Just got a C for my final grade in a class

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yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,409
39
91
Originally posted by: postmortemIA
If you understand more, you would have shown it by doing better or equal to others at all parts that contribute toward the grade.

but I couldn't be arsed to spend 18 hours copying 15 pages of question and answers from the book that's nothing but a waste of time.

with that reasoning you will never be a good student.

Yeah, because a good student is one that does a lot of work. :roll:
More proof of why america's education system is ****** up.
This is why we have valedictorians that can't pass the exit exam. Merit is all based on effort these days, and little on competency.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
:roll:
It's not about who's fault or who's to blame(did I even blame anyone?). It's about being rational.
Your grade isn't there to reflect your effort, it's there to reflect how well you understand the material. I haven't had one single professor that wouldn't have given me a B based on my final grade/lab grade.
My physics professor dropped my homework grade, as it dropped my overall grade by 5%. My last chem professor gave me a B since I had an 88% exam average, but a 15% homework average.
Your kind of thinking is what's wrong with the education system. The education system is about learning, not doing a bunch of busy work.
One thing you don't seem to be grasping (and neither did I as an undergrad) is that a lot of real work is busywork. If you can't be bothered to do the mundane, day-to-day details of your work, then the professor has the option of reflecting that in your grade. This tells potential future employers/grad schools that you are not on par with those who scored higher than you. Life lesson #325: the hard worker can get ahead of the guy who thinks he's so smart that he doesn't have to try. You are in school to learn, to be sure. But your GPA is there as a beacon to those who have to differentiate between you and your classmates.

That, and your professor has been doing this a lot longer than you have. He assigns the homework so that you'll actually do it, not so that you just have to copy it. Had you done the homework, you probably would have gotten better grades on your exams and this wouldn't be an issue. Instead, you assumed that, since the answers were in the back of the book, there was no reason to actually do the homework. Grading is the worst part of teaching (as I'm painfully aware, having taught 5 classes now). It is solely for the benefit of the students that homework is assigned.
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,409
39
91
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
:roll:
It's not about who's fault or who's to blame(did I even blame anyone?). It's about being rational.
Your grade isn't there to reflect your effort, it's there to reflect how well you understand the material. I haven't had one single professor that wouldn't have given me a B based on my final grade/lab grade.
My physics professor dropped my homework grade, as it dropped my overall grade by 5%. My last chem professor gave me a B since I had an 88% exam average, but a 15% homework average.
Your kind of thinking is what's wrong with the education system. The education system is about learning, not doing a bunch of busy work.
One thing you don't seem to be grasping (and neither did I as an undergrad) is that a lot of real work is busywork. If you can't be bothered to do the mundane, day-to-day details of your work, then the professor has the option of reflecting that in your grade. This tells potential future employers/grad schools that you are not on par with those who scored higher than you. Life lesson #325: the hard worker can get ahead of the guy who thinks he's so smart that he doesn't have to try. You are in school to learn, to be sure. But your GPA is there as a beacon to those who have to differentiate between you and your classmates.

That, and your professor has been doing this a lot longer than you have. He assigns the homework so that you'll actually do it, not so that you just have to copy it. Had you done the homework, you probably would have gotten better grades on your exams and this wouldn't be an issue. Instead, you assumed that, since the answers were in the back of the book, there was no reason to actually do the homework. Grading is the worst part of teaching (as I'm painfully aware, having taught 5 classes now). It is solely for the benefit of the students that homework is assigned.
The thing is, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
Someone getting a B because he could do a lot of work might do better in labor positions, but not in positions where critical thinking and reasoning is required. Someone who do well on the tests but does very little work, would do much better than the former guy in positions where critical thinking and reasoning is required.
This is why if grades reflected how much work you did, rather than just your competency, it would fail to be an accurate guide for job competency.
And if you want to talk about graduate school, there would be less reason for having effort reflected in grades. Graduate school requires much more thinking and much less busy work. Thus, those who got ahead by just doing work would fall behind in graduate school.
Your kind of thinking is probably why there are so many incompetent doctors these days. Doctors that have zero ability to think outside of the box and can only diagnose based on facts memorized straight of a text book. Let them encounter a few unseen symptoms, and they don't know what to do.



 

Stumps

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2001
7,125
0
0
Originally posted by: DainBramaged
My lowest was an A++++++++++++++++++++.

It came from a fellow ebay member. I was like, damn, only 20 pluses? How did I slip up? Oh well.

It's what you get for mailing me a brick...instead of the pron.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
The thing is, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
Someone getting a B because he could do a lot of work might do better in labor positions, but not in positions where critical thinking and reasoning is required. Someone who do well on the tests but does very little work, would do much better than the former guy in positions where critical thinking and reasoning is required.
But your professor only has the opportunity to indicate one time your adequacy. He has selected his grading scheme accordingly. Since it sounds like you're a freshman and, therefore, probably taking gen chem, if you only get a BS degree in chemistry or biology, you won't need to do much critical thinking. You'll be doing lots of busywork. This is the target audience for these classes, whether you are getting a degree in chemistry or biology or something else. I'm a chemical engineer who went through the exact same thing seven years ago. My suggestion is to buck up and get used to it.
This is why if grades reflected how much work you did, rather than just your competency, it would fail to be an accurate guide for job competency.
And if I gave you an A based on your performance in the class, I would be promoting laziness. I doubt that's a quality many companies are looking for, especially in lab techs, which is what you'll likely be in about four years if my above guesses are anywhere close to on the mark.
And if you want to talk about graduate school, there would be less reason for having effort reflected in grades. Graduate school requires much more thinking and much less busy work. Thus, those who got ahead by just doing work would fall behind in graduate school.
Wrong. As a fourth year grad student, I am painfully aware that the moments of genius are few and far between. The gaps between them are bridged by drudgery and hard work. Unless you're Heisenberg (whose PhD dissertation was 4-5 pages originally), you're going to be doing a LOT of busywork to get it done. Even Heisenberg was sent back to the labs to make his thesis longer, even though his original work was Nobel Prize-worthy.
Your kind of thinking is probably why there are so many incompetent doctors these days. Doctors that have zero ability to think outside of the box and can only diagnose based on facts memorized straight of a text book. Let them encounter a few unseen symptoms, and they don't know what to do.
I'm an engineer, not a doctor. I dropped the MD portion of the PhD/MD because I learned that just about all of med school is memorization, which I deplore. However, MD's ('real doctors' :p) spend the years after med school learning critical thinking as an application of their years of memorization. That's the entire point of residency.

I suggest you calm down and take a step back from your immediate circumstances (i.e. being pissed at the world because you screwed up and got a C - boo hoo). I'm in my eighth year of college and you're probably in your first. Perspective is a great teacher, so maybe you could try to learn something from mine since you lack your own.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: neutralizer
Ugh, just got a C+ in signals and systems. Did well in the class, but somehow bombed the final.

That happened to me in control systems. I'm pretty sure, walking out of the final for my Theory of Positive integers class that I got a C. I walked into that test needing 116/120 to get a B and 36/120 to get a C. Kinda depressing but I guess I'll have to deal.

Edit: 3A's and a C aren't too bad. Usually it's a A/B average, but I'm just not good at pulling proofs out of my ass and the prof was a crotchety old man.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: djheater
Straight A's, Community college though, so I think my teachers are just rewarding me for being able to form a coherent sentence.

There are people in my class older than 30 not able to grasp the carbon cycle.

2/3 of my class failed or dropped college algebra...

And this is a university...

Granted the course was exceptionally hard for algebra... but... its still algebra.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
My grades arent in yet, but ive got A's in 3 out of 4 courses for sure, possible B+ in one, i went in with a 96% average but got killed on the final that was 20% of our grade, so i dont know where im gonna land.
 

rocadelpunk

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2001
5,589
1
81
Homework is rarely just busywork, maybe if you are in an intro course, but the majority of classes it reinforces concepts and puts it into long term memory. My point being, homework is an important part of the grade, as important as a test score or lab...it demonstrates proficiency throughout the term.

Hypothetically, what about someone who simply just crammed the night before and aced the test, but then forgets it all next week.
What about a student who didn't do well on the labs b/c they skipped too many (i.e. skipping homework), but aces everything else.

Hypothetically, what about a student who performed exlempary all term and knows the material, but got sick during finals week or whose parent died and didn't do well.

Things happen: there are a million scenarios where a grade does/doesn't represent one's proficiency in a subject/task.

This is generally why a test/lab grade/homework is not the whole of your grade, but just a portion...Your grade is *knowingly* broken down and weighted. As a *mature* college student, you should be able to recognize that

a.)you can read a syllabus and know the course *rules* without having to be explicitly told them

b.)you can accept responsibility for your actions.

c.)your grades are just *a part* of your academic record

d.)your grade is meant to represent proficiency...but, just performing well on a test and in lab doesn't necessarily demonstrate that. Again, a million possible scenarios could be conjured up...the point being is nearly all classes are broken up into several aspects and weighted according to the professor's/department's liking. This is done, for the benefit of the student, and for the program as to get an A or a B bears more meaning, as it helps eliminate many of these hypothetical situations.


 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,409
39
91
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
The thing is, it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
Someone getting a B because he could do a lot of work might do better in labor positions, but not in positions where critical thinking and reasoning is required. Someone who do well on the tests but does very little work, would do much better than the former guy in positions where critical thinking and reasoning is required.
But your professor only has the opportunity to indicate one time your adequacy. He has selected his grading scheme accordingly. Since it sounds like you're a freshman and, therefore, probably taking gen chem, if you only get a BS degree in chemistry or biology, you won't need to do much critical thinking. You'll be doing lots of busywork. This is the target audience for these classes, whether you are getting a degree in chemistry or biology or something else. I'm a chemical engineer who went through the exact same thing seven years ago. My suggestion is to buck up and get used to it.
This is why if grades reflected how much work you did, rather than just your competency, it would fail to be an accurate guide for job competency.
And if I gave you an A based on your performance in the class, I would be promoting laziness. I doubt that's a quality many companies are looking for, especially in lab techs, which is what you'll likely be in about four years if my above guesses are anywhere close to on the mark.
And if you want to talk about graduate school, there would be less reason for having effort reflected in grades. Graduate school requires much more thinking and much less busy work. Thus, those who got ahead by just doing work would fall behind in graduate school.
Wrong. As a fourth year grad student, I am painfully aware that the moments of genius are few and far between. The gaps between them are bridged by drudgery and hard work. Unless you're Heisenberg (whose PhD dissertation was 4-5 pages originally), you're going to be doing a LOT of busywork to get it done. Even Heisenberg was sent back to the labs to make his thesis longer, even though his original work was Nobel Prize-worthy.
Your kind of thinking is probably why there are so many incompetent doctors these days. Doctors that have zero ability to think outside of the box and can only diagnose based on facts memorized straight of a text book. Let them encounter a few unseen symptoms, and they don't know what to do.
I'm an engineer, not a doctor. I dropped the MD portion of the PhD/MD because I learned that just about all of med school is memorization, which I deplore. However, MD's ('real doctors' :p) spend the years after med school learning critical thinking as an application of their years of memorization. That's the entire point of residency.

I suggest you calm down and take a step back from your immediate circumstances (i.e. being pissed at the world because you screwed up and got a C - boo hoo). I'm in my eighth year of college and you're probably in your first. Perspective is a great teacher, so maybe you could try to learn something from mine since you lack your own.

The fact is, most people studying science majors in college do not stop at a bachelors. There are few positions a bachelor of science can hold. The only exception is probably engineering, which is more focused on critical thinking and problem solving, rather than busy work. It's simply not worth paying 80 grand for a bachelors, and spending 4 years when there are far better paying jobs that doesn't require that premium.
Most positions in science require very little busy work, but much more competent knowledge in the field - professors, researchers, engineers. Therefore, setting up the merit system to reflect effort is plain illogical.
Save the busy work for high school. Most professors share my perspective on busy work anyways. Out of all of the professors I've had(I'm on my 3rd year btw), this is the only one who was: rigid on homework, assigned pure busy work, and uncoincidently, this is the only one that has a lecture consisting entirely of copying down lecture notes onto a board and having students copying it down.
Nearly all professors assign homework, but very few professors counts it towards your grade - and for a good reason.

 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,409
39
91
Originally posted by: rocadelpunk
Homework is rarely just busywork, maybe if you are in an intro course, but the majority of classes it reinforces concepts and puts it into long term memory. My point being, homework is an important part of the grade, as important as a test score or lab...it demonstrates proficiency throughout the term.

It's interesting how you state reinforcing concepts and putting it into long term memory. Those two seem like the very two qualities that are neglected by schools today. When was the last time your math class asked conceptual problems or explained how each of the theories learned works? Instead, math classes are taught with magical equations meant to be memorized for the test. Teachers and professors arbitrarily state out equations for you to copy down, and you're sent home to use these equations to practice doing problems. Where are the concepts in that? Learning concepts is what puts things into long term memory. When was the last time you've met someone that remembered what they learned in calculus class? Most people forget it less than a year after they take it. That has to do with how ineffective the homework is, not if they did it or not.
You should read this little page on epistemology, it'll explain to you how ass backwards the traditional education system is
But unfortunately, you're probably like most that can't think outside of the box and just accepts common wisdom.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
The fact is, most people studying science majors in college do not stop at a bachelors. There are few positions a bachelor of science can hold. The only exception is probably engineering, which is more focused on critical thinking and problem solving, rather than busy work. It's simply not worth paying 80 grand for a bachelors, and spending 4 years when there are far better paying jobs that doesn't require that premium.
Wrong again, at least for chemistry and biology majors. Less than 40% go on to attain higher degrees. Making $40-50k after four years is a lot better than they'd be doing with a high school diploma. It sounds like you plan on grad school and assume that others are also planning on grad school, but that is the minority.
Most positions in science require very little busy work, but much more competent knowledge in the field - professors, researchers, engineers.
Wrong again. Most of science is repetition, which is the job of the lab tech. You perform several analyses over and over again. If you're lucky, you might get a job where you develop these analyses, but that is marginally better, at best. I've done both of these, and it was more brainless than my previous jobs as a construction worker, janitor, and vacuum cleaner salesman. In fact, being a salesman was sometimes more intellectually stimulating and certainly more financially rewarding than my current career path, but it also sucks your life (and soul) away.
Save the busy work for high school. Most professors share my perspective on busy work anyways. Out of all of the professors I've had(I'm on my 3rd year btw), this is the only one who was: rigid on homework, assigned pure busy work, and uncoincidently, this is the only one that has a lecture consisting entirely of copying down lecture notes onto a board and having students copying it down.
Then you've been insanely 'lucky' to this point or your school is unusual. I've had many professors more than you and all but one required homework that was a significant portion of my grade. The one who didn't required that we do it and turn it in to pass the course (600 level transport phenomena - you couldn't quite copy the answer out of the back of the book).
Nearly all professors assign homework, but very few professors counts it towards your grade - and for a good reason.
What school do you go to? I want to know to be sure that I don't accidentally hire anyone from there, as they won't have retained anything.

But all of this is just a red herring you are throwing at me. The bottom line is that you knew the rules, they were easy to follow, and you didn't because you're lazy. You went out drinking instead of copying answers (or *gasp* actually DOING the homework) and now you have a C. Cry me a river. If you confront the dean to try to get your grade changed, I hope she kicks you out of the program, since you've demonstrated your sloth and lax work habits to the point where you will be a poor representative of the school.
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,409
39
91
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
But all of this is just a red herring you are throwing at me. The bottom line is that you knew the rules, they were easy to follow, and you didn't because you're lazy. You went out drinking instead of copying answers (or *gasp* actually DOING the homework) and now you have a C. Cry me a river. If you confront the dean to try to get your grade changed, I hope she kicks you out of the program, since you've demonstrated your sloth and lax work habits to the point where you will be a poor representative of the school.

OK, so I'm a whining lazy slot, with lax work habits, because I find my time better spent studying the concepts rather than doing meaningless work that contributes little to my understanding of the subject?
It's your simplistic and arrogant attitude that makes up all the irrational, rigid, boneheaded, incompetent people in society.
 

ColdFusion718

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2000
3,496
9
81
Originally posted by: DainBramaged
My lowest was an A++++++++++++++++++++.

It came from a fellow ebay member. I was like, damn, only 20 pluses? How did I slip up? Oh well.

This made me laugh for some reason.
 

rocadelpunk

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2001
5,589
1
81
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: rocadelpunk
Homework is rarely just busywork, maybe if you are in an intro course, but the majority of classes it reinforces concepts and puts it into long term memory. My point being, homework is an important part of the grade, as important as a test score or lab...it demonstrates proficiency throughout the term.

It's interesting how you state reinforcing concepts and putting it into long term memory. Those two seem like the very two qualities that are neglected by schools today. When was the last time your math class asked conceptual problems or explained how each of the theories learned works? Instead, math classes are taught with magical equations meant to be memorized for the test. Teachers and professors arbitrarily state out equations for you to copy down, and you're sent home to use these equations to practice doing problems. Where are the concepts in that? Learning concepts is what puts things into long term memory. When was the last time you've met someone that remembered what they learned in calculus class? Most people forget it less than a year after they take it. That has to do with how ineffective the homework is, not if they did it or not.
You should read this little page on epistemology, it'll explain to you how ass backwards the traditional education system is
But unfortunately, you're probably like most that can't think outside of the box and just accepts common wisdom.

That paragraph is ridden with so much fallacy, it's almost impossible to even begin tackling.

forgetting something after a year doesn't mean the homework or teaching was ineffective. It probably means that you haven't touched or thought of the material.

I'm not gonna go into why you just started talking about lously teachers, or taking my words out of context or began talking about rote memorization.


Yes, I agree, there are many things currently wrong with the education system.

I would like to think I'm actually quite creative, at least most professors have noted that about me. This is coming from someone who has been successful at electrical engineering, yet switched to pure math and loves to write papers.

From your remarks...your age is pretty obvious. My advice, coming from a senior and as others have stated...

do the work.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
OK, so I'm a whining lazy slot, with lax work habits, because I find my time better spent studying the concepts rather than doing meaningless work that contributes little to my understanding of the subject?
See, the problem is that you did NOT spend those 18 hours studying. If you had, you would have done better on the exams. The real problem here is that you failed to demonstrate proficiency on the exams, else you would have achieved a B even without doing the homework. Hence my calling you a whiner.
It's your simplistic and arrogant attitude that makes up all the irrational, rigid, boneheaded, incompetent people in society.
Ah, and when all else fails, resort to ad hominems. Let me know when you grow up a little bit so we can continue the discussion. Until then, continue calling everyone who disagrees with you 'arrogant' so we can appreciate the irony. :D
 

dethman

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
10,263
3
76
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
But all of this is just a red herring you are throwing at me. The bottom line is that you knew the rules, they were easy to follow, and you didn't because you're lazy. You went out drinking instead of copying answers (or *gasp* actually DOING the homework) and now you have a C. Cry me a river. If you confront the dean to try to get your grade changed, I hope she kicks you out of the program, since you've demonstrated your sloth and lax work habits to the point where you will be a poor representative of the school.

OK, so I'm a whining lazy slot, with lax work habits, because I find my time better spent studying the concepts rather than doing meaningless work that contributes little to my understanding of the subject?

no, he means study the concepts AND do the busy work required of you to earn an excellent grade.

virtualgames, you will realize at some point that whether we like it or not, we all have to work within the system in which live. whether it be high school, college, grad school, or a job, it is unusual that trying to circumvent this unfortunate system will lead to any real gains. sometimes it works, and you can certainly try it, but i doubt you will get your grade improved or lead you to where you want to go. from that, you will learn. there are just too many college students, you are just an ant to them, and professors need to evaluate students they don't know with as much objective data as they can collect.

i graduated summa cum laude from college and got through med school without too much effort, so i could have walked into any of my classes' finals and just took it and done fine without doing the majority of homework. it doesn't mean that THAT method would have been the most effective way of leading me to my goals.

i too would have liked to skip all the boring nonsense of college and med school and focused on learning concepts, facts, critical thinking, but when you get to the real world and get a job, you will realize that whatever you do, you will still be inundated with paperwork, nonsense tasks, TPS reports, and stuff that will be unstimulating and mundane as copying answers from a back of a book.

maybe you are too young to know, i don't know. but you can do whatever you wish, in the end, it's your GPA on your CV.
 

DVK916

Banned
Dec 12, 2005
2,765
0
0
18 hours of homework in 1 semester is nothing at all. You should have done it, since it was so little. No one should have sympathy for your lazy ass. Most of my classes have 20 hours home a week.
 

yhelothar

Lifer
Dec 11, 2002
18,409
39
91
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Ah, and when all else fails, resort to ad hominems. Let me know when you grow up a little bit so we can continue the discussion. Until then, continue calling everyone who disagrees with you 'arrogant' so we can appreciate the irony. :D
Ah, but I only used it as a response to your ad hominems.
Pot meets kettle.
:roll: