John Carmack: the PC platform is not as important as the consoles

[40sTheme]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: 40sTheme
Yeah, I'm in denial...
That's why I'm using my PC 3 times as much as my PS3, right?
Yeah, I TOTALLY need a robot to tell me that PC game sales are just fine, and are only skewed because they don't factor in digital distribution. You are entitled to an opinion, it's just that yours is quite possibly fueled by false information. If you have something to show that says that digital distribution of PC games is ALSO as 'bad' (supposedly) as retail, then your opinion is completely valid.

I had a huge big reply all ready to go, but two things came to mind that summed it all up perfectly:

1. I've worked in the business off and on for about 5 years now, and I know why developers make the choices they make: Console gaming = Growing = WIN, PC gaming = Shrinking = LOSE

2. If PC gaming is "alive and well", have you ever asked yourself why you need to spend so much time trying to prove it to yourself and others?

I don't need to prove it to myself, just to you.
EDIT: Also, if you make a GOOD PC game, and not some shitty console port, PC Gaming = Growing = WIN.

 

[IEC]

There are plenty of profitable computer games... most of them are MMOs or multiplayer in some fashion.

Or are radically different from the average PC game these days (e.g. Sins of a Solar Empire).

I'm not your typical "gamer", but here's my breakdown on spending in the last three years:

PC games: $300 (Tend to buy 1-2 years after release for cheap or buy used)
Console: $0

Part of the reason? I'm in college. Buying a console means I'd need a TV, and I can't stand looking at CRTs (hurt my eyes). A decent LCD TV is at least $300. Whereas if I want to play the latest PC games a $100 graphics card will be more than enough, as I already have a E2140 based desktop for general usage.

Last graphics card I bought was a Radeon X850 XT for $90 two years ago. Mid-range PCs are cheaper than ever to build these days.

 

[Piuc2020]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: drebo
Considering I can play most previous generation console games ON MY PC (and there aren't any current generation console games worth playing), I'd say that PC gaming is quite alive and well.

Consoles lend themselves better to simple games. After Starcraft flopped on a console, you'll never see another RTS on a console. MMORPGs are the same. FFXI was clearly built to be run on the PS2 (and was terrible to play using a keyboard and mouse), but it was a fairly limited game as far as gameplay goes. Modern MMOGs are simply too complex to run on a console.

However, games that you can pick up for 10 minutes at a time (racing games, sports games, FPS games), play, and turn off, lend themselves well to the console arena. Fortunately for everyone, these are but a small subset of games.

Carmack is a moron. He made one good game, got popular because of his graphics engine, and that's it. He's far from the end-all-be-all of gaming that people think he is.

Ummm..

C&C3 sold quite well on the Xbox.

AoC is being released for the Xbox 360 as well. Several MMO companies are targeting consoles for their next gen MMOs. Turbine is working on a PC/Xbox 360/PS3 MMO.

That just proves how easy to satisfy people are, seriously, gamers deserve better and playing an RTS with a gamepad is an abomination, I'd rather play it on my PC with no keyboard and a one-button mouse.

Many console users have never experienced the bliss of playing a shooter or an strategy game with a mouse and keyboard on a nice LCD, because of that, they think C&C3 360 is a "good" game.

I'm just worried about what Halo Wars might do to the RTS genre, seriously, Microsoft needs to be reminded their console is a CONSOLE, so stop trying to make it a wannabe-PC.

The point is, PCs are good for some games and consoles are good for others, stop mixing them (pointing at you Microsoft) and let each other co-exist. I cringe everytime I see a high-profile franchise make the move to consoles as a dumbed down action game and THEN ported to the PC. What happened to games like Devil May Cry? Sure there is one sequel but not nearly as much effort and money was put into it, DMC3 scored a fantastic 9.6 and DMC4 only a 8.7, why? Because it's not a first-person shooter.

The gaming industry has become too profitable, it's all about the money, very few developers make games for the love of making games and those that do are shunned by greedy publishers like EA. I guess Blizzard is one of the few completely unaffected developers by the greedy game-destroying hands of publishers.

I'm still very excited about the PC releases this year, I'm disappointed because consoles don't have the same magic charm they used to have, they all seem to be focusing on embracing every genre they can (even if it plays horribly on a gamepad) and focusing on graphics and highly simplified and, in some cases, dumbed down games.

Last gen, my PS2 got a LOT more playtime than my PC because it had different games, this gen I don't even want a console (except for the Wii) because all they seem to be are inferior wannabe-PCs and the few good "console" games that do come out (Devil May Cry 4, Grand Theft Auto IV, etc) are ported anyways.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: jbourne77In the end, the sales numbers and DOLLARS speak for themselves, and PC gaming is a losing proposition.

Then let it be a loosing propostion then. All the fussing, insider blather and self-serving arguments in the world aren't going to magically convert me to a console gamer. If the industry can't/won't keep enough content rolling out to satisfy millions of paying customers it'll be their loss as much as mine. My prediction is that there will be plenty of PC titles available, regardless of what the samurai programmer, or anyone else for that matter, has to say about it.

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
the ground truth is just that the sales numbers on the PC are not what they used to be and are not what they are on the consoles.

It is what it is.

Care to back up your sources with any released data?


If you mean by good as "best selling" sure, the xbox 360 with its endless supply of tools, will oblige you. If you mean quality, I'm sorry, Gears of War is hardly quality.


EDIT: Seeing this guy's posts, he's either a complete tool, or he works for id.


Probably both.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: God Mode
PC games will never equal console gaming due to ease of use. Products designed for lazy/casual/clueless people reign supreme over anything that requires even a small bit of manual work to use.

I've been a pc user for a while now and even I get annoyed at how many exploits, patches and problems I run into with every new software I want to use. People without a huge bank account to buy a new pc every few months tend to be a small circle of enthusiasts willing to do what they do. Mom, pop and junior arent going to learn how to build and fix pc problems for the sake of games.

I always read about people ahving problems with their games, but I have never ever had any problems with any PC games at all. Just install and play for me.. I have played alot of PC games through the years too.

 

[TehMac]

I guess to retards, everything is difficult, so it's easy for them to use a console, but for everyone capable of executing multiple thoughts in a matter of seconds, the PC is the way to go.

 

[cheapherk]

I'll play console FPS when they control like PC FPS's and can be played with a mouse and keyboard [period].

 

[God Mode]

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: God Mode
PC games will never equal console gaming due to ease of use. Products designed for lazy/casual/clueless people reign supreme over anything that requires even a small bit of manual work to use.

I've been a pc user for a while now and even I get annoyed at how many exploits, patches and problems I run into with every new software I want to use. People without a huge bank account to buy a new pc every few months tend to be a small circle of enthusiasts willing to do what they do. Mom, pop and junior arent going to learn how to build and fix pc problems for the sake of games.

I always read about people ahving problems with their games, but I have never ever had any problems with any PC games at all. Just install and play for me.. I have played alot of PC games through the years too.

Why are you only considering yourself? What I wrote applies to almost no one on these forums. Put yourself in the shoes of someone that only knows the basic tasks in windows. Those people probably makes up the bigger chunk of computer users out there.

I know firsthand from experience that if my parents or younger family members were given a choice between fiddling with a windows based pc or a mac, they would always go for the mac unless they wanted a pc for some specific tasks. Ipod and Iphone mania only adds to this fire.

 

[Modular]

Originally posted by: FuryofFive

Originally posted by: CKent
I think what it comes down to is multiplayer games. There's no reason PC games can't do this, but they don't. Maybe it dates back to the days of serial game ports, bulky PCs and 13" CRTs. But we've had USB for years now. SFF cases have come a long way, and some hardware manufacturers are even making smaller hardware to fit a new SFF standard. HDTVs are plug & play. There's nothing stopping it, and I think as time moves on we'll see a shift in PCs from the computer room into the living room - especially after Feb. '09 when even the holdouts are buying HDTVs.

The only thing that will remain an obstacle is FUD about computers. I think most console owners haven't a clue about PCs; they think they cost more than they do, need to be upgraded more often than they do and can't compare with console graphics. I doubt most realize how similar the two are underneath the hood.

exactly!!! biggest misconception.. that pc's cost more than consoles...

a 600$ PC of course is not gonna be ur 600$ ps3. but it will most likely play all the current games, as well as order you the new computer parts to make it better than your ps3, but as well as check ur email and surf ur pron... or make u money so u can buy even more hardware.

I'm willing to bet that a $600 PC could blow away the PS3 @ this point.

As far as this whole debate is concerned; the reality is that PC gaming is, always has been, and may continue to be more of a niche than anything else. Sure there are some titles that have given it more exposure (WoW, COD4, FarCry, HL2, etc.) but most people are lazy and just want to play Madden in HD for a few hours, so they get a console.

My observation has been different though. I have seen more and more people gaining interest in the PC as a gaming platform. The idea is that the PC is already a centerpiece in most people's lives (they use it for communication, everyday tasks such as banking/shopping and so forth) so the logical next step is for them to use it as a media device. This is where the PC begins to shine, and where I think the most development will occur in the future. People want the versatility that the PC has to offer. It can do everything they want all in one box. If this is migrated correctly, then the PC will absolutely dominate the console world, as consoles cannot begin to touch PC's in terms of overall versatility.

...Just my observation though...

 

[yours truly]

pc gaming is stale imo

having COD4 on pc and xbox, i much more prefer the 360 version. i can kick back, game on a large tv in hd, with wireless rumble controllers. its a much more immersive and enjoyable experience.

who wants to slouch over a desk anymore?

having had a mouse/keyboard for my DreamCast i can say playing Quake3 was very awkward.

 

[ja1484]

These arguments are still going on?

Employed human beings buy the platforms and games they want to play on/play.

People need to listen to this, at least the first 15 minutes:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/podcasts/Getting%20Down.mp3

Edit: Podcast includes cursing.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: God Mode

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: God Mode
PC games will never equal console gaming due to ease of use. Products designed for lazy/casual/clueless people reign supreme over anything that requires even a small bit of manual work to use.

I've been a pc user for a while now and even I get annoyed at how many exploits, patches and problems I run into with every new software I want to use. People without a huge bank account to buy a new pc every few months tend to be a small circle of enthusiasts willing to do what they do. Mom, pop and junior arent going to learn how to build and fix pc problems for the sake of games.

I always read about people ahving problems with their games, but I have never ever had any problems with any PC games at all. Just install and play for me.. I have played alot of PC games through the years too.

Why are you only considering yourself? What I wrote applies to almost no one on these forums. Put yourself in the shoes of someone that only knows the basic tasks in windows. Those people probably makes up the bigger chunk of computer users out there.

I know firsthand from experience that if my parents or younger family members were given a choice between fiddling with a windows based pc or a mac, they would always go for the mac unless they wanted a pc for some specific tasks. Ipod and Iphone mania only adds to this fire.

If we were talking about the DOS days, I would say that you have a point. If people can't install a simple program from a CD or DVD that AUTORUNS, then they ahve no business owning a computer. How can they get by if they can't install a simple program? They probably wouldn't be able to play a FPS if they can't install a program anyway... and especially not a MMORPG or RTS, or RPG. This is why Nintendo created the Wii- for those without any technical proficiency in the least.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: brandonb
Again, developers don't seem to have a clue

...

COD4 for example, how long does it take to beat the single player missions? 10 hours? 15 hours? Thats what its designed to do, and it does it well. Perfect setting for a console gamer.

Actually, I think you don't have a clue (with all due respect). COD4 converted a LOT of stubborn mouse-and-keyboard fanatics like myself. I bought it for both the PC and the 360 on the day it was released. They set the bar for FPS games on the console, and it plays better on the 360 than it does on the PC. I've averaged 5 to 10 hours a week since last November. In fact, I played it for 2 hours today already, and it's not even noon.

Consoles *can* offer a great FPS experience, and games like GOW and COD4 have already proven that. If you ask me, those games were the final nail in the coffin for PC gaming.

Even games like WOW can be consolized. That's what Microsoft Points are for. Rockband is already doing it to a lesser extent. You can have your subscription model on a console. Consoles are cheap (console + average PC < $ than gaming PC), are more portable, and can be played as a family.

Seriously, the Golden Age of PC gaming is behind us and we're coming full circle back around to the days of Wolfenstein 3D where PC gaming is a niche market. No analysis needed folks... we're there.

Developers have their asses on the line for millions of dollars... trust me... they have a clue.

So, you up for a cross-platform cod4 match? Think you can aim faster on with your *snigger* "controller" than I can with my mouse/keyboard?

Unless you can do that, don't come spreading BS here about FPSs on consoles being anything other then a fight with the controls.

(BTW, COD4 doesn't set any FPS bar I know of, except, maybe, is an example of what horribly loose controls feel like. Try CS:S if you want a bar setting FPS)

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: jbourne77

Originally posted by: CU
How is aconsole more portable? I small form factor PC is just as smaller or smaller than a console.

And when families go on vacation, they still choose to take their Xbox and not their PC. Odd.

How is a console cheaper to develop for? You can create a game for the PC with all free tools. With a console you have to buy the SDK and a license for the console.

I never said anything about the development tools. But when you develop games for a PC - which I've done at the professional level - you need a robust staff of developers and testers because the hardware for which you're developing is not streamlined and, worse, it's ever changing... as well as it's operating system. Consoles: streamlined hardware, stable O/S, cheaper to develop for. Any dev house will affirm what I'm telling you here, and I've been there and done it.

Why can you not put a PC in your home entertainment center? Lots of case can fit. I can fit a ATX case in mine.

Yet, for some reason, families have still opted to put consoles there instead of computers. True, some enthusiasts will put their HTPC there, but consoles are aiming to take over that space, too, and they're better positioned to do it for the masses.

Originally posted by: lupi
COD 4 better on a consol than a PC, lol.

Oh if only they'd allow cross platform play I'd love quickly racking up my score.

I never said you couldn't score better on a PC. Fun factor isn't determined by score. COD4 is an all around better experience on consoles, partially due to Live, being able to play from the couch, etc.

The problem with the crusty old guys who are still clinging to nostalgia is they fail to see the bigger picture. I've illustrated a bit of that bigger picture above. If you refuse to acknowledge it, that's your choice. The market's going to go where it wants to go, regardless of whether or not you want to face it or not.

Steam is better than live, you can play PC from a couch, so, both of those are completely wrong. Also, I say fun factor on console FPS gets a huge minus for not being able to move my cross hair where i want it to be, where as on PC, I do it instantly and quickly with my superior input, keyboard/mouse.

 

[ja1484]

I will agree that Steam is the absolute pinnacle of how digital delivery should be done. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I'm more likely to buy a game these days if it's distributed on steam.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: ja1484
These arguments are still going on?

Employed human beings buy the platforms and games they want to play on/play.

People need to listen to this, at least the first 15 minutes:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/podcasts/Getting%20Down.mp3

Edit: Podcast includes cursing.

very funny

they make a lot of good points, but i think they don't quite understand the reasons behind a certain portion of the population

i think that a lot of people believe if they support certain games and consoles that it will make that console better by bringing more people to the console and it will cause developers to put more work into the console etc

 

[thecrecarc]

Oh please, PC is not dying. When you account for all the revenue MMORPGs are getting, plus the amount of digital sales through services like Steam, PC basically dominates any console in terms of money. PC has been "dying" according to critics for years. Yet, this fall is being released a host of new games that will generally rock and feature the PC. PC gaming is not dying by any account. It is merely changing.

 

[Schadenfroh]

A vote for a possible change that could impact how news such as this is posted in the PC Gaming subforum is in progress in The State of PC Gaming Thead (PCs versus Consoles). Be sure to cast your vote!

 

[Modelworks]

The first thing you have to consider before getting emotional about any of the developers preferring console over PC is that its not about which is more powerful , or has better games. It is all about the cash. Which one has the most users and which one can you profit the fastest.

The only hard core pc people really left in the developer community are the indie and smaller developers. All the big companies are drooling over console profits.
As one developer recently told me "We went to the financing meeting to talk about our ideas and what we thought we could do and the first words out of the publishers mouth was , Do you think you can bring this game to multiple consoles ? . Even though we started out the presentation only talking about the pc"

Sadly a lot of the passion has gone out of gaming in the developer community. Many of the people that would before work long hours with low pay in the hopes of their dream game being made have become the I want a bigger house, more money crowd.

 

[Piuc2020]

Originally posted by: hopeless74
pc gaming is stale imo

having COD4 on pc and xbox, i much more prefer the 360 version. i can kick back, game on a large tv in hd, with wireless rumble controllers. its a much more immersive and enjoyable experience.

who wants to slouch over a desk anymore?

having had a mouse/keyboard for my DreamCast i can say playing Quake3 was very awkward.

Who in their right mind wants to play shooters with a d-pad anymore?

I don't understand how console gamers can torture themselves so much

You don't need to slouch over a desk when playing PC games, usually I'll kick back, put my feet on my subwoofer and relax (my chair, like most office chairs, can be reclined), I only ever "slouch" when the action gets intense and when I played my PS2 on the couch I also slouched when I needed to focus on the game.

I don't have a problem with consoles, in fact, I love consoles I just want to see more console-y games on them.

It's all about the money, developers and publishers are willing to bring ANY game no matter how unpolished/rushed, how inappropriate it is for consoles or if it's even a good game.

All they need is the promise of selling a lot (and let's face it, if hundred thousands of console gamers bought an RTS like C&C3 then they will buy anything, they clearly have low standards for games) and raking in all the cash, that's what it is all about. Thankfully there are still developers like Konami, Capcom, Rockstar, Sony, Insomniac, Rare and others that still know what console gaming is all about (Metal Gear Solid 4, Devil May Cry 4, Uncharted, Grand Theft Auto IV, Ratchet & Clank, LittleBigPlanet, Force Unleashed, Fat Princess, Banjo Kazooie, GRID, Gran Turismo, Forza, etc).

I hope that by this time you have realized what I'm saying, PC Gaming is not going down, console gaming is, not financially of course (where PC gaming is stumbling a little bit) but in terms of quality and appeal they sure are going down (and PCs going up) and that's what matters.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: jbourne77
I was in denial for several years, but the fact remains that today's best games aren't on PC; they're on consoles. Many companies aren't even bothering with PC *ports* anymore, let alone games specifically designed for the PC. Wanna play Madden 09 this year? Not on PC you won't.

Genx87 is half right, in my opinion. Yeah, the model needs to be changed... but for companies to cater to the hundreds of millions of PC owners out there, they would need to design games that hardcore gamers like us have no desire to play.

People can speculate all they want, but Carmack makes one good point that seems lost on most people:

the ground truth is just that the sales numbers on the PC are not what they used to be and are not what they are on the consoles.

It is what it is.

Actually there are games that are better suited for the PC than consoles and vice versa. Personally love gaming on the PC and consoles are also fun but it tends to be repetitive. Fact is best games can be had in either platform. It just depends.

It's a shame that PC gamers are getting shafted because console games sell more. More profit for developers.

 

[AzN]

Originally posted by: lupi
COD 4 better on a consol than a PC, lol.

Oh if only they'd allow cross platform play I'd love quickly racking up my score.

Agreed. I've played many FPS games on a xbox controller. You just don't have the total control like a PC gamer would have.

 

[God Mode]

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: God Mode

Originally posted by: spittledip

Originally posted by: God Mode
PC games will never equal console gaming due to ease of use. Products designed for lazy/casual/clueless people reign supreme over anything that requires even a small bit of manual work to use.

I've been a pc user for a while now and even I get annoyed at how many exploits, patches and problems I run into with every new software I want to use. People without a huge bank account to buy a new pc every few months tend to be a small circle of enthusiasts willing to do what they do. Mom, pop and junior arent going to learn how to build and fix pc problems for the sake of games.

I always read about people ahving problems with their games, but I have never ever had any problems with any PC games at all. Just install and play for me.. I have played alot of PC games through the years too.

Why are you only considering yourself? What I wrote applies to almost no one on these forums. Put yourself in the shoes of someone that only knows the basic tasks in windows. Those people probably makes up the bigger chunk of computer users out there.

I know firsthand from experience that if my parents or younger family members were given a choice between fiddling with a windows based pc or a mac, they would always go for the mac unless they wanted a pc for some specific tasks. Ipod and Iphone mania only adds to this fire.

If we were talking about the DOS days, I would say that you have a point. If people can't install a simple program from a CD or DVD that AUTORUNS, then they ahve no business owning a computer. How can they get by if they can't install a simple program? They probably wouldn't be able to play a FPS if they can't install a program anyway... and especially not a MMORPG or RTS, or RPG. This is why Nintendo created the Wii- for those without any technical proficiency in the least.

That is the whole point of my post. A lot of people out there arent willing to put up with installing programs or playing around with the computer to get things to work. If you think simply installing a game works everytime you are ignoring patches, bugs, driver updates, minimum hardware requirements etc. Do you really think the majority of clueless pc users out there buys dell with a suitable videocard?

Why would an employed person with a lot of other responsibilities want to deal with that for the sake of gaming when a ps3 or xbox does it automatically? Seriously, you're giving the typical mc'consumer more credit than what they know or are willing to put up with.

Windows, flaws of programs and hardware drivers needs to be fixed and streamlined long before pc gaming gains any more ground. I pretty much blame software designers for rushed releases and crapola that feels like a beta. I play devils advocate and call windows a piece of shit because there is no option to dumb it down so its similar to a dumbed down OS of a mobile phone. I know people that used their pc's for several years and they still dont know how to format a hard drive, install a printer or change display settings. Their computers are basically in the same default state as sold from the store only with more adware and spyware on it.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: skace

Ok let's rewind a second. Quake3 was the last multiplayer driven game Id Software created and it's only 2 gens back. It was fucking huge. Last gen they decided to go single player driven, for god knows what reason, and it bit them in the ass, but that doesn't wipe out their entire history.

Has the reason why they never attempted to make a real online multiplayer Quake 3 Arena sequel ever come out? If they had done it right, that sequel (and perhaps its sequel) would be one of the leading FPS computer games right now, especially since Epic fumbled the ball (and perhaps killed its entire franchise) with UT 2003 and UT3. (For those who don't know, UT3 was released as a buggy beta and its user interface and server browser had been heavily consolized and it paled in comparison to the original Unreal Tournament (UT99) and UT 2004.)