Japan marks 'return of sovereignty' day

[Dari]

It's a shrine that includes convicted war criminals, which for example includes the officer in charge of the Nanking Massacre.

I'm amused you're leaning toward the belief that the war trials help by the allied forces after the war aren't valid.

Personally I wouldn't be on board with a religion or 'tradition' where you venerate war criminals and those personally responsible for mass civilian killings, torture/experimentation/execution of POWs, and other atrocities, but hey - that's just me.

So what? Seriously, at the end of the day they broke some "law" made by politicians a world away, not by the country of Japan. If the Japanese government cared, they would do something about it. These men were "war criminals" to the victors, not the Japanese. Dude, if the Japanese actually gave a fuck these politicians would not be doing this. But no one cares because it's their country and they can do as they please. Also, I don't see any US president protesting this and the Japanese did a lot of things to our soldiers.

So, at the end of the day, these "war criminals" were Japanese soldiers first and foremost. That is why they are being venerated. How would you like it if some Arab or Vietnamese or Panamanian said the president should not go to Arlington National Cemetery to commemorate our soldiers because a few bad apples were buried there?

 

[DucatiMonster696]

I don't have a hard on for anyone. I just enjoy east Asian economics and politics and I call it as I see it. Japan may be strong financially but it is weak politically. They are trying to change that and turn it into a normal country.

Japan isn't "Strong" economically especially compared to other asian nations in the region like Singapore, South Korea, China (especially Hong Kong). In fact Japan is on freaking life support economically and is desperately seeking ways to prevent its demise but its doing so by hastening its inevitable economic demise itself via the inflationary measures it has taken. Of which said measures are being pushed under the current standing president who has embraced often overly blind nationalism. It also doesn't help that they are a extremely xenophobic society with a negative birth rate, aging population and negligible legal immigration allowed. Hence Japan is a nation that is on the economic ropes and its current day politics are a reflection of this dire economic situation.

 

[Agent11]

Japan will be fine, they are economic and strategic allies of the US.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Japan will be fine, they are economic and strategic allies of the US.

There is a reason why George Soros (along with a few other major investors) has so far made over a billion dollars betting against the Yen and the current inflationary policies in Japan.


- "Soros fund bets against yen, makes $1 bln - WSJ"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/14/hedgefund-yen-sorosfund-idUSL1N0BE0YL20130214

He and others understand that such overly drastic economic measures can easily get out of control when a nation which has so far self-financed its own quadrillion yen government debt via the bond market now is turning around and undermining that market via the inflationary policy they hope will dig them out of their slump and obscenely deep government debt hole.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-...l-banks-are-creating-financial-instabilitycan easily spiral out of control.

 

[Dari]

Japan isn't "Strong" economically especially compared to other asian nations in the region like Singapore, South Korea, China (especially Hong Kong). In fact Japan is on freaking life support economically and is desperately seeking ways to prevent its demise but its doing so by hastening its inevitable economic demise itself via the inflationary measures it has taken. Of which said measures are being pushed under the current standing president who has embraced often overly blind nationalism. It also doesn't help that they are a extremely xenophobic society with a negative birth rate, aging population and negligible legal immigration allowed. Hence Japan is a nation that is on the economic ropes and its current day politics are a reflection of this dire economic situation.

Jesus, you could not be more wrong. Japan's GDP is almost as large as China's official (not real) GDP with less than 10% of the population. That makes them the 3rd largest economy in the world. Singapore is a city-state. S. Korea is struggling and its birth rate is lower than Japan's.

However, I'm ready to see your data behind the assertion that the country is on life-support or how it's weaker than other countries...

 

[Dari]

There is a reason why George Soros (along with a few other major investors) has so far made over a billion dollars betting against the Yen and the current inflationary policies in Japan.


- "Soros fund bets against yen, makes $1 bln - WSJ"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/14/hedgefund-yen-sorosfund-idUSL1N0BE0YL20130214

He and others understand that such overly drastic economic measures can easily get out of control when a nation which has so far self-financed its own quadrillion yen government debt via the bond market now is turning around and undermining that market via the inflationary policy they hope will dig them out of their slump and obscenely deep government debt hole.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-...l-banks-are-creating-financial-instabilitycan easily spiral out of control.

Listen, I think you should stick to guns and Fox News as your area of expertise here. Him betting "against" the yen doesn't make much sense when that was exactly the intent of the Japanese government and its central bank. They wanted the yen to get weaker. Anyone that had a brain knew what was going on and could've made money. My father-in-law made over $100K doing the same thing (shorting the yen and going long on the the Nikkei). Everyone in Japan liked it (except those that want to buying foreign assets)...

 

[dawheat]

So what? Seriously, at the end of the day they broke some "law" made by politicians a world away, not by the country of Japan. If the Japanese government cared, they would do something about it. These men were "war criminals" to the victors, not the Japanese. Dude, if the Japanese actually gave a fuck these politicians would not be doing this. But no one cares because it's their country and they can do as they please. Also, I don't see any US president protesting this and the Japanese did a lot of things to our soldiers.

So, at the end of the day, these "war criminals" were Japanese soldiers first and foremost. That is why they are being venerated. How would you like it if some Arab or Vietnamese or Panamanian said the president should not go to Arlington National Cemetery to commemorate our soldiers because a few bad apples were buried there?

I'm not sure why you're quoting "war criminals". Do you actually believe they weren't guilty? Do you believe by any standard of human decency that what many of them did was wrong, even evil? I'm all for moral relativism to an extent, but call me idealistic, I believe there are things that are absolutely wrong.

Are there any US convicted war criminals buried in Arlington? I imagine they'd be dishonorably discharged/court martialed and not permitted to be buried at Arlington. But good strawman there buddy.

<edit>I just realized that the argument by Dari mirrors the Japanese government and is what annoys the other asian countries so much. It's saying "we apologize, but really these guys didn't do anything really wrong, but we do apologize, even though we disagree on how 'murder', 'rape', and 'torture' should be defined, and well cultural differences and all." It's the rapist apologizing to the victim while also saying they disagree with the definition of rape and well, she was asking for it.

 

[CitizenKain]

So what? Seriously, at the end of the day they broke some "law" made by politicians a world away, not by the country of Japan. If the Japanese government cared, they would do something about it. These men were "war criminals" to the victors, not the Japanese. Dude, if the Japanese actually gave a fuck these politicians would not be doing this. But no one cares because it's their country and they can do as they please. Also, I don't see any US president protesting this and the Japanese did a lot of things to our soldiers.

Says a lot about the Japanese if they see no problem praising war criminals. You don't the US raising memorials for the My Lai massacre do you?
They were war criminals because the Japanese were such useless soldiers the only people they could defeat in combat were civilians. See, Dari doesn't see it a war crime because he doesn't regard the Chinese people, as well, people. As far as he is concerned, bayoneting and raping infants isn't a big deal, because the Japanese were just cleaning up Asia a little.

 

[Dari]

I'm not sure why you're quoting "war criminals". Do you actually believe they weren't guilty? Do you believe by any standard of human decency that what many of them did was wrong, even evil? I'm all for moral relativism to an extent, but call me idealistic, I believe there are things that are absolutely wrong.

Are there any US convicted war criminals buried in Arlington? I imagine they'd be dishonorably discharged/court martialed and not permitted to be buried at Arlington. But good strawman there buddy.

<edit>I just realized that the argument by Dari mirrors the Japanese government and is what annoys the other asian countries so much. It's saying "we apologize, but really these guys didn't do anything really wrong, but we do apologize, even though we disagree on how 'murder', 'rape', and 'torture' should be defined, and well cultural differences and all." It's the rapist apologizing to the victim while also saying they disagree with the definition of rape and well, she was asking for it.

My morals are not the same as yours so that is too easy a ground for us to disagree on. Let's not even go there. What we can discuss is who won and who lost and whose laws were broken. The Allies won the war and they got to call some of the losers "war criminals". The Japanese lost and have to accept the punishment handed out. That punishment did not include what they could or could not do with these so called "war criminals. So they did what they've always done...venerate them.

It is never right to impose your morals on another culture. Don't tell others who they can or cannot worship.

Did the Japanese military kill innocent people? Without a doubt. Were they punished for it? Yes. Did they provide compensation and was there an understanding between Japan and her neighbors after the war? Yes. So, after all this, why do these countries want to tell the Japanese what they can and cannot do in their own fucking country? Fuck them. Trying to guilt someone never works.

 

[Dari]

Says a lot about the Japanese if they see no problem praising war criminals. You don't the US raising memorials for the My Lai massacre do you?
They were war criminals because the Japanese were such useless soldiers the only people they could defeat in combat were civilians. See, Dari doesn't see it a war crime because he doesn't regard the Chinese people, as well, people. As far as he is concerned, bayoneting and raping infants isn't a big deal, because the Japanese were just cleaning up Asia a little.

Useless soldiers? haha. Look at Japan and look at the amount of territory they conquered. Tell me if "useless soldiers" can do that. This may be an emotional topic for you but there is no need to lie. The Japanese Imperial Army was superior to nearly every other on earth, even kicking out every single European army from east Asia.

If you want to call them war criminals you can, but it won't change facts on the ground. Also, what Japan did to China pales in comparison what Mao Zedong did to his own people, killing tens of millions more. But no one ever talks about that, right???

 

[woolfe9998]

And you keep ignoring what I'm saying. If you took the average Japanese and told them what Japan did in China, they would be shocked and, maybe, remorseful. If you said the same thing to a Japanese politician they would go into full denial mode. I have no doubt that something similar would happen in America if you told a citizen and a politician about forced sterilizations (or worse) of a certain class of people in America not too long ago or how such policies were voted in by politicians and the public.

Yes and you're ignoring what I'm saying. We're not teaching our children that this stuff didn't happen. Every high school history book, so far as I know, informs of our internment of the Japanese, for example. They all talk about slavery. They all talk about American imperialism. Etc.

 

[Dari]

Yes and you're ignoring what I'm saying. We're not teaching our children that this stuff didn't happen. Every high school history book, so far as I know, informs of our internment of the Japanese, for example. They all talk about slavery. They all talk about American imperialism. Etc.

But they never talk about the Eugenics movement and its influence on Nazi Germany...

 

[Dari]

The difference between a "war criminal" and a Genghis Khan is that one lost and the other won their respective wars. History is full of men behaving savagely. We applaud the mass murdering winner and name our kids after them while cursing the mass murdering loser and equating him to the devil. Same monster, different legacy/fate. In the West we saw Osama bin Laden as an evil terrorist. In the Muslim world he's a hero...

 

[woolfe9998]

But they never talk about the Eugenics movement and its influence on Nazi Germany...

Is that really the best you can do? I don't understand why you are so bent on justifying the fact that the Japanese whitewash their WWII atrocities in their schools by drawing these strained equivalencies. I don't have a problem with Japan or the Japanese in general. I think they've done well for themselves for the most part. But they're wrong about this and there's no reason to make excuses for it.

 

[irishScott]

I honestly don't get the controversy over Japan's military. They like being completely reliant on the US or something? I thought there was a significant movement against our bases there.

Japan is one of the few nations where I wouldn't mind seeing a substantial military buildup. Hell I'd be all for letting them have nukes if they want them.

 

[5150Joker]

Comments like these certainly don't help win any sympathy for the Japanese: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...030f1e-b161-11e2-9fb1-62de9581c946_story.html

They seem to be trying hard to make enemies. It'd be funny if those same Islamic countries cut them off from oil and wrecked their economy.

The difference between a "war criminal" and a Genghis Khan is that one lost and the other won their respective wars. History is full of men behaving savagely. We applaud the mass murdering winner and name our kids after them while cursing the mass murdering loser and equating him to the devil. Same monster, different legacy/fate. In the West we saw Osama bin Laden as an evil terrorist. In the Muslim world he's a hero...

A hero? Maybe to terrorists but he's hated by the average Muslim.

 

[Dari]

Is that really the best you can do? I don't understand why you are so bent on justifying the fact that the Japanese whitewash their WWII atrocities in their schools by drawing these strained equivalencies. I don't have a problem with Japan or the Japanese in general. I think they've done well for themselves for the most part. But they're wrong about this and there's no reason to make excuses for it.

I'm not trying to justify their acts. I'm just pointing out that there is another side to this story and that the losers are always in the wrong. And people like you keep proving me right. If you re-read this thread you will see everyone mention World War II as if that's when the "atrocities" began. No one ever mentions what happens before then. Were they altruistic during or before World War I? How about before that during the Sino-Japanese War or the war against Russia or other countries? All your focus is on WWII when they lost. Your own bias overlooks these other time periods. I keep pointing out to you how we, the victors, had a hand in the European fuck up and your response is "is that the best you got?. Fact is, it's not an atrocity until with the winner. And winners are never punished (see Japan before WWII).

Comments like these certainly don't help win any sympathy for the Japanese: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...030f1e-b161-11e2-9fb1-62de9581c946_story.html

They seem to be trying hard to make enemies. It'd be funny if those same Islamic countries cut them off from oil and wrecked their economy.




A hero? Maybe to terrorists but he's hated by the average Muslim.

How do you know that he's hated by the average muslim when every other data says otherwise?

 

[Sulaco]

How do you know that he's hated by the average muslim when every other data says otherwise?

What "every other data" would that be exactly? You need to check your data, this isn't 2003 anymore, chief.

Because:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/04/30/on-anniversary-of-bin-ladens-death-little-backing-of-al-qaeda/
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/...den-death-poll-finds-broad-muslim-disapproval
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/01/world/asia/rel-muslims-al-qaeda

In Pakistan, where U.S. Navy SEALs killed the al Qaeda leader during a raid on a compound a year ago, 55% of the Muslims surveyed had a negative opinion of the terrorist group, according to the poll. Only 13% had a favorable view.

His highest "approval" was Palestinian territories, at a whopping 34%.

 

[Dari]

What "every other data" would that be exactly? You need to check your data, this isn't 2003 anymore, chief.

Because:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/04/30/on-anniversary-of-bin-ladens-death-little-backing-of-al-qaeda/
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/...den-death-poll-finds-broad-muslim-disapproval

His highest "approval" was Palestinian territories, at a whopping 34%.

Polls like those can be torn apart easily.

1) Did they go into the conservative heartland of those countries?

2) Islam allows lying to non-Muslims

3) The government in those countries were pro-US so the respondents knew which way the wind blew.

Truth is, I've talked to many muslims over the years and, once they got comfortable with me, they told me what they really felt and it was the complete opposite of what those polls say...

 

[Sulaco]

Polls like those can be torn apart easily.

1) Did they go into the conservative heartland of those countries?

2) Islam allows lying to non-Muslims

3) The government in those countries were pro-US so the respondents knew which way the wind blew.

Truth is, I've talked to many muslims over the years and, once they got comfortable with me, they told me what they really felt and it was the complete opposite of what those polls say...

In other words, you have no hard, current data. Just anecdotal nonsense.

No. That's not how it works, bud. You said:

when every other data says otherwise?

Newsflash: Your personal experience does not equal EVERY OTHER DATA, and certainly in no way usurps Pew International Polls.

Try harder.

 

[Dari]

In other words, you have no hard, current data. Just anecdotal nonsense.

No. That's not how it works, bud. You said:



Newsflash: Your personal experience does not equal EVERY OTHER DATA, and certainly in no way usurps Pew International Polls.

Try harder.

I think the proof is in the pudding. The terror just keeps coming, small or large. Look at this latest one in Boston. The mother and father swore up and down that their sons would never do such acts. They said they had no idea where they got such terrorist ideas from. Then came the revelation that the mother talked to her son about jihad. So, she lied to the media and the world while concealing the truth, just as I said.

Islam is a warrior's religion. There is nothing peaceful about it and that belief is indoctrinated into every muslim from the first teaching until the very last. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool. There is no difference between politics and religion in muslim countries. And the fight against the "infidels" will continue forever.

So, you can take these silly surveys and set them aside and look at deeds, not the opinions they're spewing for Western consumption...

 

[CitizenKain]

Useless soldiers? haha. Look at Japan and look at the amount of territory they conquered. Tell me if "useless soldiers" can do that. This may be an emotional topic for you but there is no need to lie. The Japanese Imperial Army was superior to nearly every other on earth, even kicking out every single European army from east Asia.

If you want to call them war criminals you can, but it won't change facts on the ground. Also, what Japan did to China pales in comparison what Mao Zedong did to his own people, killing tens of millions more. But no one ever talks about that, right???

I know arguing with someone as ignorant as you is pointless, but look what the Russians did the Japanese when they showed up. Mainly because the IJA were incredibly useless when it didn't involve murdering civilians and children.

Why are you suddenly talking about Mao? He should be a hero to you as he helped kill millions of people, and isn't that what you consider to be a sign of heroism?

 

[Dari]

I know arguing with someone as ignorant as you is pointless, but look what the Russians did the Japanese when they showed up. Mainly because the IJA were incredibly useless when it didn't involve murdering civilians and children.

Why are you suddenly talking about Mao? He should be a hero to you as he helped kill millions of people, and isn't that what you consider to be a sign of heroism?

Yeah, the Russians beat the Japanese the 2nd time. But the Japanese beat the British, Dutch, Chinese, Korean, and...wait for it...Russians.

Zhukov was an excellent strategist but let's not forget what the Japanese did to the Russians in the Russo-Japanese war. Japan would've had all of eastern Russia was it not for American and British insecurities...

Can useless soldiers do this?

At the height of its power in 1942, the Japanese Empire ruled over a land area spanning 7,400,000 square kilometres (2,857,000 sq mi), making it one of the largest maritime empires in history.

 

[CWRMadcat]

I know arguing with someone as ignorant as you is pointless, but look what the Russians did the Japanese when they showed up. Mainly because the IJA were incredibly useless when it didn't involve murdering civilians and children.

Why are you suddenly talking about Mao? He should be a hero to you as he helped kill millions of people, and isn't that what you consider to be a sign of heroism?

I'd have to disagree about your comments regarding the IJA's effectiveness. They were a very potent force. That being said, there's plenty of proof of Japanese war crimes, so it's not really anything to have an extended debate about.

Japanese politics has recently taken a more rightward shift, so this is effectively trading international relationships to drum up domestic support by stoking nationalist sentiments. Maybe PM Abe intends on smoothing things over with the offended countries later. It's also possible he fully meant what he said too, so who knows?

 

[Dari]

I'd have to disagree about your comments regarding the IJA's effectiveness. They were a very potent force. That being said, there's plenty of proof of Japanese war crimes, so it's not really anything to have an extended debate about.

Japanese politics has recently taken a more rightward shift, so this is effectively trading international relationships to drum up domestic support by stoking nationalist sentiments. Maybe PM Abe intends on smoothing things over with the offended countries later. It's also possible he fully meant what he said too, so who knows?

He's only in power because the very same countries that are criticizing him also criticized his liberal predecessor, who Abe defeated. His liberal predecessor wanted to be more pro-China. They wanted to get rid of the Americans forces in Japan. They wanted to even send the Emperor of Japan to Nanjing to apologize for things Japan did in China. How did the Chinese respond? With massive riots and violence against Japanese people and assets in China. The Chinese government even went so far as to take Japanese businessmen hostage. So, yeah, it should be perfectly understandable why Japan has taken a more rightward shift. WHen they tried to meet the Chinese halfway they were rebuffed. China missed a golden opportunity because they are so politically tone-deaf.