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Kickstarter Is The Biggest Scam On The Internet

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Patranus said:
I am also perplexed as to why 75% of the posts by people who always think they are the smartest person in the room cannot come up with any real argument other than basis personal attacks.

I guess when you cannot attack an argument on its merits you have to play the race card of the internet.
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no, you've just ignored the fact that everyone is telling you that investors are getting something in return, and in the cases where something doesn't pan out, the risk is quite minimal.

$15 risk? clearly, you aren't the 1% I took you for. :colbert:

Hell, you even explained it earlier replying to me--you put in $15 and get $15 back. Then, you try to change your argument--"Where is thr profit??"

so, what is it? you now accept that there is zero risk, and that this is not "panhandling?"

sand in vagina--there's an app for that.

simply because you don't listen to and/or understand people's explanations, it doesn't mean that "they have no real argument."

lol
 
busydude said:
It's a freaking video game. What ROI do you expect from that?

Minecraft developers did the same thing.. did you see anyone complaining about their ROI?
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Minecraft has generated more than $40,000,000.
Lets say for instance they raised $100,000 on Kickstarter in $100 donations and those donations got a copy of the game. Lets also say that Minecraft cost $500,000 (probably too high) to develop.

Now, that $100,000 on Kickstarter accounts for 20% of the development cost. that would also mean that 1,000 people joined in on Kickstarter.

Now that $500,000 development cost was leveraged into $40,000,000. 20% of $40,000,000 is $8,000,000. Now on a per donation basis, that is $8,000 made off people who simply gave them $100.
 
Patranus said:
Minecraft has generated more than $40,000,000.
Lets say for instance they raised $100,000 on Kickstarter in $100 donations and those donations got a copy of the game. Lets also say that Minecraft cost $500,000 (probably too high) to develop.

Now, that $100,000 on Kickstarter accounts for 20% of the development cost. that would also mean that 1,000 people joined in on Kickstarter.

Now that $500,000 development cost was leveraged into $40,000,000. 20% of $40,000,000 is $8,000,000. Now on a per donation basis, that is $8,000 made off people who simply gave them $100.
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The recipients got a game that they would not have otherwise gotten (roi be damned because that's not their motive/incentive for throwing in money)
 
Patranus said:
So you are taking all of the risk with no return on your investment vs the company owner has takes almost no risk and reaps all of the reward.
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The product is the "return". I'm perfectly happy with that arrangment. I'm not looking to pad a portfolio with $15 worth of share in a startup. I'm looking to buy a product that otherwise wouldn't be available to me.

The inventor has to come through on their promise, or face a probable lawsuit from the investors. Projects don't receive a dime unless their funding goals are met within a specified deadline. Risk is pretty minimal as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Ns1 said:
The recipients got a game that they would not have otherwise gotten (roi be damned because that's not their motive/incentive for throwing in money)
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The ROI for the person that put money in is the entertainment value gained from that game.
Our clueless OP also seems to be forgetting that the people that put in more than the base required investment of $15 would be getting something else (in the way of swag and early access to the beta) from the developer.
 
Patranus said:
Not saying I am not ok with it, people are free to piss away their money however they see fit, but it is a pretty stupid to not get any return on your investment while taking on all of the risk.
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It's not an investment.

Supporters of kickstarter projects get two benefits:
1. A product that likely wouldn't even exist without crowdfunding.
2. Usually some discount and/or benefit that future purchasers won't get.

It's great for niche products that can't be produced without proof that there is a market for the product. I play a lot of board games that have print runs as small as 1000-5000 copies, and Kickstarter is becoming a popular way for small publishers to fund their games. Typically they'll set overfunding goals so that kickstarter backers will get upgraded game components, expansions included with the base game, etc.

From everything I've read, there's very little risk when backing kickstarter projects. And if there was a game I really wanted to see developed, I'd be willing to risk the cost of lunch to hopefully see it developed.

Your assessment of kickstarter is uninformed.
 
Patranus said:
Now on a per donation basis, that is $8,000 made off people who simply gave them $100.
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By your logic.. every company that has R&D should give their current customers a ROI. They effectively become share holders. If I buy an apple product right now.. a certain % of the profit they made will be invested into R&D. So.. if I buy a sandybridge based Macbook right now.. I should get a ROI on the profits they made on Macbooks based on Ivy bridge.

I chose apple because I know you are a rabid fanboy.
 
Patranus said:
What are they getting in return.

If I invest $15 and get a $15 video game I have risked my $15 to make $15 worth of product back. Now the publisher has that $15 and can multiply that into $100 worth of revenue thus getting a return on your money while you get zero return.
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they are getting to use the product in return which is perfectly fine by them. Its like telling the developer/inventor "I'd like to use this certain product but none like it exists currently in the market. I'm glad to see that you're proposing to develop it. Oh you don't have enough money? No problem, I'll gladly help fund part of it so that you can bring it to market so that I can use it. If there's enough interest from others and the project funds, great, I trust you'll develop it as promised. If there's not enough interest and the project doesn't fund, I get my money back."

yea there's a risk that the inventor might scam me and run with my money. But its a risk I'm willing to take if I want the product badly enough. I have only backed one project on kickstarter - the capture camera clip system. I hate camera neckstraps. I saw that the capture clip system will allow me to carry around my dslr w/o a neckstrap. I wanted it...so I funded it...which got me a capture device...which made me happy.

what's so inherently wrong with this setup?
 
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Aharami said:
I saw that the capture clip system will allow me to carry around my dslr w/o a neckstrap. I wanted it...so I funded it...which got me a capture device...which made me happy.
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And you got it for $30 less than MSRP when it was released to market. Love my Capture Clip. :thumbsup:
 
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its more a pre-pay for the game. i have no issue with it at all $15 is nothing. welll worth the risk.
 
busydude said:
By your logic.. every company that has R&D should give their current customers a ROI. They effectively become share holders. If I buy an apple product right now.. a certain % of the profit they made will be invested into R&D. So.. if I buy a sandybridge based Macbook right now.. I should get a ROI on the profits they made on Macbooks based on Ivy bridge.

I chose apple because I know you are a rabid fanboy.
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THere you go with the name calling again.

Anyways. When you buy a MacBook, you are buying a product that already exists and the R&D that went into the product occurred prior to you buying the product.

Now, if you are talking about the seed money for Apple, to build the original computer than yes, you are paying for R&D otherwise all of the R&D is an extension of that original seed money which generated the revenue to fund further R&D.
 
Think of it as modern day patronage. It's how artists and writers use to make a living. Someone, usually wealthy, valued the artistic creativity more than the economic gain that could be made from that art.

Nowadays instead of a few wealthy people supporting something like that, modern technology allows large masses of the middle class to support such projects.
 
Paladin3 said:
Dude, you swung and you missed. Now it's time to walk away from the plate and go sit down.

You can break your bat on your way back to the dugout if it will make you feel any better.
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Don't bother with a P&N'er whose username means "father's asshole".
I'll never understand that one.
 
I love it when somebody makes a self-own thread, and refuses to back out of it. It's like the gift that keeps on giving.

Keep up the good work, PatrAnus.
 
Hey OP, how many frivolous purchases have you made in your entire lifetime? Packs of gum? Soda at a convenience store? Add all that up.

Your drop in the bucket applies for everyone else except in this case people are donating because they are supporting a product which they hope will go into production.

PS: Your thread does fail. Take out the plank in your eye before trying to remove the speck in others.
 
mugs said:
It's great for niche products that can't be produced without proof that there is a market for the product. I play a lot of board games that have print runs as small as 1000-5000 copies, and Kickstarter is becoming a popular way for small publishers to fund their games. Typically they'll set overfunding goals so that kickstarter backers will get upgraded game components, expansions included with the base game, etc.

From everything I've read, there's very little risk when backing kickstarter projects. And if there was a game I really wanted to see developed, I'd be willing to risk the cost of lunch to hopefully see it developed.

Your assessment of kickstarter is uninformed.
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Exactly, I have a great board game called Flash Point: Fire Rescue that was funded by Kickstarter (for those familiar with German games, the gameplay is a lot like Pandemic).
 
Patranus said:
What are they getting in return.

If I invest $15 and get a $15 video game I have risked my $15 to make $15 worth of product back. Now the publisher has that $15 and can multiply that into $100 worth of revenue thus getting a return on your money while you get zero return.
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You missed the part where you get to play a game that wouldn't have existed without the $15.
 
Patranus said:
Oh, don't get me wrong, its a great model for a business trying to raise money but anyone donating money to one of these companies is being very stupid.

Its internet panhandeling.
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So, it is sort of like a startup that pays stock options. The employee is donating part of their salary with the hope that some day the options are worth something.

Then one day, that one-in-a-million startup hits it big has to start paying out options to their first employees. The CEO determines that some early employees really aren't worth the options they were given. So, in essence, the CEO wants some employees to retroactively donate their time so other, newer, more productive employees can benefit. The donated time is now worth millions.

Or, yet another startup pays out millions in options to a chef who was one of their earliest employees.

But, I guess neither of these scenarios are realistic in a rational world.
 
Kickstarter is a scam because it allows people, like the game company in the OP, to abuse it. The idea of Kickstarter is to help people who have no means, realize their dreams. So stories like someone trying to build a camera strap from a Sketchup drawing but doesn't already own a machine shop or have manufacturing capabilities. That's what it's meant for.

But now, you have established companies with the means and talent to build or create products, using Kickstarter as a guaranteed PRE-ORDER service. There's nothing wrong with pre-selling products but on Kickstarter, you are misleading people into thinking you are some sort of poor college kid trying to get your first venture going.

It also somehow makes things "OK" for companies. I would never pre-buy a $10 Steam Game. Why would it? But now because it's on Kickstarter I should? Why should a game company get $1M, 8 months early?
 
sygyzy said:
Kickstarter is a scam because it allows people, like the game company in the OP, to abuse it. The idea of Kickstarter is to help people who have no means, realize their dreams. So stories like someone trying to build a camera strap from a Sketchup drawing but doesn't already own a machine shop or have manufacturing capabilities. That's what it's meant for.

But now, you have established companies with the means and talent to build or create products, using Kickstarter as a guaranteed PRE-ORDER service. There's nothing wrong with pre-selling products but on Kickstarter, you are misleading people into thinking you are some sort of poor college kid trying to get your first venture going.

It also somehow makes things "OK" for companies. I would never pre-buy a $10 Steam Game. Why would it? But now because it's on Kickstarter I should? Why should a game company get $1M, 8 months early?
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i agree with this. kickstarter should only be for individuals/groups who dont have the means to bring the product to market. still dont think kickstarter is a scam though, because no one is getting scammed out of their money.
 
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