Japan marks 'return of sovereignty' day

[Dari]

After what happened the last time they got all nationalistic, you think that it might be prudent for them to chose a different path this time?

Uno

Japan did not go "nationalistic". That's a very simplistic way of seeing things. They modernized after they saw what the Europeans were doing to their neighbors and did not want to be colonized. That would've been unacceptable. Then they joined in the colonization game and actually sought to develop the areas they controlled, unlike the West. When France, Portugal, Great Britain and others started colonizing the rest of the world did you also consider that being "nationalistic"? What's with the double standard here?

 

[CZroe]

Actually, I did address your answer. You said they can stop white-washing their history and I said they will do that when their neighbors start doing the same thing. Why do you have a double-standard for Japan?

I've studied there and plan on having a place there. Great country.

Unbelievable. Of course that's a dismissal.

I guess the Geneva Convention was meaningless then.

Others lying to their kids does not excuse lying to yours, douche.

 

[CZroe]

Japan did not go "nationalistic". That's a very simplistic way of seeing things. They modernized after they saw what the Europeans were doing to their neighbors and did not want to be colonized. That would've been unacceptable. Then they joined in the colonization game and actually sought to develop the areas they controlled, unlike the West. When France, Portugal, Great Britain and others started colonizing the rest of the world did you also consider that being "nationalistic"? What's with the double standard here?

Are you kidding? Of course nationalism played a part in western empire and colonization. It's why the public accepted it. They believed their country's morals and methods to be superior and saw their country's actions as bringing their greatness to the less-fortunate.

Is there a word for being Jingoistic for a country other than yours?

 

[Dari]

Unbelievable. Of course that's a dismissal.

I guess the Geneva Convention was meaningless then.

Others lying to their kids does not excuse lying to yours, douche.

The Geneva Convention is only as strong as the force behind it. If the United States says it means something it means something. If we ignore it, there is nothing no one else can do...

When you stop practicing the double-standard game I will take you more seriously.

Are you kidding? Of course nationalism played a part in western empire and colonization. It's why the public accepted it. They believed their country's morals and methods to be superior and saw their country's actions as bringing their greatness to the less-fortunate.

Is there a word for being Jingoistic for a country other than yours?

Nationalism played a minor part. It was mainly economics. But, even if the part it played was major, I don't see anyone bring it up like they do about Japanese nationalism as a reason for colonization.

 

[CZroe]

The Geneva Convention is only as strong as the force behind it. If the United States says it means something it means something. If we ignore it, there is nothing no one else can do...

When you stop practicing the double-standard game I will take you more seriously.



Nationalism played a minor part. It was mainly economics. But, even if the part it played was major, I don't see anyone bring it up like they do about Japanese nationalism as a reason for colonization.

LOL at the hypocrisy! You're saying that it's OK for Japan to do it as long as their former enemies do and you don't see that as a double standard? It's not OK for ANY of them to do but they get a pass from you because they are Japan.

Double. Standard.

You asked what more they could do and I told you. Your answer attempted to justify what they did and did not say why they can't stop doing it.

 

[Dari]

LOL at the hypocrisy! You're saying that it's OK for Japan to do it as long as their former enemies do and you don't see that as a double standard? It's not OK for ANY of them to do but they get a pass from you because they are Japan.

Double. Standard.

You asked what more they could do and I told you. Your answer attempted to justify what they did and did not say why they can't stop doing it.

Well, the Chinese and Koreans claim to be morally superior to Japan so they should take the high road and stop lying. Japan just wants to move on but these bitches love bringing up the days when they were slaves. I will never understand that.

 

[CZroe]

Well, the Chinese and Koreans claim to be morally superior to Japan so they should take the high road and stop lying.

No. Japan should take the high road. Dense? THAT, right there, is my answer to your question.

Japan just wants to move on but these bitches love bringing up the days when they were slaves. I will never understand that.

Re-read everything you said earlier. It doesn't sound to me like they just want to move on if they keep manipulating history in their text books. It doesn't sound like you want them to either. Move on.

 

[Dari]

No. Japan should take the high road. Dense? THAT, right there, is my answer to your question.


Re-read everything you said earlier. It doesn't sound to me like they just want to move on if they keep manipulating history in their text books. It doesn't sound like you want them to either. Move on.

They do want to move on. They did take the high road. All this nonsense about shrines and shit that happened 60 years ago is pure dumbness on the part of your Korean and Chinese brothers. 4 years ago Japan elected a very liberal party, the DPJ, to lead the country. The cocksuckers in the DPJ went out of their way to kowtow to China, saying Japan needed to pivot to towards China and, eventually, free itself of American influence. How did the Chinese thank them for this? By starting massive anti-Japanese riots and destroying Japanese assets in China. True animals. The Chinese government also took Japanese businessmen hostage. What was Japan's response? You're looking at him and we're talking about him. Now Japan, after realizing the folly of bending towards her neighbors, went the other way and elected a nationalist. Those bitches can't have it both ways. They should have taken advantage of the political capital Japan gave them. Instead, they squandered it and sought to pick fights with the Japanese and destroy their properties. Idiots.

 

[Zeze]

I'm just going to repost what I posted couple hours earlier:

You guys haven't figured out Dari is a full-on raging Japanophile? He's slightly ragey and crazy too.

The blind selective memory of Dari is plain batshit crazy. Someone like him is a perfect example of those who deny holocaust and live in a little version of their own world.

There's a reason why he's the only fool convinced me to add him on my ignore list.


You guys learned yet? No point arguing with a mad man.

 

[CZroe]

They do want to move on. They did take the high road. All this nonsense about shrines and shit that happened 60 years ago is pure dumbness on the part of your Korean and Chinese brothers. 4 years ago Japan elected a very liberal party, the DPJ, to lead the country. The cocksuckers in the DPJ went out of their way to kowtow to China, saying Japan needed to pivot to towards China and, eventually, free itself of American influence. How did the Chinese thank them for this? By starting massive anti-Japanese riots and destroying Japanese assets in China. True animals. The Chinese government also took Japanese businessmen hostage. What was Japan's response? You're looking at him and we're talking about him. Now Japan, after realizing the folly of bending towards her neighbors, went the other way and elected a nationalist. Those bitches can't have it both ways. They should have taken advantage of the political capital Japan gave them. Instead, they squandered it and sought to pick fights with the Japanese and destroy their properties. Idiots.

Wow. You think Asia and Asians are so great that I simply must have interest in some rival Asians to justify my stance against what Japan teaches their kids in the history books?
Is it just unimaginable for you to believe that some white dude online might have a particular criticism about a particular thing your particular favorite people might be doing without siding with your favorite people's rivals? Or are you implying that I am Chinese or Korean? I'm not and it wouldn't matter if I were. If the Chinese and Koreans are doing the same thing, their actions are unjustifiable as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm just going to repost what I posted couple hours earlier:

You guys haven't figured out Dari is a full-on raging Japanophile? He's slightly ragey and crazy too.

The blind selective memory of Dari is plain batshit crazy. Someone like him is a perfect example of those who deny holocaust and live in a little version of their own world.

There's a reason why he's the only fool convinced me to add him on my ignore list.


You guys learned yet? No point arguing with a mad man.

Not "arguing." Shaming.

 

[Dari]

Wow. You think Asia and Asians are so great that I simply must have interest in some rival Asians to justify my stance against what Japan teaches their kids in the history books?
Is it just unimaginable for you to believe that some white dude online might have a particular criticism about a particular thing your particular favorite people might be doing without siding with your favorite people's rivals? Or are you implying that I am Chinese or Korean? I'm not and it wouldn't matter if I were. Their actions If the Chinese and Koreans are doing the same thing, theirs are unjustifiable as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.



Not "arguing." Shaming.

What about the rest of what I wrote?

 

[CZroe]

What about the rest of what I wrote?

No excuse for brainwashing impressionable youths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omx5KrRVkMc

 

[Dari]

No excuse for brainwashing impressionable youths: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omx5KrRVkMc

No, the one about China responding to Japan electing a liberal party into power with massive anti-Japanese riots and taking Japanese businessmen hostage.

 

[woolfe9998]

Wow. You think Asia and Asians are so great that I simply must have interest in some rival Asians to justify my stance against what Japan teaches their kids in the history books?
Is it just unimaginable for you to believe that some white dude online might have a particular criticism about a particular thing your particular favorite people might be doing without siding with your favorite people's rivals? Or are you implying that I am Chinese or Korean? I'm not and it wouldn't matter if I were. If the Chinese and Koreans are doing the same thing, their actions are unjustifiable as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Shaming.

Spot on. An instructive comparison is how the Holocaust is taught in German schools versus how the Japanese approach their WWII history in their schools. Holocaust denial is a tiny fringe in Germany. Its Japanese equivalent, much more pervasive. Not every culture denies and downplays its misdeeds.

 

[Dari]

Spot on. An instructive comparison is how the Holocaust is taught in German schools versus how the Japanese approach their WWII history in their schools. Holocaust denial is a tiny fringe in Germany. Its Japanese equivalent, much more pervasive. Not every culture denies and downplays its misdeeds.

Yes they do. There are things we simply don't talk about in the West. Things that are so shameful that they aren't in any history books taught in public primary schools. You want to talk about how Germans deal with the Holocaust? Well, let's talk about what inspired the Nazis. It was the eugenics movement that started in Britain and was expanded greatly in the United States. American states passed laws and carried out practices against certain groups openly. It was only after their followers in Nazi Germany went overboard did the Americans stop. It was whitewashed too because, now, nobody likes to talk about it and the American origin of Nazism. When this hypocrisy was pointed out by the Nazis to the American military, they brushed them off. Great Britain, the intellectual home of the eugenics movement, does not want to inconvenience itself by bringing up this topic as well.

So don't tell me about "not every culture denies or downplays its misdeeds" when we clearly do. The Germans only teach about the Holocaust because they were forced to. The Americans simply did not care about the Chinese or Koreans to impose something similar on Japan. Or China was not a political ally. Double standard anyone?

 

[Dari]

Let's not try to be smug and act as if we're better than others when we're clearly not.

 

[Zeze]

This message is hidden because Dari is on your ignore list.
This message is hidden because Dari is on your ignore list.
This message is hidden because Dari is on your ignore list.

This is awesome.

 

[woolfe9998]

Yes they do. There are things we simply don't talk about in the West. Things that are so shameful that they aren't in any history books taught in public primary schools. You want to talk about how Germans deal with the Holocaust? Well, let's talk about what inspired the Nazis. It was the eugenics movement that started in Britain and was expanded greatly in the United States. American states passed laws and carried out practices against certain groups openly. It was only after their followers in Nazi Germany went overboard did the Americans stop. It was whitewashed too because, now, nobody likes to talk about it and the American origin of Nazism. When this hypocrisy was pointed out by the Nazis to the American military, they brushed them off. Great Britain, the intellectual home of the eugenics movement, does not want to inconvenience itself by bringing up this topic as well.

I don't think there is much denial of the origins of Nazi eugenics policies any more. There certainly was at the time. Today, you can find that information in many places. You and I both know about it. We must have gotten the information from somewhere.

Nonetheless, even if the US and UK are still downplaying, it's not the same thing as denying a genocide. Perhaps my phrasing, "not every culture denies or downplays its misdeeds" was a poor way to word it. I should have said, "not every culture denies something as horrific as committing genocide."

The fact is, the Nazis were responsible for the genocide they committed. Whoever provided intellectual roots for some of those ideas are not really to blame, or certainly not anywhere near the same degree of moral blameworthiness. You could just as easily blame German anti-semites in the 19th century and before who hated Jews but didn't believe they should be exterminated for creating the culture framework in which murderous Nazi anti-semitism flourished. There might be some causal merit to that, but the people who committed the acts are first and foremost responsible. And as I said, the Germans have, in general, taken responsibility for it. There is very little actual denial there. In Japan, unfortunately it's the opposite.

 

[Dari]

I don't think there is much denial of the origins of Nazi eugenics policies any more. There certainly was at the time. Today, you can find that information in many places. You and I both know about it. We must have gotten the information from somewhere.

Nonetheless, even if the US and UK are still downplaying, it's not the same thing as denying a genocide. Perhaps my phrasing, "not every culture denies or downplays its misdeeds" was a poor way to word it. I should have said, "not every culture denies something as horrific as committing genocide."

The fact is, the Nazis were responsible for the genocide they committed. Whoever provided intellectual roots for some of those ideas are not really to blame, or certainly not anywhere near the same degree of moral blameworthiness. You could just as easily blame German anti-semites in the 19th century and before who hated Jews but didn't believe they should be exterminated for creating the culture framework in which murderous Nazi anti-semitism flourished. There might be some causal merit to that, but the people who committed the acts are first and foremost responsible. And as I said, the Germans have, in general, taken responsibility for it. There is very little actual denial there. In Japan, unfortunately it's the opposite.

There was no genocide in China either. It was just raw killing. Just killing for the sake of killing. Killing for fun. For entertainment. Killing out of boredom. Killing because there was an endless supply of targets and guinea pigs. If it was systemic, far more Chinese would've died. Not sure if you've been in the military but once you get a taste for death, it is very easy to do it again, unfortunately. It becomes 2nd nature and you lose the human connection with the victims. Ironically, while the Japanese were killing Chinese, they were rescuing Jews from Nazi camps and Russia.

No denial about Nazi eugenics? Who is not denying it? Has anyone actually been asked about it? Any politicians since you guys like to use politicians as a litmus test of whether an entire nation is "in denial"? Why don't you go and ask you local politician that, on the record, of course, and see what his answer is. I'd love to see the recording. There is no doubt in my mind that they would deny it just like many like to accuse the Japanese of denying "genocide" in China or elsewhere.

Also, anyone can read up on Japan's actions in China in Japan today. The Japanese does not forbid its people from accessing such information, unlike Communist China. The irony is that, just like in America with the eugenics movement, the average Japanese will know little and be surprised at the extent to which his country played in the deaths of others. They will not be in denial. It is usually only the politicians that are in denial.

Finally, you may not place the same blame on the minds behind a human tragedy but they are just as culpable as those who followed their instructions. Don't pretend that is not the case.

 

[CitizenKain]

Dari is a warcriminal apologist who would probably be a Nazi if he wasn't attracted to Japanese people. Really shouldn't be surprised someone like him venerates cowards.

Also funny seeing some REMF talk about how easy killing is.

 

[Dari]

Dari is a warcriminal apologist who would probably be a Nazi if he wasn't attracted to Japanese people. Really shouldn't be surprised someone like him venerates cowards.

Also funny seeing some REMF talk about how easy killing is.

I'm not attracted to anyone. I just like others to see things from a different perspective. If you want to label me without considering the argument I'm laying out then that's your prerogative...

 

[werepossum]

Well I think Japan building up militarily mid/long term to counterbalance China is certainly interesting, but mostly this article contains Japanese self-masturbation.

I imagine the somewhat sudden lose of prominence of Japan to be jarring for those adults in whose working life it occurred. After growing up in a world where Japan was the regional powerhouse, the envy of the world, and whose products were held up as ideals, they've been pushed back to second best in most areas by China and Korea. And not just economically or militarily, but also pop culture.

Is the call back to nationalism a cry to hearken back to their 'glory' days? Or the flip side is it foresight? IMO Japan is absolutely one of the key firewalls to avoid Chinese hegemony in the region in the coming decades. While the US can easily counterbalance China now, Japan is prudent to believe the US may not continue to enjoy the same advantages as it does today and may need to be able to be self-sufficient militarily .

Well said.

Japan's constitution should be changed to allow a fully offensive army, it's about time the US released the chains. And there's nothing wrong with them wanting to be nationalistic, the Chinese and S. Koreans are very nationalistic and likely more than Japan. If anything, USA has everyone beat on flag waving. However, Japan regaining their old glory will likely never happen given their depressed economy, aged population and declining birth rate.

As for guilt trips, SK and China must be taking classes in Israel on that subject.

I'd love to see Japan revise its constitution to allow a normal military, but it's not the US holding them back. Japan has been getting a bargain in defense, mainly because, having insisted on a home-based defense force only, American can hardly complain about it. I think now we're seeing Japanese realization that one day soon, American may not have the wherewithal to defend Japan, especially if we're engaged elsewhere. I'm not sure we'd have the political will to do so even today.

 

[woolfe9998]

There was no genocide in China either. It was just raw killing. Just killing for the sake of killing. Killing for fun. For entertainment. Killing out of boredom. Killing because there was an endless supply of targets and guinea pigs. If it was systemic, far more Chinese would've died. Not sure if you've been in the military but once you get a taste for death, it is very easy to do it again, unfortunately. It becomes 2nd nature and you lose the human connection with the victims. Ironically, while the Japanese were killing Chinese, they were rescuing Jews from Nazi camps and Russia.

No denial about Nazi eugenics? Who is not denying it? Has anyone actually been asked about it? Any politicians since you guys like to use politicians as a litmus test of whether an entire nation is "in denial"? Why don't you go and ask you local politician that, on the record, of course, and see what his answer is. I'd love to see the recording. There is no doubt in my mind that they would deny it just like many like to accuse the Japanese of denying "genocide" in China or elsewhere.

Also, anyone can read up on Japan's actions in China in Japan today. The Japanese does not forbid its people from accessing such information, unlike Communist China. The irony is that, just like in America with the eugenics movement, the average Japanese will know little and be surprised at the extent to which his country played in the deaths of others. They will not be in denial. It is usually only the politicians that are in denial.

Finally, you may not place the same blame on the minds behind a human tragedy but they are just as culpable as those who followed their instructions. Don't pretend that is not the case.

You're being disingenuous when you talk about the "minds behind a human tragedy." Americans who believed in Eugenics for the most part advocated voluntary programs, not the forced programs of the Nazis, and not exterminating people. Any idea, good or bad, can be taken and radicalized by others. Saying that Nazi eugenics had some intellectual roots in the UK and US would be accurate. Blaming those who advocated milder forms for the behavior of the Nazis makes no sense, particularly if you're trying to ascribe the same degree of blame that the Nazis themselves had.

So far as Japan goes, you say the denial is only on the part of the politicians, but the textbooks they use in schools downplay and minimize Japanese culpability. I have a hard time believing that this doesn't mean the average Japanese citizen doesn't have a very different view of those events because of that.

 

[dawheat]

So what? It's a shrine. The Japanese, and virtually all east Asians, worship their ancestors. They were convicted by an outside court and they continue to honor those who fought and died for Japan (again, this includes Chinese and Koreans, some of whom did not have a choice). Those outside of Japan may hate it but it is what it is and that will never change. Koreans and Chinese need to stop telling the Japanese who they can and can't venerate. Their constant harping has not changed anything and it never will.

It's a shrine that includes convicted war criminals, which for example includes the officer in charge of the Nanking Massacre.

I'm amused you're leaning toward the belief that the war trials help by the allied forces after the war aren't valid.

Personally I wouldn't be on board with a religion or 'tradition' where you venerate war criminals and those personally responsible for mass civilian killings, torture/experimentation/execution of POWs, and other atrocities, but hey - that's just me.

 

[Dari]

You're being disingenuous when you talk about the "minds behind a human tragedy." Americans who believed in Eugenics for the most part advocated voluntary programs, not the forced programs of the Nazis, and not exterminating people. Any idea, good or bad, can be taken and radicalized by others. Saying that Nazi eugenics had some intellectual roots in the UK and US would be accurate. Blaming those who advocated milder forms for the behavior of the Nazis makes no sense, particularly if you're trying to ascribe the same degree of blame that the Nazis themselves had.

So far as Japan goes, you say the denial is only on the part of the politicians, but the textbooks they use in schools downplay and minimize Japanese culpability. I have a hard time believing that this doesn't mean the average Japanese citizen doesn't have a very different view of those events because of that.

And you keep ignoring what I'm saying. If you took the average Japanese and told them what Japan did in China, they would be shocked and, maybe, remorseful. If you said the same thing to a Japanese politician they would go into full denial mode. I have no doubt that something similar would happen in America if you told a citizen and a politician about forced sterilizations (or worse) of a certain class of people in America not too long ago or how such policies were voted in by politicians and the public.