Israel will not extend settlement freeze.

[Lemon law]

Don't be a total fool Common Courtesy, by saying, "
I will agree, it is not their fault. It is the fault of the parents and grandparents greed that put them in this situation. And when they stop blaming Israel for such and realize that they can not have their cake and eat it also, they will have a chance to improve themselves."

You are simply saying guilt is hereditary and perpetual, so lets nuke Australia because it was a penal colony wit all descendants therefore depraved, and kill all Jews because they were Christ killers. That is bogus reasoning and you should know better than to post that kind of bullshit.

Common Courtesy you seem to be an endless source of bogus reasoning, but the fact is and remains we can't change any of the sins of the past, we can only hope to create a better future.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I am not saying that it has to be hereditary. I am stating that the Pals screwed up previously again and again and have not learned from it.

The Pals want to live in the sins of their parents and brothers. It is their only justification for the excesses that they perform. At what point in time should they stop getting a free pass for their actions?

 

[mrCide]

At what point do pro-Israeli apologists admit that settlement building/expansion is ridiculous instead of trying to justify it?

 

[SamurAchzar]

At what point do pro-Israeli apologists admit that settlement building/expansion is ridiculous instead of trying to justify it?

It is, but works to appease domestic forces. You can't really blame the Israeli public for voting right-wing after the precedence set in Gaza, can you?

Israel would have done better by not building, no question about it. The Palestinians know it and use it to their advantage (that's why the serious talks only started towards the end of the freeze).

 

[EagleKeeper]

At what point do pro-Israeli apologists admit that settlement building/expansion is ridiculous instead of trying to justify it?

The building/expansion are based on a desire to hold onto something that was originally felt to be taken from them.

It is a bargaining chip that the Israeli government is willing to toss into the pot when needed.

A freeze takes away that chip.

As stated above, the actions of the Palestinians in Gaza after the unilateral withdrawl makes Israel very leery on the intentions of the Palestinians.

Israel has been sucker punched to many times to feel comfortable at this point of giving up their trip wires. And actions by the Palestinian leadership and other Arab nations do not contribute to this comfort level.

The Palestinian leadership (all) and their supporters/sponsors must be willing to create peace and abide by a peace agreement, not just give it wink and business as usual.

 

[woolfe9999]

At first when I heard that Netanyahu would not extend the freeze I was disappointed. I realize the settlements are a thorn in the Pals' side and I want there to be a peace deal. However, upon reflection, I don't see that any other outcome was practical or even remotely possible. The settlements are a touchy political issue within the current Israeli regime. Netanyahu only has so much political capital. The pro settlement bloc (far right) is a powerful political bloc. Yet it isn't all powerful. I believe Netanyahu would be willing to step on their toes, but only IF he had a reasonable chance of pulling off the Grand Historic Peace Accord.

But Netanyahu looks at the situation as a realist. He is not negotiating with someone who has the power to speak for all the Pals. He knows that even IF he and Abbas are able to come to terms on several thorny issues, any such peace deal is doomed to the fate of Oslo or worse. Like it or lump it, he isn't going to step on the toes of the Israeli far right just so he can have a great chance to fail at a peace deal. Extending the freeze then failing in the peace process would alienate right, left and center in Israel. It would have been political death for Netanyahu. It isn't realistic to expect any elected official to voluntary sign his own political death warrant. If people would take a break from moralizing these issues for a moment and examine this through the lens of realpolitik, they would understand what they can and cannot expect and not be disappointed when things didn't turn out the way they ideally wanted.

Honestly, the franctionalizing of political authority among the Pals between Fatah and Hamas was the single worst thing that has ever happened in terms of setting back the peace process. It may have set it back 10 or more years. Those who want peace need to understand that it isn't going to happen until Hamas is out of power because it just isn't realistic.

- wolf

 

[Lemon law]

To start out Israel is too busy sucker punching the Palestinians to even claim the have been sucker punched.

But the whole idea of settling on disputed land was clearly articulated by various Israeli political figures who clearly articulated that once Jews had settled on that land, grown to know the land, that they would refuse to give it back. And given the fact that Israel now has some 500,000 settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, it complicates any peace process immensely. And now,settlement has started again on disputed land.

The main driving force for Israeli settlement comes from a the various settler parties often populated with mainly Russian Immigrants, and if the settler parties withdraw from Netanyuhu coalition government, there goes the Netanyuhu government. Otherwise Netanyuhu is playing a stalling game, pretending he might extend the settlement freeze while knowing damn well the settler party constituency he campaigned to win will not allow a settlement freeze extension.

And Israel will keep playing the talk and talk and settle and settle on disputed land game until the rest of the world finally demands an end to it.

As we can see, Israel has already refused to extend the freeze, and in the coming weeks we will find out if the larger world community will finally start putting real pressure on Israel if the freeze is not extended.

There are literally thousand of ways the entire world can use to pressure Israel non-violently, but to some extent, Netanyuhu just bet everything that the world will do nothing.

But if the world finally starts putting pressure on Israel, the first outcome may be the fall of the Netanyuhu government followed by a Kadima led government. And Kadima is far more willing to commit to a peace process.

 

[kylebisme]

Honestly, the franctionalizing of political authority among the Pals between Fatah and Hamas was the single worst thing that has ever happened in terms of setting back the peace process.

Yeah, it's called divide and conquer:

When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and '80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.

As Ehud Olmert once noted:

Netanyahu established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom

Granted, Hamas didn't really come to power until after Israel pulled their troops out of Gaza while refusing to conduct an orderly transfer of power to the PA, as Sharon's adviser Dov Weisglass explained:

The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.

So, now that Palestinians have been divided by Netenyahu's creation, he can exploit the situation so he can contenue living up to his party's platform which vows:

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.

And:

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs.

So, that pretty well sums up the Israeli establishment's lack of commitment to the peace process in a nutshell, and of course our establishment in the US too, as they know all this but continue to pretend it isn't a sham, all while our population remains oblivious to the war profiteering which fuels these conflicts. Granted, those riding the gravy train know they can get away with it, as Netanyahu once noted:

I know what America is. America is something that can be moved easily.

 

[woolfe9999]

Ehud Olmert blames Netanyahu for the rise of Hamas in the context of Olmert and Netanyahu being political opponents, and both blaming each other for the rise of Hamas. And you take this as literal established fact?

You're an idiot.

- wolf

 

[kylebisme]

It's more complicated than that, as mentioned in the WSJ article I linked above, and in more detal here, notably:

But there is something bitterly ironic in Israel’s support for Fatah against Hamas—and it should be a lesson to governments everywhere that meddle in other states’ affairs. In the past, Israel supported Hamas against Fatah. Indeed, in the 1970s and 80s, Israel played a not insignificant role in encouraging Hamas’s emergence in the belief that such an Islamist group might help rupture support for the mass nationalist movement of Fatah. Twenty years later, Israel has switched sides, hoping that it can encourage Fatah to see off Hamas. It wants “moderate” Palestinians to take on the “extremist” Palestinians it helped create. Like America and Britain before it—both of whom have supported and armed Islamist movements in the Middle East in attempts to undermine secular nationalist parties—Israel is learning the hard way that it is one thing to let radical Islamists off the leash but quite another thing to rein them back in again. If you make monsters, you shouldn’t be surprised if they come back to bite you.

Anyway, Netanyahu played a considerable role that process of divide and conquer, particularly in releasing Sheikh Yassin during his previous stint as PM as Olmert mentioned. As for your suggestion that they both blame each other for Hamas, where have you seen Netanyahu blaming Olmert? I doubt even Netanyahu has the audacity to do that.

 

[woolfe9999]

As for your suggestion that they both blame each other for Hamas, where have you seen Netanyahu blaming Olmert? I doubt even Netanyahu has the audacity to do that.

Read the first sentence of your own damn JPost link. LOL FAIL.

- wolf

 

[Lemon law]

Who cares about the niggling details in creation of Hamas? The point is Israel sure won't deal honestly with the Palestinians, Arifat and Fatah have not advanced the Palestinian cause any, and Hamas has basically failed too.

But the Palestinians will likely flock to the banner of any group that can advance their cause. At least Hamas does not have a plague of illegal Israeli settlements to deal with, and one thing Egypt can do is cease their co-operation with the Israel blockade of Gaza and Jordon could do the same thing for the West bank.

 

[kylebisme]

Read the first sentence of your own damn JPost link.

Ah, he did have the audacity to do that, I didn't bother to read the article as I just Googled the quote. Anyway, his argument is absurd, as Hamas didn't need East Jerusalem to win anyway.

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of where is various Israeli factions are at this time, the following NYT links seems to sum it up quite well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/06/world/middleeast/06mideast.html?_r=1&ref=global-hom

Quite frankly, I fail to see what value a mere 60 day extension extension of the freeze would be, but Obama seems to be offering huge bribes to Israel just to get a mere and rather worthless 60 days. At which point new Israeli bribes will be needed.

Why not just let events take their course and if Israel does not see the light, use sticks and not carrots!

But after this Friday's Arab League meeting, its very likely Abbas will have total Arab world support and a lot of world support if he tells Netanyughu and Israel that talks are hopeless without a settlement freeze.

Since the framework of a peace deal between the Palestinians and Israel are already negotiated, there is no reason a deal can't be completed in one year which is the Obama position.

But now the ball s really on the Israeli side of the net, and Netanyuhu is fast running out of time to straddle any fences, he must either say no to his bat shit crazy settler parties that prop his governmental coalitions up, or risk Israel losing all world support.

All I can say is that time is fast running out. And if these talks collapse again, I would imagine the UN, the EU, Russia, and quite a few other world entities will all lay a collection of differeing stick based plans to use against Israel on the table. And only when sticks are used will Israel do anything. There are thousands of ways the world can ramp up pressure against Israel without using a single military based alternative.

My feeling is the sooner the Netanyuhu government falls, the better. The problem is that it would cost many months before new Israeli elections. Making a possible alternative Kadima replacing the settler parties resulting in a loss of the settler party political clout, maybe leaving Netanyuhu in place but with the clear charge to continue peace negotiations to be completed in one year.

The time for talk is rapidly ending, and now events may have to rule the day.

 

[Freshgeardude]

All I can say is that time is fast running out. And if these talks collapse again, I would imagine the UN, the EU, Russia, and quite a few other world entities will all lay a collection of differeing stick based plans to use against Israel on the table. And only when sticks are used will Israel do anything. There are thousands of ways the world can ramp up pressure against Israel without using a single military based alternative.

so by your logic, israel should be punished if abbas walks from the talks.

the settlements are not an issue. they never were in the past. abbas is simply using it as a ploy to walk away from the table.


Let me ask you, if the US brokered a deal between SK and NK, and South broke away, would the world condemn SK?

 

[Lemon law]

FGD says, "so by your logic, israel should be punished if abbas walks from the talks."

Which of course is a deflection, Israel should be punished for not extending the settlement freeze.

The FGD goes really overboard stupid with, "the settlements are not an issue. they never were in the past. abbas is simply using it as a ploy to walk away from the table."

FGD, Israeli settlements on disputed land were always an issue, and I can't believe you are so totally clueless by saying what you said. And now we have 500,000 Israeli settlers to complicate any future Palestinian State process.

 

[Jhhnn]

so by your logic, israel should be punished if abbas walks from the talks.

the settlements are not an issue. they never were in the past. abbas is simply using it as a ploy to walk away from the table.


Let me ask you, if the US brokered a deal between SK and NK, and South broke away, would the world condemn SK?

Blind denial and obfuscation. Settlement is the heart of the issue. If the Israelis insist on their "right" to do so, Abbas is wasting his breath and his time attempting to negotiate, because the Israelis won't be negotiating at all.

CC claim that the settlements are bargaining chips is also dead wrong. If that were their purpose, then the Israelis would state their terms for abandonment of the settlements as part of a larger bargain. They seek no such bargain and use talks as cover for ongoing settlement activity.

Viewed dispassionately, Israeli intentions are quite clear.

 

[EagleKeeper]

FGD says, "so by your logic, israel should be punished if abbas walks from the talks."

Which of course is a deflection, Israel should be punished for not extending the settlement freeze.

The FGD goes really overboard stupid with, "the settlements are not an issue. they never were in the past. abbas is simply using it as a ploy to walk away from the table."

FGD, Israeli settlements on disputed land were always an issue, and I can't believe you are so totally clueless by saying what you said. And now we have 500,000 Israeli settlers to complicate any future Palestinian State process.

And how long should the freeze be extended?
The Pals were not interested in talks until the last minute when the freeze would expire. Why and where were they for the first 8 months. Not interested in peace talks then!
Extending the freeze is acknowledging that the Pals feelings and demands are more important that Israel.

Israel pulled out of Gaza unilateraly without any preconditions - hoping to demonstrate a land for peace could be accomplished.

That failed.

Now the Palestinians will have to show that they are serious the next time Israel is asked to remove settlements.

 

[kylebisme]

Israel pulled out of Gaza unilateraly without any preconditions - hoping to demonstrate a land for peace could be accomplished.

No, again, as Sharon's adviser Dov Weisglass explained:

The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.

In other words, the Gaza pullout was done to insure there would be no peace, so the taking of Palestinian land in the West Bank could continue, and it worked just as planned.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Apparently, the peace process was not frozen.
What the advisor felt did not happen.

And it also showed that the Palestinians within Gaza have no interest in peace but continues to attack Israel as long as they could get away with it.

 

[Lemon law]

In all due respects Common Courtesy, this thread is degenerating into the usual Kindergarten mentality of Israeli fan clubbers saying no Israel isn't, and the unbiased saying oh yes Israel is playing that game.

Well the point is and remains, the issue will not be decided on this forum, but instead will finally make progress when and if major world powers start to really ramp up the pressure on Israel.

Will Israel finally get dope slapped in the very near future, on that settlement freeze extension issue? We may just find out in the coming weeks or months.

 

[kylebisme]

Apparently, the peace process was not frozen.

Oh really, what progress are you suggesting has been made?

And it also showed that the Palestinians within Gaza have no interest in peace but continues to attack Israel as long as they could get away with it.

Rather, the ongoing colonization of the West Bank has constantly shown Israel has no interest in any actual two state solution, which some Palestinians in Gaza responded to by continuing to fire rockets at Israel in response to Israel's abject lack of interest in anything even vaguely resembling a just peace.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It is, but works to appease domestic forces. You can't really blame the Israeli public for voting right-wing after the precedence set in Gaza, can you?

Israel would have done better by not building, no question about it. The Palestinians know it and use it to their advantage (that's why the serious talks only started towards the end of the freeze).

I noted no one responded to this, probably because it's the one post in this entire thread that makes any sense.

It's true too, the orthodox fringe has the leadership by the balls on this one and no one is willing to give an inch to gain that mile.

Now, Hamas and especially their rocket shooting terrorist brethen need to be eradicated before any meaningful discussions can ever be had, that much is also clear.

Is there any real will on either side to come to a conclusion where both sides can coexist peacefully? No, and until the terrorists put down their weapons, there can never be one on either side either.

See the Pals are sure of victory against Israel, Israelis want to expand, those two forces are the problem here and it won't be solved by less than a genocide.

Unfortunantly, especially for Samur and other residents of the area, that is what it will take.

 

[kylebisme]

Is there any real will on either side to come to a conclusion where both sides can coexist peacefully? No, and until the terrorists put down their weapons, there can never be one on either side either.

Of course Palestinians know they'd be far better off with a two-state solution on the basis of international law, as does the Arab League as a whole, and the vast majority of the nations of the world. However, Israeli establishment and their backers have no interest in anything of the sort, as they are making far too much money off settlement expansion and war profiteering in general to give that all up for anything resembling a just peace. Considering that situation, how could one expect to convince the few who do take up arms against Israel to put them down?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Of course Palestinians know they'd be far better off with a two-state solution on the basis of international law, as does the Arab League as a whole, and the vast majority of the nations of the world. However, Israeli establishment and their backers have no interest in anything of the sort, as they are making far too much money off settlement expansion and war profiteering in general to give that all up for anything resembling a just peace. Considering that situation, how could one expect to convince the few who do take up arms against Israel to put them down?

Just piss off, the grown ups are having a discussion here.