John Carmack: the PC platform is not as important as the consoles

[WhipperSnapper]

No one has mentioned one of the HUGE advantages of PC gaming, an area where PCs really shine:

* Online Multiplayer
* Custom, User-Made Content.
* Online multiplayer communities

This is the primary reason why I don't have any interest in console gaming and I suspect that most console gamers have no idea of what they are missing. If you really enjoy a certain PC game, it becomes not merely a game, but a social activity. You can make friends in IRC or XFire and/or over Teamspeak or Ventrilo voice comm and/or in discussion forums. PCs are also the master of custom content -- custom, user-made maps and mods.

For example, over 10,000 custom maps and game mods have been made for the Unreal Tournament game, and some of them are very worthy games in and of themselves (such as Invasion Monster Hunt RPG). There's also the chance that you, as an enthusiastic player, could learn to make your own maps and distribute them to other players over the Internet.

In comparison to online multiplayer PC games, console games are simply devoid of depth and content. Or, as I am fond of saying, "PC gaming is about freedom."

I can't imagine how much it would suck to be limited to the exact game that came out of the box with only 8 maps for my favorite game type. I can't imagine how much it would suck if I couldn't chat with friends on the IRC and set up 5-on-5 matches, or get on a stand alone voice comm program, or check the discussion forums, or cut and paste the URL to a funny YouTube video to my friends in IRC.

 

[videopho]

PC gamers...You guys are in the denial.
John Cormack has hit it right in the head.
I'm myself a PC gamer since the Dos/3.1 OS days and see it coming
We as PC gamers are lucky to salvage what available today and may not even be here tomorrow.
Gaming companies are no different than McDonald's.
They need to show bottom line to their shareholders.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: God Mode

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: God Mode

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: God Mode
PC games will never equal console gaming due to ease of use. Products designed for lazy/casual/clueless people reign supreme over anything that requires even a small bit of manual work to use.

I've been a pc user for a while now and even I get annoyed at how many exploits, patches and problems I run into with every new software I want to use. People without a huge bank account to buy a new pc every few months tend to be a small circle of enthusiasts willing to do what they do. Mom, pop and junior arent going to learn how to build and fix pc problems for the sake of games.

I always read about people ahving problems with their games, but I have never ever had any problems with any PC games at all. Just install and play for me.. I have played alot of PC games through the years too.

Why are you only considering yourself? What I wrote applies to almost no one on these forums. Put yourself in the shoes of someone that only knows the basic tasks in windows. Those people probably makes up the bigger chunk of computer users out there.

I know firsthand from experience that if my parents or younger family members were given a choice between fiddling with a windows based pc or a mac, they would always go for the mac unless they wanted a pc for some specific tasks. Ipod and Iphone mania only adds to this fire.

If we were talking about the DOS days, I would say that you have a point. If people can't install a simple program from a CD or DVD that AUTORUNS, then they ahve no business owning a computer. How can they get by if they can't install a simple program? They probably wouldn't be able to play a FPS if they can't install a program anyway... and especially not a MMORPG or RTS, or RPG. This is why Nintendo created the Wii- for those without any technical proficiency in the least.

That is the whole point of my post. A lot of people out there arent willing to put up with installing programs or playing around with the computer to get things to work. If you think simply installing a game works everytime you are ignoring patches, bugs, driver updates, minimum hardware requirements etc. Do you really think the majority of clueless pc users out there buys dell with a suitable videocard?

Why would an employed person with a lot of other responsibilities want to deal with that for the sake of gaming when a ps3 or xbox does it automatically? Seriously, you're giving the typical mc'consumer more credit than what they know or are willing to put up with.

Windows, flaws of programs and hardware drivers needs to be fixed and streamlined long before pc gaming gains any more ground. I pretty much blame software designers for rushed releases and crapola that feels like a beta. I play devils advocate and call windows a piece of shit because there is no option to dumb it down so its similar to a dumbed down OS of a mobile phone. I know people that used their pc's for several years and they still dont know how to format a hard drive, install a printer or change display settings. Their computers are basically in the same default state as sold from the store only with more adware and spyware on it.

Again, I would say you have a point if what you described wasn't the typical user experience with computers anyway. Every PC application, including the OS itself needs to be updated with patches/fixes, when new hardware is installed, drivers need to be installed, viruses need to be prevented or removed, etc etc. Also, it would be foolish to say that console games are not buggy. Most console games I have played are pretty buggy, and the bad part is that there are no fixes for them, as far as i know. And let's face it. Grandma and mom aren't going to be playing Wow and COD4. They are going to play Bejeweled and Solitare.

All this to say: if people are not willing to put up with patches and fixes, then they are not willing to put up with the entire computing experience in the fist place, which is what i was saying in the last post: not enough patience or intelligence to get around a computer, then a computer is not for you in any form.

 

[Modelworks]

I'm really expecting the gaming market to crash . It is doing just like it did back in the early eighties. If you were not around for that , what happened is video game consoles finally started coming out for the home. At first it was slow, then when it started to sell well, everyone jumped on it. They were making so many games that it was impossible for the consumers to buy them all. Games dropped in price to literally buy one get one free.

The only thing keeping it from doing that now is the controls that MS,Nintendo, Sony have over how many games go up for sale. I think eventually though it will get to the point that everyone is making a console game and there just isn't enough consumers to buy them all.

If you look at the consoles schedule of releases there are multiple titles releasing every day. That can't continue and stay profitable.

 

[Anubis]

i still ROFL at people who bring up the KB/mouse vs a controller issue

you guys are sad and pathetic, learn how to use the tool for god sake, you are IMO a sub par gamer if you cant figure out the dpad and own with it, simple as that

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Anubis
i still ROFL at people who bring up the KB/mouse vs a controller issue

you guys are sad and pathetic, learn how to use the tool for god sake, you are IMO a sub par gamer if you cant figure out the dpad and own with it, simple as that

When the new Shadowrun came out, the developers openly admitted that having the PC and console gamers compete against each other would be a slaughter. It's not about learning to use a dpad, it's about using the dpad and realizing it sucks by comparison. Anyone who freely switches from kbam to dpad simply because they can lounge further back on their couch is obese or has serious back issues. How about that stance.

 

[VashHT]

Originally posted by: Anubis
i still ROFL at people who bring up the KB/mouse vs a controller issue

you guys are sad and pathetic, learn how to use the tool for god sake, you are IMO a sub par gamer if you cant figure out the dpad and own with it, simple as that

Right, even though I do well with FPS's on my 360, I still wish they'd just support the damn mouse, no matter how used to the controller I get I will ALWAYS like using the mouse to aim more than an analog stick. People don't just complain cause they suck at using a controller, its like people actually like using a mouse or something.

 

[Zap Brannigan]

I liked it better when computer games were computer games, instead of this amalgam console/pc deal that came in with the first X-Box.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: brandonb
...

With Consoles, people buy a game, play it casually for a few days or a month from time to time. The games are geared for a low amount of gameplay. COD4 for example, how long does it take to beat the single player missions? 10 hours? 15 hours? Thats what its designed to do, and it does it well. Perfect setting for a console gamer.

PC gamers are gamers, we play games because we enjoy them, not something to do between BBQing dinner and turning on the football game at 7pm. What games rank up there as successful games? Civilization type games which people might play for hundres of hours. MMORPGS which people play for hundreds of hours (or days).... Among others.

We aren't the type to turn on a game for an hour and turn it off for a month, fire it up for an hour, and turn it off for a month.

...

And this is why I've migrated over to consoles. Where I used to spend hours upon hours playing games on the computer, I now only have or only want to devote a couple hours a week in playing.

 

[Piuc2020]

Originally posted by: Anubis
i still ROFL at people who bring up the KB/mouse vs a controller issue

you guys are sad and pathetic, learn how to use the tool for god sake, you are IMO a sub par gamer if you cant figure out the dpad and own with it, simple as that

I'm not saying it's impossible to play with a gamepad, I used to play TimeSplitters 2 with a dualshock and it was awesome, I'm just saying it has absolutely no comparison in terms of control to a kb/mouse. I only played TS2 because it was an exclusive but I never buy a shooter for my console if I can get it for my PC.

What's next, you are going to tell me playing a RTS game is the same with a gamepad than with a mouse/keyboard?

 

[Pocatello]

Originally posted by: videopho
PC gamers...You guys are in the denial.
John Cormack has hit it right in the head.
I'm myself a PC gamer since the Dos/3.1 OS days and see it coming
We as PC gamers are lucky to salvage what available today and may not even be here tomorrow.
Gaming companies are no different than McDonald's.
They need to show bottom line to their shareholders.

I agree. In the end, money talks. The type of games that are best for the PC such as complex flight simulators like Falcon 4.0 and MS Flight Simulator appeal only to a small audience. Any game that is specifically designed for the PC is quite rare these days. Fortunately, or unfortunately, many games are designed to be multi-platformed, for all the popular consoles, and the PC.

 

[funks]

The state of PC gaming can be boiled down to the fact that Intel bundled Graphics plainly sucks.

If the base PC being bought by the consumer (don't come with discrete graphics) has at least the graphical power of the XBOX 360 - then the market will be much larger. There's alot more PC's out there than gaming consoles.

Here are some of my ideas that can make this work.

1) GFW branding is definitely a start (we get alot of easy 360 ports that way), what would also be nice is the simultaneous release of XBOX 360 and Games for Windows games (which isn't the case right now).

2) Microsoft needs to leverage their muscle a bit and demand a new base hardware profile for consumer desktop systems. Basically, hardware that is capable of running GFW games at least as good as they run on the XBOX 360. I'm hoping that they mandate such a profile w/ Windows 7 (consumer desktops only). Or introduce it soon w/ Vista.

3) Next would be a steam like system to discourage piracy - I'm not sure why games for windows live can't take care of this. At least this way, there's one copy protection scheme keeping costs down. Microsoft has the infrastructure needed to continually push updates to the security system.

4) *CRAP* video cards from intel need not apply..

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
I was in denial for several years, but the fact remains that today's best games aren't on PC; they're on consoles. Many companies aren't even bothering with PC *ports* anymore, let alone games specifically designed for the PC. Wanna play Madden 09 this year? Not on PC you won't.

I guess... if you think Madden 29384013484729834730 XL NQZY Special Edition Z constitutes "today's best games".

RIAA inspired piracy hysteria and DRM Nazism is what is killing PC gaming. It's the reason I got Bioshock for the 360 rather than the PC, a first in years for me.

That and unfettered competition on the API front. Who want's to code for 15 different shader models, AMD vs Intel, ATI vs nVidia, DX10, DX11, XP, Vista, etc? All things that DirectX was originally designed to solve. And when it finally is standardized, it changes again.

That coupled with the fact that consoles finally have power equal to a PC for the first time ever, makes PCs less appealing to developers and gamers alike.

As for controls, I don't know why we don't just have a thumb sized trackball in place of the analog stick. The whole point of the mouse is you turn as fast as you can physically turn the control, vs. holding the stick and waiting for some predetermined turn speed constant. Replace the aim/look stick with a track ball that you can flick a 180 with just as fast as a mouse and it would seal the deal for me. And get rid of the auto centering, PC gamers want point and click precision, they don't want to have to fight the game to aim at something.

I should be able to aim and take my hands off the controls and stay there. Sniper rifle + track ball = win, not moving up and down, back and forth, fighting the games tendency and the sticks desire to center. I've always preferred touch pads and track balls to pressure sensitive sticks on laptops as well, pressure just doesn't correlate to screen postion to me and is more of a linear access control rather than a "move directly to this point" type of precision.

Not to mention it would open up other genres to consoles that are traditionally reserved for the PC very specifically due to lack of a mouse on the sofa, eg: RTS

 

[skyofavalon]

If you use the keyboard to play Guitar Hero does that make it a Keytar ?

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: videopho
PC gamers...You guys are in the denial.
John Cormack has hit it right in the head.
I'm myself a PC gamer since the Dos/3.1 OS days and see it coming
We as PC gamers are lucky to salvage what available today and may not even be here tomorrow.
Gaming companies are no different than McDonald's.
They need to show bottom line to their shareholders.

And the "bottom line" doesn't include millions of installed PC's just waiting for new, quality content? Greed doesn't work that way, and I don't use the word negatively. Let Carmack jump ship, who cares? There will always be someone with talent, empty pockets and an urge to better what's come before. If you don't see this simple equation you're the one in denial.

 

[MagicConch]

The only reason closed gaming platforms are supported at all now is b/c of the subsidized costs of the hardware force it. If the hardware could be sold at a profit reliably, EA & friends would work together with Samsung, Panasonic, etc to create an open DRM-supported direct distribution model and take out both retailers and Msft/Sony of the equation. That is the end scenario imo, and if it's an open platform, the PC part is just a question of semantics, esp in a networked home.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: funks
The state of PC gaming can be boiled down to the fact that Intel bundled Graphics plainly sucks.

If the base PC being bought by the consumer (don't come with discrete graphics) has at least the graphical power of the XBOX 360 - then the market will be much larger. There's alot more PC's out there than gaming consoles.

There is more pc, but none that are as cheap as consoles and can deliver the same content for the price point.
But that doesn't matter. You could make a pc that was the same price and developers would still prefer the consoles.
I know many developers who are sick to death with supporting the pc. It is a major pain in the ass. So many hardware differences, driver problems, software conflicts.

People just want to play the game. They don't want to hear about drivers, hardware or anything else.
I was reading tech support questions for warhammer online. Common ones are , whats a router, an 8800gts, what is that ? , I have a 2.2ghz is that fast enough, it says 2.5ghz, but I have a dual core so thats 4.4Ghz right ?

I know if I pay $50 for a game and can play it on a $300 console, versus buying a new video card, adding memory, only to learn that I need to hunt down a driver, configure windows, etc to make it work, which are you going to do ?

Piracy is just a quick excuse. The real reasons are its just easier to play console games and profit from them.

Want to bring back pc gaming ? You make it true insert and play. No drivers , OS, or anything else to mess with.
Supply the game on a dvd like media that is not in dvd format. Make the disc a different size and change the pattern.
Sell the drive that plays the games at a loss or bundle it with a major game that uses it.
Nothing is installed to the pc so nothing can be copied. The media would be unreadable in anything but that drive.
Drive could be usb so there is nothing to install in the pc. Plug the drive in, load the game, play .

 

[Piuc2020]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Want to bring back pc gaming ? You make it true insert and play. No drivers , OS, or anything else to mess with.
Supply the game on a dvd like media that is not in dvd format. Make the disc a different size and change the pattern.
Sell the drive that plays the games at a loss or bundle it with a major game that uses it.
Nothing is installed to the pc so nothing can be copied. The media would be unreadable in anything but that drive.
Drive could be usb so there is nothing to install in the pc. Plug the drive in, load the game, play .

That's called a console you genius. It also wouldn't stop piracy.

PC Gaming is fine as it is, it's not dying at all, console gaming is just becoming insanely popular and embracing every genre so they are trying to become the do-all gaming platform. However developers won't stop releasing games for the PC, heck just look at all the amazing releases coming out this year. We are even getting excellent ports of games like Devil May Cry 4 which have traditionally been on the console side of things.

 

[LumbergTech]

what i find funny is that the arguments about why "pc gaming is dying" dont take into account the fact that PC had these same barriers when it first became popular, i dont really see how they have changed much...pc development has gone up..and for the most part..console development costs have gone up

obviously this will have somewhat of a shakedown effect taking certain unable or unwilling competitors (such as id) out of the game, but it seems ridiculous to say that this will kill PC gaming...its always been a more expensive route than a console in its 2nd+ year but its still managed to survive..its also been the route of those who want to go all out..

PC has had the best version of GTA every single time (arguably) and this was the game that basically brought console gaming to mega mainstream

PC has the best FPS for sure

The best RTS

Best MMO

best sims (of many kinds)

it also has competent racing games and tends to get a pretty steady trickle of ports (such as DMC4 as someone mentioned)


Street Fighter 4 is even coming to PC

not to mention that a lot of companies are saying screw the graphics race and trying out more interesting and innovative ideas...reaching out to people with less than stellar PCs

i think the future of PC is quite bright

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Piuc2020

Originally posted by: Modelworks
Want to bring back pc gaming ? You make it true insert and play. No drivers , OS, or anything else to mess with.
Supply the game on a dvd like media that is not in dvd format. Make the disc a different size and change the pattern.
Sell the drive that plays the games at a loss or bundle it with a major game that uses it.
Nothing is installed to the pc so nothing can be copied. The media would be unreadable in anything but that drive.
Drive could be usb so there is nothing to install in the pc. Plug the drive in, load the game, play .

That's called a console you genius. It also wouldn't stop piracy.

Making something easy to use does not make it a console.
What the PC lacks is a OS dedicated to gaming. Something like windows with full dx10 support stripped down to the minimum would work.
You would only have to list what hardware is supported and put those drivers on the disc. The game would work because it would have been tested with those drivers. Everything loads off the disc so nothing to be installed. It leverages the power of the pc without all the problems.

As for piracy , it would make it very difficult to copy the games.
Read up on TPM and reverse engineering and tell us all how you would get around it since you are so smart.

PC Gaming is fine as it is, it's not dying at all, console gaming is just becoming insanely popular and embracing every genre so they are trying to become the do-all gaming platform. However developers won't stop releasing games for the PC, heck just look at all the amazing releases coming out this year. We are even getting excellent ports of games like Devil May Cry 4 which have traditionally been on the console side of things.

They will not stop, but it will continue to become more specialized.
Developers need money like anyone else and that comes from publishers. Very few publishers now are looking at PC as a first choice.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

not to mention that a lot of companies are saying screw the graphics race and trying out more interesting and innovative ideas...reaching out to people with less than stellar PCs

i think the future of PC is quite bright

I think this could go both ways.
Right now there are thousands of people making games for the PC in homes, as hobbies. I've been working with the OGRE engine with friends myself. The problem is most of them go unnoticed because they don't have the revenue to promote what they are doing. People go to sites like gamespot and see only the big name titles.

If pc games do start releasing further apart it may make people start to notice some of the indie developers who really are the most like what pc gaming used to be. They are people without much money , working long hours, not for profit, but because they have a game idea they really want to see being played.

 

[Vehemence]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: 40sTheme
Yes, of course, the nail in the coffin for PC gaming...
What with only:
STALKER Clear Sky
Fallout 3
Starcraft 2
Diablo 3
Left 4 Dead
Dawn of War 2
WAR Online

All you've done is cite SEQUELS to games that were great prior to the fall of the PC as a gaming platform. I'm sure they'll be fantastic games, but you need SALES, too, and the sales of those games won't even be in the same league as GOW2.

Ahahahaha. Oh, thanks for that.

I can see where Carmack is coming from. Consoles are huge now. Anyone even thinking that FO3, SC2, and D3 aren't going to sell millions and millions of copies is either unsure what they're talking about or just lying though.

 

[Piuc2020]

Originally posted by: dNor

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: 40sTheme
Yes, of course, the nail in the coffin for PC gaming...
What with only:
STALKER Clear Sky
Fallout 3
Starcraft 2
Diablo 3
Left 4 Dead
Dawn of War 2
WAR Online

All you've done is cite SEQUELS to games that were great prior to the fall of the PC as a gaming platform. I'm sure they'll be fantastic games, but you need SALES, too, and the sales of those games won't even be in the same league as GOW2.

Ahahahaha. Oh, thanks for that.

I can see where Carmack is coming from. Consoles are huge now. Anyone even thinking that FO3, SC2, and D3 aren't going to sell millions and millions of copies is either unsure what they're talking about or just lying though.

I'm not sure about Fallout 3 but I assure you, and I'll mail you $50 bucks when the time comes if I'm wrong that Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3 will sell a LOT more than Gears of War 2, those games are huge, heck, Korea alone will be enough for Starcraft 2 to beat GOW2

What you guys don't understand is that even if the PC sells less than consoles it still provides revenue for the publisher considering making ports is a lot easier than before and costs aren't as high for the PC, developers won't stop making PC games because they are still a source of revenue.

Like I said, a month or so after Crysis was released it had already made 3 times the money it cost CryTek to make, Crysis is an exclusive game with insane hardware requirements and it's getting a PC-exclusive sequel! PC Gaming still has a profitable userbase.

You guys are just saying it's dying because consoles sales are better, yes they do sell better and as such they are a priority for publishers but their priority is money and making the game appear on as many platforms as possible makes them MORE money.

Exclusive games are a thing of the past and that includes the PC, very few games will remain exclusive on the PC but likewise, very few games (aside from Sony's 1st party games, Microsoft's are ported to the PC too) will remain exclusive on consoles. Right now, it's stupid to remain exclusive to a platform, it's so easy to be multiplatform (at least 360-PC multiplatform) that it is a BAD financial move to do so.

PC Gaming also has a lot of exclusives to look forward to, I'm sure Spore will sell like CRAZY and The Sims 3 even more, like I said above, Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 will probably sell more than any console game out right now.

PC gaming is better than ever, if you own a gaming PC there are very little incentives to buy a console that's not the Wii because a lot of the top console games are ported anyways and with GFW the ports are top-notch.

To sum up: PC gaming is NOT dying, it's only becoming better

 

[funks]

Originally posted by: Piuc2020
PC gaming is better than ever, if you own a gaming PC there are very little incentives to buy a console that's not the Wii because a lot of the top console games are ported anyways and with GFW the ports are top-notch.

I really hope so, athought I'm not sure why the titles come out alot later than their XBOX360 counterparts. (Microsoft?)

Is Microsoft getting some $$$ for every GFW sold just like on the XBOX 360?

I really do hope that we get more GFW titles in the future, I know Capcom just bitched about the fact that their DMC4 GFW didn't sell well at all. Moreover, Epic was also saying something similar with Gears of War GFW.

 

[Piuc2020]

Originally posted by: funks

Originally posted by: Piuc2020
PC gaming is better than ever, if you own a gaming PC there are very little incentives to buy a console that's not the Wii because a lot of the top console games are ported anyways and with GFW the ports are top-notch.

I really hope so, athought I'm not sure why the titles come out alot later than their XBOX360 counterparts. (Microsoft?)

Is Microsoft getting some $$$ for every GFW sold just like on the XBOX 360?

I really do hope that we get more GFW titles in the future, I know Capcom just bitched about the fact that their DMC4 GFW didn't sell well at all. Moreover, Epic was also saying something similar with Gears of War GFW.

It's only a few games and it's probably attributed to the porting process, the rest of the games all come out simultaneously.

Capcom and Epic are just greedy bastards, even though their games make enough money to cover the development cost and have a great margin of profit (easily from 2 to 10 times the cost of development), they still bitch about sales and piracy.

I'm sure that if Capcom had not released DMC4 for the PC they would have a smaller profit margin, so what the hell are they bitching about? The game was already bought by anyone with an interest in it but they know piracy is the perfect scapegoat to have a reason to bitch about wanting even more money so they take it.

Even the guys at Infinity Ward bitched about piracy and sales, they have sold 10 million copies of Call of Duty 4, 10 friggin millions, that's 500-600 millions in revenue (the game probably didn't not cost more than 10-50 millions) and they still have the nerve to bitch about piracy and "affected" game sales.