It’s official, Donald Trump wants to finish off the Republican Party for good in 2024

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,348
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Lies, damn lies and statistics? ;)

I've taken "both sides" (lol) of that debate and it's completely pointless.
Nope, well established research from tons of sources over decades.

It may be pointless to debate but that’s because the pro gun people are not interested in reality.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
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It may be pointless to debate but that’s because the pro gun people are not interested in reality.

I'm intimately familiar with the numbers involved AND I agree with you.

That in no way changes my opinion that carrying a pistol or maybe having a 12-gauge under the bed CAN be rationally justified while owning a literal assault-rifle cannot for any reason aside from being active military or law enforcement.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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US gun control is a mess, everything back to the NFA should be revamped.

Less controls on the specifics of the firearm, more on who can carry or possess them.

Although, that is a pipe dream.
I agree. I stated many times on this forum, restricting guns wont save lives. Restricting those who get them, AND education, will. Although there are many stories of mass shooters who passed their background checks.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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I'm intimately familiar with the numbers involved AND I agree with you.

That in no way changes my opinion that carrying a pistol or maybe having a 12-gauge under the bed CAN be rationally justified while owning a literal assault-rifle cannot for any reason aside from being active military or law enforcement.
Many people have guns for more than self defense. They (guns) are are fun hobby, and fun to shoot.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,348
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I agree. I stated many times on this forum, restricting guns wont save lives. Restricting those who get them, AND education, will. Although there are many stories of mass shooters who passed their background checks.
This is what I mean when I say the pro gun people aren’t interested in reality. Extensive research establishes the exact opposite is true.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,291
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Many people have guns for more than self defense. They (guns) are are fun hobby, and fun to shoot.

I'm with @fskimospy in that it's VASTLY more important to keep firearms out of the hands of unstable people then it is to ban certain types of weapons within reason. (this WOULD exclude things like M-16's and rocket-launchers)

Folks like you that (I assume?) store weapons securely, handle and maintain them properly plus are thoroughly trained I have no problem with having guns.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
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I'm with @fskimospy in that it's VASTLY more important to keep firearms out of the hands of unstable people then it is to ban certain types of weapons within reason. (this WOULD exclude things like M-16's and rocket-launchers)

Folks like you that (I assume?) store weapons securely, handle and maintain them properly plus are thoroughly trained I have no problem with having guns.

You would be correct. With the exception of a couple of handguns which are strategically placed in my home and easy to get to. And no, I dont have children.
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Last edited:

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
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It's absolute fact that if you DO NOT have any guns around your are FAR less likely to end up getting shot by one.

Just like if you don't have a dog your less likely to get bit by one and if you regularly handle sharp stuff your more likely to get cut.

Sorry but this FACT comes under the heading of "duh" its so obvious.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
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It's absolute fact that if you DO NOT have any guns around your are FAR less likely to end up getting shot by one.

Just like if you don't have a dog your less likely to get bit by one and if you regularly handle sharp stuff your more likely to get cut.

Sorry but this FACT comes under the heading of "duh" its so obvious.

We take risks every day. If I dont drive, the chances of me getting into a fatal accident are about nil. If I never fly, the chances of getting killed in a plane crash are about nil. See how ridiculous this is? Millions pof gun owners go their entire lives without getting shot by their own weapon. Its called risk mitigation.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
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@fskimospy Do you drive or ride in a car? You know you are FAR more likely to die in a vehicle accident if you do. Do you fly? If so, why? You know youre far more likely to die in a plane crash if you do.
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,291
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We take risks every day. If I dont drive, the chances of me getting into a fatal accident are about nil. If I never fly, the chances of getting killed in a plane crash are about nil. See how ridiculous this is? Millions pof gun owners go their entire lives without getting shot by their own weapon. Its called risk mitigation.

Hence my "statistics" comment further above. ;)

Based PURELY on the numbers for example your "strategically placed" yet unsecured hand-guns are 100% more likely to lead to you being shot with your own gun (or having them get stolen) then they are to you ever using it to shoot somebody else.

Does that translate to you being an irresponsible gun-owner or say that you're "in danger" because of your individual situation?

Of course not. :)
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,348
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@fskimospy Do you drive or ride in a car? You know you are FAR more likely to die in a vehicle accident if you do. Do you fly? If so, why? You know youre far more likely to die in a plane crash if you do.
Not relevant. Owning a gun increases your risk of homicide and suicide generally, not just firearm homicide.

This is reality.
 
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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,173
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Great he’s following greeny and comparing cars to guns. Okay angst, I asked greeny this but sidestepped it. Does US have higher than average car fatalities than the world average?
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,291
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The US underperformance in road safety is especially dramatic: 11.4 Americans per 100,000 died in crashes in 2020, a number that dwarfs countries including Spain (2.9), Israel (3.3) and New Zealand (6.3).Nov 3, 2022

(Per Bloomberg News)
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
9,173
4,462
136
Hmm okay. Guess Americans are just more likely to die from cars and guns. Okay suck it up
 
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Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,291
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Apparently we do not lead in fatalities though?


Road safety in the rest of the World: number of deaths and road mortality rate (Atlas-mag.net ~ 2015)
RankingCountryPopulation 2015GDP/capita 2015Number of vehicles 2015Reported number of deaths1Adjusted number of deaths2Mortality rate 20153Mortality rate 2010
1Brazil207 847 53015 39042 743 00041 05946 93522.5822.5
2Ecuador16 144 36011 4742 267 0002 9833 16419.5927
3Russia144 096 81024 45151 355 00027 02527 02518.7518.6
4Argentina43 416 75020 36413 736 0005 2095 61912.9412.6
5Chile17 948 14023 3674 445 0002 1082 17912.1412.3
6Mexico127 017 22016 98837 354 00017 13915 06211.8514.7
7United States321 418 82056 116264 194 00032 71935 09210.9111.4
8Greece10 823 73026 3796 205 00086510139.3512.2
9Croatia4 224 40022 5141 663 0003683959.3510.4
10Turkey78 665 83020 00815 360 0004 7866 6878.512
11Czech Republic10 551 22033 7705 890 0006547086.77.6
12Belgium11 285 72045 7576 426 0007247326.488.1
13New Zeland4 595 70037 5763 708 0002532725.99.1
14Slovenia2 063 77031 9901 188 0001251205.817.2
15Canada35 851 77044 19723 215 0002 0772 1145.86.8
16Portugal10 348 65029 6895 872 0006375935.7311.8
17Italy60 802 08037 21742 242 0003 3853 4285.637.2
18Australia23 781 17046 27117 200 0001 1921 2525.26.1
19France66 808 38041 01738 652 0003 2683 4615.186.4
20Germany81 413 15048 04248 427 0003 3393 5404.344.7
21Spain46 418 27034 90627 463 0001 6801 6893.65.4
22Switzerland8 286 98062 5574 924 0002692693.244.3
23Netherlands16 936 52049 5879 395 0005705313.133.9
24Denmark5 676 00048 0092 838 0001911783.14.7
25United kingdom65 138 23041 75638 220 0001 7701 8062.773.7
26Sweden9 798 87047 8555 279 0002602722.73
27Malta431 33033 995325 00018112.553.8
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,027
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There's a Jim Jeffries bit where he poignantly points out the truth. People who claim they buy guns for home safety or home defense are lying because they take no other steps to actually secure their homes. You don't see them buying "home safety monthly" magazine, investing in doors and locks and window barriers and alarms, etc etc. No they only buy a gun and claim it's primarily for safety despite showing zero other interest in actually trying to keep their families safe in other fashions. The real reason they bought the gun is they like guns and think they are cool.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,291
10,793
136
That seems like a correlation and not causation.

So.... would saying that dog ownership leading to more dog-bites (a fact btw) mean that the act of simply owning a dog wasn't in some way the cause of at least SOME of those bites?

;)

I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that in order for one to get shot by a gun there HAS to be a gun in the vicinity?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,348
48,610
136
So.... would saying that dog ownership leading to more dog-bites (a fact btw) mean that owning a dog wasn't in some way the cause of at least SOME of those bites?

;)

I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that in order for one to get shot by a gun there HAS to be a gun in the vicinity?
Again, this is not about firearm homicide but all causes homicide. Yes, owning deadly weapons makes it more likely for you to die. That’s the point.

To me this finding is very relevant because people claim to want a gun for safety reasons. Learning that owning a gun makes you less safe should make people stop buying them. The main issue is people don’t think about this rationally.
 
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