King Obama to rule again: Imigration

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Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
I'm just comparing. How many locals, especially of a certain section of the society, you see cutting grass all day under 95 F heat and high humidity, that too for low wages. To provide for their family.
Those used to be called: your kids. Doing odd jobs, earning some money (heck, I made fan-flipping-tastic money mowing lawns a few summers as a kid) and getting some work experience and sense of responsibility. Now everyone is too good for any of that. Kids sit around on their fat asses playing x-box. 95 F heat??!!!?????????!!!!!! Ohhhhhh the poor dears! They might melt!

As a human being, you have to respect that. That does not mean you support illegal immigration
I don't respect people exploiting illegal labor while ruining what used to be jobs people could make a living at. You romantisize it as charged by using an example like mowing lawns...but then there's turning construction/plumbing/delivery/childcare/electrical/manufacturing/meatpacking/grocers and a whole universe of industries into shit jobs that citizens "won't do" because they now pay shit wages. (But that's cool, because a society of rockstars is too good for all that work stuff.)

So then the citizens who can no longer do those jobs and make a living are displaced and have to compete in other fields. What can they offer vs. those already in those industries? More experience? No? Work for less? Sure! Lowered wages can creep right up the scale of employment. Employers love it.. dummies cheering on illegal labor are too stupid to know any better, and politicians love increasing their power over a poorer and more dependant populace. Win win!

Yeah, we have to respect the third-wordizing of our society.
 

squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
5
46
Those used to be called: your kids. Doing odd jobs, earning some money (heck, I made fan-flipping-tastic money mowing lawns a few summers as a kid) and getting some work experience and sense of responsibility. Now everyone is too good for any of that. Kids sit around on their fat asses playing x-box. 95 F heat??!!!?????????!!!!!! Ohhhhhh the poor dears! They might melt!


.

Have the illegals made the local population lazy? No Sir, it is the general descent of a society into decadence. It is another topic though, a lengthy one. But America isn't the first and wont be the last to go this route
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
Have the illegals made the local population lazy? No Sir, it is the general descent of a society into decadence. It is another topic though, a lengthy one. But America isn't the first and wont be the last to go this route
I'm the first one to place a lot of the blame on ourselves. We put up with it, and too many people think they're too damn good for all that "hard work" stuff anyway. Work- for a society of rockstars is feet kicked up on a desk watching YouTube all day, taking home six figures. Those gigs don't even have to be competed or qualified for: they're our birthright.


Meanwhile.. anything less than that? Ship in the third world and let it all be done for peanuts. And above all- never make any connection what-so-ever between doing that and wages going to shit all around. Importing millions of illegal workers has no effect at all on special people with guaranteed incomes and all such trappings of endless wealth.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
The tea party just seems loud and racist. But that's a generalization so instead of arguing that let me crystallize my position.

I'm not a citizen so I won't comment on the "right way" to do reform.

Fine, the senate bill S.744 CIR sucked. OK. But the right thing to do is to see why it sucked and modify it accordingly. Not sing platitudes for a year and do nothing about it. "President won't enforce laws"? That's the stupidest excuse in the world. With that logic no law is worth passing because you can always accuse the federal government of not enforcing it.

No Amnesty? OK. Then come out with some concrete proposal of what to do with the millions already here. Compromise with what the other guys want, and pass something.

Just ignoring it is having the exact opposite effect. Do republicans think their majority is permanent? What happens when both houses have democratic majority at some point? Complete amnesty, with no compromise.
There IS no point in changing laws if laws are being ignored by those tasked with enforcing them. That is axiomatic and unarguable, not "the stupidest excuse in the world". An administration that does whatever it likes, ignoring the law, is going to do the same if we change the law to meet its current desires.

Second, there is no reason to do anything with the millions here. Stop the flow, then demand integration or deportation on an individual basis. Just like how one eats an elephant - one bite at a time. Currently we're growing the elephant much more quickly than we can eat it, with the result of millions of new residents who do not self-identify as Americans. Ask any nation which has faced this problem how it works out. Hell, ask the native Americans.

And third, even if the Pubbies pass mass amnesty there is nothing to stop the Dems from making immigration even easier when they are once again in total power.

How about he does his god damn job and no more?

The authority and responsibility of the executive branch is to enforce the laws AS THEY ARE WRITTEN!

Its not his job to implement his Secret New Law every year without approval from congress first. It damn sure isn't his job to radically reinterpret the existing laws so he can do whatever he feels like.
Well said.

Why didn't the unregulated immigration of the past lead to an impoverished America?
Three reasons. First, because we could use the excess labor. This is no longer the case, and new immigrants are increasingly displacing the existing populations. With automation and outsourcing we don't need as much labor as before, yet we're drastically increasing our pool of workers - especially unskilled workers.

Second, we were not then a nation of entitlements, so new arrivals had to work. Obviously this is no longer the case.

And third, the new immigrants were from quite disparate cultures - Mexicans, Brits, Germans, Swedes, Chinese, and many others. That allowed the new immigrants to coalesce around one culture, which in most but not all areas was British culture, which changed to make our own unique culture while still encouraging every culture to adopt the common tongue and adopt the major tenants of the new polyglot culture. This is no longer the case as the new immigrants overwhelmingly speak a common different tongue and share a lot of culture. Thus the new immigrants tend to self identify as Mexicans or Latinos rather than as Americans.

I could add a fourth reason as well. The previous waves of unrestrained immigrants were looking for opportunity, nothing more. They had no culture of being owed anything. (With the obvious exception of the Africans obviously, who were originally brought here against there will - rather a different thing.) Those immigrants from Mexico have been raised on a government diet of America owing them for stealing their land, and many, many Latinos have adopted that same attitude as race-based even though they are not one identifiable race but rather a diversity of races speaking a common language. I simply left it out because we've developed such a culture of entitlement on our own that theirs stands out only by virtue of being based on different factors.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Of course the end is mass poverty in the US. But the politically correct left in this country has successfully made immigration a race issue to draw the line on emotion rather than logic or facts. Of course this is the same group that blames corporations for offshoring, so clearly they don't understand the basic logic that whether you export jobs for cheap labor or import cheap labor to do jobs, the end result is the same. Expecting them to have a rational conversation about immigration is futile.

Faced with this kind of massive willful ignorance, I take care of me and my own, fuck everybody else. They've made their choice and it's poverty.

Yeah apparently they refuse to consider Econ 101 where, the price of labor, like anything else, is a function of supply and demand. This effect, as you see middle class wages collapsed from not just illegal but legal immigration as well. The beatings will continue. Hell just last year the Rubio act Doubled legal immigration. Who the fuck doubles immigration in a 7-15% unemployment environment? I think it's hilarious if it wasn't so sad for the groups they claim to represent.

The war on poverty failed too because of immigration (and outsourcing what they couldnt insource) Meanwhile Democrats whine about "poor state of the labor market” and blame rich, technological change, globalization, the decline of labor unions and the falling value of the minimum wage - meanwhile immigration and the labor supply glut is not even mentioned.

Oh yeah and they can kiss their $15 an hour good bye. These immigrates will for $3,75 hr and be happy for it.

As far as looking out for your own.. yeah I told my 3 boys Business school and Goldman Sachs or professional degree (e.g. dentist or something) or I'm not paying for it. Or you can be a looser coolie like 90% will be. I drill it home a lot pointing out the homeless and what not. They are motivated.:)
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Those used to be called: your kids. Doing odd jobs, earning some money (heck, I made fan-flipping-tastic money mowing lawns a few summers as a kid) and getting some work experience and sense of responsibility. Now everyone is too good for any of that. Kids sit around on their fat asses playing x-box. 95 F heat??!!!?????????!!!!!! Ohhhhhh the poor dears! They might melt!


I don't respect people exploiting illegal labor while ruining what used to be jobs people could make a living at. You romantisize it as charged by using an example like mowing lawns...but then there's turning construction/plumbing/delivery/childcare/electrical/manufacturing/meatpacking/grocers and a whole universe of industries into shit jobs that citizens "won't do" because they now pay shit wages. (But that's cool, because a society of rockstars is too good for all that work stuff.)

So then the citizens who can no longer do those jobs and make a living are displaced and have to compete in other fields. What can they offer vs. those already in those industries? More experience? No? Work for less? Sure! Lowered wages can creep right up the scale of employment. Employers love it.. dummies cheering on illegal labor are too stupid to know any better, and politicians love increasing their power over a poorer and more dependant populace. Win win!

Yeah, we have to respect the third-wordizing of our society.

It was like that back then too... 1984 -I started my first business at 13 got $1000 loan from my dad for two pushers and other implements (@33% intrest what a bastard right? naw he said "go to bank if you dont like it" This is your lesson boy on credit and importance of good credit") anyway made a shit ton of money. Like $17,000 in bank by time I was graduating HS because I had no competition really. Kids in costa mesa Ca didnt work cept me. They were hold up playing Atari back then.

And yup - The immigration supporters also fail to realize it's not just tons of blue-collar jobs that have had thier wages driven down. What happens is low wages go into other parts of job market as well due to vertical shift of the formerly well paid blue-collar force. I personally know tons of blue collar guys that went into IT, went back to school at 35 for accounting and other second careers. Now you have accountants, writers and lawyers that can't find work.
 
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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
There IS no point in changing laws if laws are being ignored by those tasked with enforcing them. That is axiomatic and unarguable, not "the stupidest excuse in the world". An administration that does whatever it likes, ignoring the law, is going to do the same if we change the law to meet its current desires.

Second, there is no reason to do anything with the millions here. Stop the flow, then demand integration or deportation on an individual basis. Just like how one eats an elephant - one bite at a time. Currently we're growing the elephant much more quickly than we can eat it, with the result of millions of new residents who do not self-identify as Americans. Ask any nation which has faced this problem how it works out. Hell, ask the native Americans.

And third, even if the Pubbies pass mass amnesty there is nothing to stop the Dems from making immigration even easier when they are once again in total power.


Well said.


Three reasons. First, because we could use the excess labor. This is no longer the case, and new immigrants are increasingly displacing the existing populations. With automation and outsourcing we don't need as much labor as before, yet we're drastically increasing our pool of workers - especially unskilled workers.

Second, we were not then a nation of entitlements, so new arrivals had to work. Obviously this is no longer the case.

And third, the new immigrants were from quite disparate cultures - Mexicans, Brits, Germans, Swedes, Chinese, and many others. That allowed the new immigrants to coalesce around one culture, which in most but not all areas was British culture, which changed to make our own unique culture while still encouraging every culture to adopt the common tongue and adopt the major tenants of the new polyglot culture. This is no longer the case as the new immigrants overwhelmingly speak a common different tongue and share a lot of culture. Thus the new immigrants tend to self identify as Mexicans or Latinos rather than as Americans.

I could add a fourth reason as well. The previous waves of unrestrained immigrants were looking for opportunity, nothing more. They had no culture of being owed anything. (With the obvious exception of the Africans obviously, who were originally brought here against there will - rather a different thing.) Those immigrants from Mexico have been raised on a government diet of America owing them for stealing their land, and many, many Latinos have adopted that same attitude as race-based even though they are not one identifiable race but rather a diversity of races speaking a common language. I simply left it out because we've developed such a culture of entitlement on our own that theirs stands out only by virtue of being based on different factors.
Not to mention since at least 1850s we had immigration quotas. Even barred immigration many times when congress worked for the people rather than multinational corporations. Vics whole premise is wrong. We never had "unregulated immigration"

In 1932 President Roosevelt and the State Department essentially shut down immigration during the Great Depression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ation_and_naturalization_in_the_United_States

Instead our current traitors DOUBLED legal immigration during the great recession with the Rubio Bill and won't enforce immigration laws.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Not to mention since at least 1850s we had immigration quotas. Even barred immigration many times when congress worked for the people rather than multinational corporations. Vics whole premise is wrong. We never had "unregulated immigration"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ation_and_naturalization_in_the_United_States

Instead our current traitors DOUBLED legal immigration during the great recession with the Rubio Bill and won't enforce immigration laws.
I may be wrong, but I thought our first actual quotas were from the 1921 immigration bill. Prior to that we had exclusion classes and strict limits on naturalization, many of which were in direct conflict with the 14th Amendment.

At some point, immigration law veered away from the best interests of the nation and into the best interests of the political class.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
First of all - Since trip costed a house we always had a quota. Then China exclusion act was 1850s or 70s from then on we shut down borders culminating in NO IMMIGRATION in the 1930s and 1940s with FDR. It;s complete bullshit to say we had unregulated immigration until now I guess.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
How has our nation raised so very many that feel that purposefully importing unskilled people from other nations and then supporting them with borrowed money is some kind of recipe for success?

Sometimes I wonder where the escape hatch is. Where does one go on this planet to escape this type of thinking? Perhaps death is the only escape.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Not to mention since at least 1850s we had immigration quotas. Even barred immigration many times when congress worked for the people rather than multinational corporations. Vics whole premise is wrong. We never had "unregulated immigration"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...ation_and_naturalization_in_the_United_States

Instead our current traitors DOUBLED legal immigration during the great recession with the Rubio Bill and won't enforce immigration laws.

So in other words FDR, widely considered a liberal hero, was to the right of "teahadists" on immigration...
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
How has our nation raised so very many that feel that purposefully importing unskilled people from other nations and then supporting them with borrowed money is some kind of recipe for success?

Sometimes I wonder where the escape hatch is. Where does one go on this planet to escape this type of thinking? Perhaps death is the only escape.

Naw...your smart enough to rise above riff raff. Then make immigration to someplace that has standards. I'd be in Canada or NZ by now cept I still have kids in school.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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81
So in other words FDR, widely considered a liberal hero, was to the right of "teahadists" on immigration...

You should have heard him on public employee unions. I'm not ashamed to say Im A FDR democrat. Party left me about 1980s. All parties left everyone in the 1990s lol
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,183
55,744
136
Naw...your smart enough to rise above riff raff. Then make immigration to someplace that has standards. I'd be in Canada or NZ by now cept I still have kids in school.

You realize that a greater proportion of Canada's population are immigrants than the US, right? Additionally, they are seeing greater proportional inflows than we are.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
You realize that a greater proportion of Canada's population are immigrants than the US, right? Additionally, they are seeing greater proportional inflows than we are.

And how many of those immigrants are unaccompanied children that were coyotoed across the border?

All immigrants are not equal.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,247
10,535
136
How has our nation raised so very many that feel that purposefully importing unskilled people from other nations and then supporting them with borrowed money is some kind of recipe for success?

The same kind who believe the government deficit spending = prosperity. Reaganomics, as both Republicans and Democrats have embraced.

Sometimes I wonder where the escape hatch is. Where does one go on this planet to escape this type of thinking? Perhaps death is the only escape.

The West's propensity for self destruction is not shared by many nations around the world. There are closed societies out there, some of them are horrific... others... not so bad. Good luck immigrating to one.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
You realize that a greater proportion of Canada's population are immigrants than the US, right? Additionally, they are seeing greater proportional inflows than we are.

so they are 30m we are 350m for same size. Makes a difference on sustainability, wages and quality of life. They could probly take 100m immigrants and it would be America 1950s

I spend a month a year in Canada already and its a different world.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
so they are 30m we are 350m for same size. Makes a difference on sustainability, wages and quality of life. They could probly take 100m immigrants and it would be America 1950s

I spend a month a year in Canada already and its a different world.

You spend a month in cottage country Canada, and that's a different world then any major city Canada
 

squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
5
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So somewhat predictably, the knives are out against LEGAL immigration by the likes of Zebo, who has amply demonstrated his racist attitude towards a certain group in many of his posts on this forum. Never mind the fact that America has greatly benefited and continues to do so by attracting immigrants from all over the world. Our country's competitive edge over the years is in large part to the talents of the immigrants, in various fields like medicine, computer science, finance and on and on. Not to mention the social benefits of diversity in a society.

But this isn't about one poster or another. It is really the crux of the matter. There are many Americans who are against illegal immigration but are enlightened, open minded people who have had extensive experience with other cultures either within and/or outside America.

At the same time, such people do not want to be associated with the loudest voices against illegal immigration because there is a strong racist element in that. Coming from the backwater types. The kind who have never ventured outside of their little holes in the ground.

It is a bit like - who would want to support Al Sharpton even if the cause is legally sound? Because you know his motives have nothing to do with the law or economics.

It is the same reason many people who can otherwise identify with many conservative causes have no time for the Republican party which over the years has turned into a refuge for all sorts of bigots and racists.

It is a pretty sad state of affairs, but that is current day America for you.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Racist? That dog wont hunt with me. Just a numbers game and bad economics. I hired more minorities than anyone in this forum guarantee it. In fact I prefer em. My parents are immigrants so I recognize a good seed when i see it. What I said racist?
 
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I'm the first one to place a lot of the blame on ourselves. We put up with it, and too many people think they're too damn good for all that "hard work" stuff anyway. Work- for a society of rockstars is feet kicked up on a desk watching YouTube all day, taking home six figures. Those gigs don't even have to be competed or qualified for: they're our birthright.


Meanwhile.. anything less than that? Ship in the third world and let it all be done for peanuts. And above all- never make any connection what-so-ever between doing that and wages going to shit all around. Importing millions of illegal workers has no effect at all on special people with guaranteed incomes and all such trappings of endless wealth.

Well said.
 

squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
5
46
Racist? That dog wont hunt with me. Just a numbers game and bad economics. I hired more minorities than anyone in this forum guarantee it. In fact I prefer em.

With what you espouse about Muslims, the vast generalizations and so on...that would be a classic definition of racism.

But again, this isn't about you. I was making an overall point about the right wing which is not taken seriously by vast sections of the society even when they talk about something legally sound, because of the obnoxious xenophobic element in that section.

Heck, most immigrants are conservative by nature, socially, economically. Yet the Republican party has become the exclusive domain of the white man and his real and imaginary angst. It doesn't have to be like this, if only they could open their minds and hearts. But that is by definition just about impossible for the xenophobic types.
 

xBiffx

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2011
8,232
2
0
With what you espouse about Muslims, the vast generalizations and so on...that would be a classic definition of racism.

Pretty difficult to be racist against a religion. And the left takes the cake on being anti-religion.