Israel will not extend settlement freeze.

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Don't be a fool and a propagandist, the present mid-east peace settlements have nothing to do with Israeli's breathing or not.

The question is will we have a Palestinian state or not which will do something to defuse Arab hatreds. And as Israel returns to its legitimate borders, its military will be better able to defend Israelis in a smaller rather than a larger area.

Its sadly an Israeli dilemma, its too small to have a buffer area now and does not have any real buffer area as it is. And has zero hope of ever acquiring a buffer area through future expansion. Israel has too few people to even defend what it has.

And Israel when given a chance to defuse the hostilities of its neighbors, instead does everything to not only keep pissing off its immediate neighbors, it stupid enough to defy the entire world while they are at it.
Israel can never defuse its foes' hatred by appeasement, any more than the Jews could appease the National Socialists' hatred by appeasement. The Jews' very existence drives the hatred now as then, the only difference being that after the Holocaust the Jews realized the futility of appeasement and depending on the benevolence of others for your survival. As far as its "legitimate borders", if a state repeatedly attacks another state and loses land, it has no moral claim on that land, and no moral authority to give that land to someone else. Israel seems to be doing just fine defending itself, and giving up the Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula in particular would merely make Israel less easily defended, not more.

If your very existence is at stake, defying the whole world seems to me to be the logical and moral thing to do. There are many Arab Muslim states; there is only one nation for the Jews, and no matter how much Western leftists want to appease the Muslims with Jewish blood that doesn't make it a smart thing for the Jews. Better by far to die fighting than to be led again to the slaughter.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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In terms of the conduct of foreign policy, FGD, the House and the Senate who have no power because all the foreign policy stuff is invested in the President.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Originally Posted by Lemon law
Don't be a fool and a propagandist, the present mid-east peace settlements have nothing to do with Israeli's breathing or not.

The question is will we have a Palestinian state or not which will do something to defuse Arab hatreds. And as Israel returns to its legitimate borders, its military will be better able to defend Israelis in a smaller rather than a larger area.

Yes I guess you are right Lemon Law - as my friend aAtreus21 stated in another thread -- Once Israel accepts the violence, peace can finally reign.
You are such a tool of Hamas!! The present peace talks have everything to do with a lasting peace in Israel and a Palestinian state for the Palestinians.

You are dellusional and quite frankly a frakin blooming idiot if you even for a second believe that a Palestinian state in the middle east will difuse Arab hatred!! Are you really that nieve??

The question is will all parties that seem to have an interest in making sure there is no Palestinian state, ever be able to leave the "Palestinian" people alone and the Israeli`s alone? Will they allow the "Palestinian" people to have a state of their own without outside interference, such a militant groups whose only goal is to cause harm to Israel? Will Iran ever stop supplying arms to Hamas? -- Not as long as the Charter than Hamas lives by calls for the destruction of Israel!! Don`t argue until you read the charter....

Here are excerpts from the charter...

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."


Now you tell me how this is ONLY about a Palestinian state and not about the survival of Israel????
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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In terms of today's Arab League meeting, the best link I can come up with is this one.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news...cribes-Peace-Talks-as-Negative-104578504.html

I note that the statements were made slightly ahead of the opening of talks, but given the statements were made by the Arab League head cheese, it probably summarizes the likely end consensus already reached. And will almost certainly not even remotely resemble what Common Courtesy wants as the Arab League is seeming taking the following position.

1. The Israeli Palestinian peace talks need a new direction but are presently fruitless without a Israeli Settlement Freeze extension.

2. The Arab League will only conditionally accept a Israeli temporary 60 day extension of the Settlement freeze. (a) Progress must be rapidly made on defining final borders
during those 60 days. (b) If at the end of 60 days, progress is insufficient to have well defined borders, then the Israeli settlement freeze must again be extended.

3. What set of action the Arab League will agree to jointly undertake if Israel does not extend the settlement freeze may also be part of this Arab League meeting.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Don't worry Common Courtesy, the larger world pays no attention to your delusions, and I doubt the larger world will allow Bozo Netanyuhu to call the tune. Its simply a matter of when, if not very soon, then not much later that the Israeli game will come to a screeching halt.

Right now the whole Israeli ball game is mostly invested in Obama backing Israel to the hilt, and insulting Obama at every step of the way is not a very wise Netanyuhu strategy.

The larger world is has declared that Hamas is a terrorist group, it's also who the Pals have chosen as their leadership and they do not recognise Israel as a valid state.

You will never get it as long as you keep denying that the very politicians chosen are terrorists and that their armed forces are the ones committing the terrorist acts against Israel.

Once you recognise that, a discussion of what can be done can be had, until then, all you are doing is supporting terrorists.

You see, it's that easy in that case, there is no doubt among any nation of any credibility, the democratically elected leadership of Palestinians say that the destruction of Israel must come before peace, these aren't my words, they are not made up words either, those are the exact words of Hamas and as long as you refuse to believe what they say and what their armed forces do then no real discussion can be had.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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In terms of today's Arab League meeting, the best link I can come up with is this one.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news...cribes-Peace-Talks-as-Negative-104578504.html

I note that the statements were made slightly ahead of the opening of talks, but given the statements were made by the Arab League head cheese, it probably summarizes the likely end consensus already reached. And will almost certainly not even remotely resemble what Common Courtesy wants as the Arab League is seeming taking the following position.

1. The Israeli Palestinian peace talks need a new direction but are presently fruitless without a Israeli Settlement Freeze extension.

2. The Arab League will only conditionally accept a Israeli temporary 60 day extension of the Settlement freeze. (a) Progress must be rapidly made on defining final borders
during those 60 days. (b) If at the end of 60 days, progress is insufficient to have well defined borders, then the Israeli settlement freeze must again be extended.

3. What set of action the Arab League will agree to jointly undertake if Israel does not extend the settlement freeze may also be part of this Arab League meeting.

Peace talks with who? The terrorists that are the elected leadership for Palestinians?

Or should we disregard their democratically elected leaders and go with those who hold no power what so ever and are not supported by the Palestinians themselves?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Earth to JOS, Earth to JOS, Hamas is not part of the peace talks and Abbas and the Fatah party in the West Bank who have renounced violence are.

But then again, Hamas does not recognize Israel and calls Israel every name in the book, and in turn Israel does not recognize Hamas. Behold the power of pretend, but damned if both Israel and Hamas are both right in calling each other illegitimate terrorists.

But only you Brits have that special perspective, because before 1781, you called us Americans a bunch of rebel terrorists.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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I don't understand how anyone thinks Israel isn't willing to have real peace talks when they're the ones holding the Pals by the balls. The Palestinians have fucking NO power here, they could easily be wiped off the face of the Earth by Israel if Israel so chose, but Israel doesn't do that. Israel tries to play nice, they're not perfect, but I see much more tolerance from them than the Pals.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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I don't understand how anyone thinks Israel isn't willing to have real peace talks when they're the ones holding the Pals by the balls. The Palestinians have fucking NO power here, they could easily be wiped off the face of the Earth by Israel if Israel so chose, but Israel doesn't do that. Israel tries to play nice, they're not perfect, but I see much more tolerance from them than the Pals.
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And that is where you are wrong bfdd, yes Israel can wipe the Pals off the face of the earth, but then then Israel becomes exactly what the Nazi party was and everyone knows that.

So instead we have a problem, we kick the can down the road, and it becomes a world problem that can turn into a bloodbath in the mid-east.

No Israel does not play nice, no Israel has no right to disputed land, no Israel is not the good guys either, and maybe its time to ask what fair to both Israel and the Palestinians.

Instead we are staying stuck on stupid by trying to label either Israel or the Palestinians as either the evil empire or a bunch of terrorists pigs. When such a black white description can't be applied to either side.

That is exactly the problem, we have no objective standard of what is FAIR. Unless we want to assume Israel robbed the Palestinian people fair and square.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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And that is where you are wrong bfdd, yes Israel can wipe the Pals off the face of the earth, but then then Israel becomes exactly what the Nazi party was and everyone knows that.

So instead we have a problem, we kick the can down the road, and it becomes a world problem that can turn into a bloodbath in the mid-east.

No Israel does not play nice, no Israel has no right to disputed land, no Israel is not the good guys either, and maybe its time to ask what fair to both Israel and the Palestinians.

Instead we are staying stuck on stupid by trying to label either Israel or the Palestinians as either the evil empire or a bunch of terrorists pigs. When such a black white description can't be applied to either side.

That is exactly the problem, we have no objective standard of what is FAIR. Unless we want to assume Israel robbed the Palestinian people fair and square.

Yea, that's what I'm saying. Israel is not being a bad guy. They might not be a good guy, but I see much more tolerance coming from that side of this situation than the other. It takes a lot more restraint to do what Israel is doing than I believe you give them credit for. They hold all the power here, the Palestinians literally can't hold a fucking match to them. The only reason the Palestinians are even able to shoot rockets at Israel is because Israel allows them to exist and all Isreal wants is for that to stop so they're willing to at least pretend like they're willing to talk peace. Pals? Not so much. As far as I'm concerned until I see the Palestinians do a 180 I will continue to believe only idiots and apologists support them. PS the Palestinians have no more claim to the land than Israeli's. That shit wasn't their anyways and the countries it did belong to lost it to Israel.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Earth to JOS, Earth to JOS, Hamas is not part of the peace talks and Abbas and the Fatah party in the West Bank who have renounced violence are.

But then again, Hamas does not recognize Israel and calls Israel every name in the book, and in turn Israel does not recognize Hamas. Behold the power of pretend, but damned if both Israel and Hamas are both right in calling each other illegitimate terrorists.

But only you Brits have that special perspective, because before 1781, you called us Americans a bunch of rebel terrorists.

That is my point, the elected leadership are not part of the "peace talks".

Israel DOES recognise Hamas, they declare them the leadership of the Palestinians, also a terrorist orginisation, so does the rest of the civilised world.

And yeah, bring up irrelevant shit and try your damndest to make this about something that it isn't, PJABBER would be proud of his prodigy.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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posted by Lemon Law --And that is where you are wrong bfdd, yes Israel can wipe the Pals off the face of the earth, but then then Israel becomes exactly what the Nazi party was and everyone knows that. -- so how exactly was bfdd wrong?? What he said was totally 100% accurate and truthful!!

So instead we have a problem, we kick the can down the road, and it becomes a world problem that can turn into a bloodbath in the mid-east.

No Israel does not play nice, no Israel has no right to disputed land, no Israel is not the good guys either, and maybe its time to ask what fair to both Israel and the Palestinians. -- you opinion lacks a whole lot of credibility....
So Israel has not gone out of there way to warn the palestinian people when they were going to retaliate against Hamas?? Israel has not given back land that is has leggaly won in battle? The dispited land that you claim israel has no right to was taken while israel was defending itself. There is no unbiased authority that says Israel has no right to that land. Hell, even the UN charter does not address the issue of member states seizing land of non - member sates while defending themselves!!


Instead we are staying stuck on stupid by trying to label either Israel or the Palestinians as either the evil empire or a bunch of terrorists pigs. When such a black white description can't be applied to either side.

That is exactly the problem, we have no objective standard of what is FAIR. Unless we want to assume Israel robbed the Palestinian people fair and square. -- you will never ever be able to define the word fair.....objectiveley or any other way!!

Nice try though..........
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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A few hours ago I posted the Arab head cheese said before the Arab League meeting.
Now the meeting is over and the Arab League sides with Abbas. And also put a one month good faith deadline on Obama to make Netanyuhu see the light.

As for Netanyuhu, he comes back with the same ole bullshit everyone disbelieves that its all the Palestinians fault.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=190694

As the can gets kicked a few inches further down the road.

But the ring is now complete, no entity in the world has any faith in Israeli bullshit.

And I will go on record as saying Obama is a god damn fool if he does not simply yank the rug out from under Netanyuhu. Get rid of Netanyuhu and we will find greater Israel itself is far more reasonable. And then be able to achieve a just mid-east peace
is far more reasonable.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
In terms of today's Arab League meeting, the best link I can come up with is this one.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news...cribes-Peace-Talks-as-Negative-104578504.html

I note that the statements were made slightly ahead of the opening of talks, but given the statements were made by the Arab League head cheese, it probably summarizes the likely end consensus already reached. And will almost certainly not even remotely resemble what Common Courtesy wants as the Arab League is seeming taking the following position.

1. The Israeli Palestinian peace talks need a new direction but are presently fruitless without a Israeli Settlement Freeze extension.

2. The Arab League will only conditionally accept a Israeli temporary 60 day extension of the Settlement freeze. (a) Progress must be rapidly made on defining final borders
during those 60 days. (b) If at the end of 60 days, progress is insufficient to have well defined borders, then the Israeli settlement freeze must again be extended.

3. What set of action the Arab League will agree to jointly undertake if Israel does not extend the settlement freeze may also be part of this Arab League meeting.
"I vote we storm off to Israel and get our collective asses royally kicked again. Do I have a second? Nobody?" <crickets>

What a joke. The Pallies demand Israeli concessions as a precondition of negotiation, the Arab league issues its statement before its meeting, as JoS pointed out Abbas is not in power anyway (and we're supposed to overlook that the Pallies elected a TERRORIST organization to represent them), and we're supposed to care that Mitchell left without any concessions from Israel? Chance not.

Screw a settlement freeze. Don't want to lose your land? Don't attack your neighbor. It's a real simple concept.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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JediY and JOS, I do not expect you to agree with me, but maybe you will believe the US, the UN, the EU, the Russians, and now the PLO,and now the Arab League who are 100&#37; united in condemning the Israeli refusal to extend the settlement freeze.

Maybe you could spend your time more productively by asking what world entities still supports Israeli Netanyuhu settler party bullshit? And when you find the truthful answer is nobody, maybe you will wake up and smell the coffee. Meanwhile you live in a fool's paradise and the only one's you fool are yourselves.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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So Israel decides to give the Pals another chance to define the borders. After 30 days, the borders will not have been decided. And then the Arabs and Pals want another 30 days. Rinse and repeat.

Where were the Pals for the first 8 months of the freeze? Why? this is a question that can not be answered by the Pal supporters.

I would have Israel slow down the settlement but not freeze it. Let the Pals realize that Israel will accommodate if they do not try to jerk the talks around.

After 1 month, and the conditions that Pals have set forth are not completed; then Israel can fully activate the settlement with all speed possible.

Unless the Pals know that they have to deliver; they will stall.

By Israel also laying out conditions; it is up to the Pals to prove themselves.
Then even better; Israel can lay down a precondition that there will be no attacks AT ALL from the West Bank. One attack will trigger a breach and re-activate the settlements. Let the Pals sweat for their actions.

If the Pals can have preconditions for the talks; then the Israeli's should be able to also.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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It's rather obvious that all the Palestinians do is stall. They've stalled constantly on talks. It's a very well known and common negotiation technique. One stalls because they don't have the advantage and are waiting for it. That's the only reason one stalls a negotiation. It's because they think if they wait they'll eventually be able to get what they want. To bad it doesn't work and idiots like LL fall for it every time.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
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0
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So Israel decides to give the Pals another chance to define the borders. After 30 days, the borders will not have been decided. And then the Arabs and Pals want another 30 days. Rinse and repeat.

Where were the Pals for the first 8 months of the freeze? Why? this is a question that can not be answered by the Pal supporters.

I would have Israel slow down the settlement but not freeze it. Let the Pals realize that Israel will accommodate if they do not try to jerk the talks around.

After 1 month, and the conditions that Pals have set forth are not completed; then Israel can fully activate the settlement with all speed possible.

Unless the Pals know that they have to deliver; they will stall.

By Israel also laying out conditions; it is up to the Pals to prove themselves.
Then even better; Israel can lay down a precondition that there will be no attacks AT ALL from the West Bank. One attack will trigger a breach and re-activate the settlements. Let the Pals sweat for their actions.

If the Pals can have preconditions for the talks; then the Israeli's should be able to also.

qft and support



by defining 30 days or quit for the pals, all they are setting up is for more stalling.

they waited 8 months, the arab league, US, EU and possibly the russians support for direct talks to do it.


They do not care. All they want is world support. blank world support that wont continue much longer when the world sees they are simply stalling
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
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It's rather obvious that all the Palestinians do is stall. They've stalled constantly on talks. It's a very well known and common negotiation technique. One stalls because they don't have the advantage and are waiting for it. That's the only reason one stalls a negotiation. It's because they think if they wait they'll eventually be able to get what they want. To bad it doesn't work and idiots like LL fall for it every time.

The difference here is that the Pals feel that Israel will bend under pressure form external sources.

they fail to look at history and see that every stall job has made it more difficult to get anything from Israel in terms of land recovery.

They have seen land returned to Egypt and in Gaza; so feel that they can succeed. Ignoring that Egypt wanted peace and in Gaza; Israel attempted to allow the Palestinians to put up on the land for peace issue. The Pals failed here.

Because the Pals are dependant on outside Arab forces; they must dance to that tune rather than what is best for themselves. This has always been the situation - even back in '48; the Arabs realized it - the Pals were not mature enough for a state of their own.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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CC, that's what I'm saying. The Pals are stalling for a better situation, but the adverse is happening. Their people are most obviously insane as they continually do the same thing and expect a different outcome.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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The pals aren't stalling - the Israelis are, and that's because they're not done yet, because they intend to take and keep as much territory as they possibly can w/o world sanctions being placed upon them.

It's something that has to be achieved piecemeal over time. Any agreement that creates actual borders would preclude that, so they find a variety of rotating excuses and rationales to keep doing what they've been doing all along.

They have no intention of allowing a two state solution, and their ongoing settlement activities will render that impossible, anyway, somewhere down the road. They have no intention of allowing Pals equal rights within their Jewish state, either, with Netanyahu and others preferring a palistan sort of solution, if they can just beat down the pals far enough that they'll accept it...
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,320
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The pals aren't stalling - the Israelis are, and that's because they're not done yet, because they intend to take and keep as much territory as they possibly can w/o world sanctions being placed upon them.

It's something that has to be achieved piecemeal over time. Any agreement that creates actual borders would preclude that, so they find a variety of rotating excuses and rationales to keep doing what they've been doing all along.

They have no intention of allowing a two state solution, and their ongoing settlement activities will render that impossible, anyway, somewhere down the road. They have no intention of allowing Pals equal rights within their Jewish state, either, with Netanyahu and others preferring a palistan sort of solution, if they can just beat down the pals far enough that they'll accept it...

awwwww.........somebody got their pantys in a bunch...awwwww
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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The pals aren't stalling - the Israelis are, and that's because they're not done yet, because they intend to take and keep as much territory as they possibly can w/o world sanctions being placed upon them.

It's something that has to be achieved piecemeal over time. Any agreement that creates actual borders would preclude that, so they find a variety of rotating excuses and rationales to keep doing what they've been doing all along.

They have no intention of allowing a two state solution, and their ongoing settlement activities will render that impossible, anyway, somewhere down the road. They have no intention of allowing Pals equal rights within their Jewish state, either, with Netanyahu and others preferring a palistan sort of solution, if they can just beat down the pals far enough that they'll accept it...
Jhhnn if what you said in your first paragraph is true we wouldn't even be having this debate. Israel would already have those lands. Fact is the Pals are stalling, there's no fucking argument you can make that will prove otherwise. They had EIGHT MONTHS to come to the table and negotiate. They refused, they are stalling. That's all this is. Keep playing your idiotic fiddle and hum out reality. Moron.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Well one thing for sure, Jhnn and bfdd differ about 100&#37; on who is stalling as bfdd says,
"It's rather obvious that all the Palestinians do is stall. They've stalled constantly on talks. It's a very well known and common negotiation technique."

But at the end of the today, does it really matter what is said on P&N, when the world NOW 100% BLAMES ISRAEL FOR THE STALLING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So my challenge is to Israeli fan clubbers and remains, name one world entity that matters other than Israel itself who now still supports Israel's refusal to extend the settlement freeze?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Israel blew ALL their remaining credibility at Annapolis and Netanyuhu is now between a rock and a hard place. Netanyuhu has to placate his bat shit crazy settler parties that gag maggots or his ruling coalition falls.

But no one in the world believes Netanyuhu bullshit but its all Netanyuhu has is empty bullshit every one who matters is already on record as saying its bullshit. As the same ole same ole tired tune he plays has already jumped the shark.

Lots of reasonable people in Israel, but Netanyuhu is not one of them. Maybe like Richard Nixon he try to reinvent himself as the new new Netanyuhu.
 
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