It’s official, Donald Trump wants to finish off the Republican Party for good in 2024

[fskimospy]

Lies, damn lies and statistics?

I've taken "both sides" (lol) of that debate and it's completely pointless.

Nope, well established research from tons of sources over decades.

It may be pointless to debate but that’s because the pro gun people are not interested in reality.

 

[blackangst1]

"shall not be infringed" is not synonymous with "cannot be regulated".

we regulate rights ALL THE TIME. you cannot use free speech to issue a threat against someone. the popo gonna come knockin.

Understood.

 

[Captante]

It may be pointless to debate but that’s because the pro gun people are not interested in reality.

I'm intimately familiar with the numbers involved AND I agree with you.

That in no way changes my opinion that carrying a pistol or maybe having a 12-gauge under the bed CAN be rationally justified while owning a literal assault-rifle cannot for any reason aside from being active military or law enforcement.

 

[blackangst1]

US gun control is a mess, everything back to the NFA should be revamped.

Less controls on the specifics of the firearm, more on who can carry or possess them.

Although, that is a pipe dream.

I agree. I stated many times on this forum, restricting guns wont save lives. Restricting those who get them, AND education, will. Although there are many stories of mass shooters who passed their background checks.

 

[blackangst1]

I'm intimately familiar with the numbers involved AND I agree with you.

That in no way changes my opinion that carrying a pistol or maybe having a 12-gauge under the bed CAN be rationally justified while owning a literal assault-rifle cannot for any reason aside from being active military or law enforcement.

Many people have guns for more than self defense. They (guns) are are fun hobby, and fun to shoot.

 

[fskimospy]

I agree. I stated many times on this forum, restricting guns wont save lives. Restricting those who get them, AND education, will. Although there are many stories of mass shooters who passed their background checks.

This is what I mean when I say the pro gun people aren’t interested in reality. Extensive research establishes the exact opposite is true.

 

[blackangst1]

This is what I mean when I say the pro gun people aren’t interested in reality. Extensive research establishes the exact opposite is true.

 

[fskimospy]

Are you denying this is the case?

 

[Captante]

Many people have guns for more than self defense. They (guns) are are fun hobby, and fun to shoot.

I'm with @fskimospy in that it's VASTLY more important to keep firearms out of the hands of unstable people then it is to ban certain types of weapons within reason. (this WOULD exclude things like M-16's and rocket-launchers)

Folks like you that (I assume?) store weapons securely, handle and maintain them properly plus are thoroughly trained I have no problem with having guns.

 

[blackangst1]

I'm with @fskimospy in that it's VASTLY more important to keep firearms out of the hands of unstable people then it is to ban certain types of weapons within reason. (this WOULD exclude things like M-16's and rocket-launchers)

Folks like you that (I assume?) store weapons securely, handle and maintain them properly plus are thoroughly trained I have no problem with having guns.

You would be correct. With the exception of a couple of handguns which are strategically placed in my home and easy to get to. And no, I dont have children.

 

[blackangst1]

Are you denying this is the case?

Yup. Im very grounded in reality.

edit: the biggest divide between you and I are you are for more firearm regulation. I dont believe in any rifle or handgun, including magazine size, should be regulated AT ALL. This includes automatic weapons.

edit2: Heres some statistics for you: What percentage of American gun owners are injured/killed with their own guns? - Quora

 

[Captante]

It's absolute fact that if you DO NOT have any guns around your are FAR less likely to end up getting shot by one.

Just like if you don't have a dog your less likely to get bit by one and if you regularly handle sharp stuff your more likely to get cut.

Sorry but this FACT comes under the heading of "duh" its so obvious.

 

[blackangst1]

It's absolute fact that if you DO NOT have any guns around your are FAR less likely to end up getting shot by one.

Just like if you don't have a dog your less likely to get bit by one and if you regularly handle sharp stuff your more likely to get cut.

Sorry but this FACT comes under the heading of "duh" its so obvious.

We take risks every day. If I dont drive, the chances of me getting into a fatal accident are about nil. If I never fly, the chances of getting killed in a plane crash are about nil. See how ridiculous this is? Millions pof gun owners go their entire lives without getting shot by their own weapon. Its called risk mitigation.

 

[blackangst1]

@fskimospy Do you drive or ride in a car? You know you are FAR more likely to die in a vehicle accident if you do. Do you fly? If so, why? You know youre far more likely to die in a plane crash if you do.

 

[Captante]

We take risks every day. If I dont drive, the chances of me getting into a fatal accident are about nil. If I never fly, the chances of getting killed in a plane crash are about nil. See how ridiculous this is? Millions pof gun owners go their entire lives without getting shot by their own weapon. Its called risk mitigation.

Hence my "statistics" comment further above.

Based PURELY on the numbers for example your "strategically placed" yet unsecured hand-guns are 100% more likely to lead to you being shot with your own gun (or having them get stolen) then they are to you ever using it to shoot somebody else.

Does that translate to you being an irresponsible gun-owner or say that you're "in danger" because of your individual situation?

Of course not.

 

[fskimospy]

@fskimospy Do you drive or ride in a car? You know you are FAR more likely to die in a vehicle accident if you do. Do you fly? If so, why? You know youre far more likely to die in a plane crash if you do.

Not relevant. Owning a gun increases your risk of homicide and suicide generally, not just firearm homicide.

This is reality.

 

[eelw]

Great he’s following greeny and comparing cars to guns. Okay angst, I asked greeny this but sidestepped it. Does US have higher than average car fatalities than the world average?

 

[Captante]

The US underperformance in road safety is especially dramatic: 11.4 Americans per 100,000 died in crashes in 2020, a number that dwarfs countries including Spain (2.9), Israel (3.3) and New Zealand (6.3).Nov 3, 2022

(Per Bloomberg News)

 

[eelw]

Hmm okay. Guess Americans are just more likely to die from cars and guns. Okay suck it up

 

[Captante]

Apparently we do not lead in fatalities though?


Road safety in the rest of the World: number of deaths and road mortality rate (Atlas-mag.net ~ 2015)

Ranking	Country	Population 2015	GDP/capita 2015	Number of vehicles 2015	Reported number of deaths1		Adjusted number of deaths2	Mortality rate 20153	Mortality rate 2010
1	Brazil	207 847 530	15 390	42 743 000	41 059		46 935	22.58	22.5
2	Ecuador	16 144 360	11 474	2 267 000	2 983		3 164	19.59	27
3	Russia	144 096 810	24 451	51 355 000	27 025		27 025	18.75	18.6
4	Argentina	43 416 750	20 364	13 736 000	5 209		5 619	12.94	12.6
5	Chile	17 948 140	23 367	4 445 000	2 108		2 179	12.14	12.3
6	Mexico	127 017 220	16 988	37 354 000	17 139		15 062	11.85	14.7
7	United States	321 418 820	56 116	264 194 000	32 719		35 092	10.91	11.4
8	Greece	10 823 730	26 379	6 205 000	865		1013	9.35	12.2
9	Croatia	4 224 400	22 514	1 663 000	368		395	9.35	10.4
10	Turkey	78 665 830	20 008	15 360 000	4 786		6 687	8.5	12
11	Czech Republic	10 551 220	33 770	5 890 000	654		708	6.7	7.6
12	Belgium	11 285 720	45 757	6 426 000	724		732	6.48	8.1
13	New Zeland	4 595 700	37 576	3 708 000	253		272	5.9	9.1
14	Slovenia	2 063 770	31 990	1 188 000	125		120	5.81	7.2
15	Canada	35 851 770	44 197	23 215 000	2 077		2 114	5.8	6.8
16	Portugal	10 348 650	29 689	5 872 000	637		593	5.73	11.8
17	Italy	60 802 080	37 217	42 242 000	3 385		3 428	5.63	7.2
18	Australia	23 781 170	46 271	17 200 000	1 192		1 252	5.2	6.1
19	France	66 808 380	41 017	38 652 000	3 268		3 461	5.18	6.4
20	Germany	81 413 150	48 042	48 427 000	3 339		3 540	4.34	4.7
21	Spain	46 418 270	34 906	27 463 000	1 680		1 689	3.6	5.4
22	Switzerland	8 286 980	62 557	4 924 000	269		269	3.24	4.3
23	Netherlands	16 936 520	49 587	9 395 000	570		531	3.13	3.9
24	Denmark	5 676 000	48 009	2 838 000	191		178	3.1	4.7
25	United kingdom	65 138 230	41 756	38 220 000	1 770		1 806	2.77	3.7
26	Sweden	9 798 870	47 855	5 279 000	260		272	2.7	3
27	Malta	431 330	33 995	325 000	18		11	2.55	3.8

 

[rommelrommel]

Not relevant. Owning a gun increases your risk of homicide and suicide generally, not just firearm homicide.

This is reality.

That seems like a correlation and not causation.

 

[Sunburn74]

There's a Jim Jeffries bit where he poignantly points out the truth. People who claim they buy guns for home safety or home defense are lying because they take no other steps to actually secure their homes. You don't see them buying "home safety monthly" magazine, investing in doors and locks and window barriers and alarms, etc etc. No they only buy a gun and claim it's primarily for safety despite showing zero other interest in actually trying to keep their families safe in other fashions. The real reason they bought the gun is they like guns and think they are cool.

 

[Captante]

That seems like a correlation and not causation.

So.... would saying that dog ownership leading to more dog-bites (a fact btw) mean that the act of simply owning a dog wasn't in some way the cause of at least SOME of those bites?



I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that in order for one to get shot by a gun there HAS to be a gun in the vicinity?

 

[fskimospy]

That seems like a correlation and not causation.

How so?

 

[fskimospy]

So.... would saying that dog ownership leading to more dog-bites (a fact btw) mean that owning a dog wasn't in some way the cause of at least SOME of those bites?



I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that in order for one to get shot by a gun there HAS to be a gun in the vicinity?

Again, this is not about firearm homicide but all causes homicide. Yes, owning deadly weapons makes it more likely for you to die. That’s the point.

To me this finding is very relevant because people claim to want a gun for safety reasons. Learning that owning a gun makes you less safe should make people stop buying them. The main issue is people don’t think about this rationally.