Israel will not extend settlement freeze.

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Jhhnn if what you said in your first paragraph is true we wouldn't even be having this debate. Israel would already have those lands. Fact is the Pals are stalling, there's no fucking argument you can make that will prove otherwise. They had EIGHT MONTHS to come to the table and negotiate. They refused, they are stalling. That's all this is. Keep playing your idiotic fiddle and hum out reality. Moron.

Aww, I love it when you're reduced to ad homs. It means you have no argument, merely emotional froth.

The truth is that the Israelis do already have the territory by force of occupation. They just haven't finished moving the pals out and settling on it themselves. It's something they've necessarily done on the down-low for 40 years, and stuffing it in Joe Biden's face was a major error, something the Admin had to react to.

And if the pals were stalling, as you suggest, well, they're not now, so if Israel really wants peace, here's their chance, just like the many times they've managed to avoid making a deal in the past. They already have the best deal they can get, for their purposes, so why change it?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Aww, I love it when you're reduced to ad homs. It means you have no argument, merely emotional froth.

The truth is that the Israelis do already have the territory by force of occupation.-- nope not true at all! They won the territory by defending themselves. You are the same as Lemon law you invent your own slant on history to justify yourt assinine comments! They just haven't finished moving the pals out and settling on it themselves. It's something they've necessarily done on the down-low for 40 years, and stuffing it in Joe Biden's face was a major error, something the Admin had to react to. -- if you mean they have been defending themselves for 40 long years - then you are correct!! As far as Biden the administration did not do a damn thing!!

And if the pals were stalling, as you suggest, well, they're not now, so if Israel really wants peace, here's their chance, just like the many times they've managed to avoid making a deal in the past. They already have the best deal they can get, for their purposes, so why change it?
-- Just like Lemon law you just don`t get it.
This has everything to do with the safety of Israel and her citizens and nothing to do with a damn deal. You and Lemon law must have came from the same palestinina parents!!
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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-- Just like Lemon law you just don`t get it.
This has everything to do with the safety of Israel and her citizens and nothing to do with a damn deal. You and Lemon law must have came from the same palestinina parents!!

More desperate ad-homs and racist innuendo, too. Nice.

Continued Israeli expansion, the building of settlements, has nothing to do with the safety of Israel. There is, at this point, no credible existential threat to the State itself, and settlers can't possibly be safer on territory taken from the pals than on territory controlled prior to 1967.

Israeli actions aren't driven by safety concerns at all, but rather by greed. Deeds, not words, are the true measure of intention, and this map speaks to that in ways that are simple and plain-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2008/sep/11/israelandthepalestinians

That's not a pattern of occupation and settlement that speaks of intention to withdraw, ever, under any circumstances short of dire necessity.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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JediY, maybe its AGAIN time to explain that the Palestinians have lived inside of the West Bank and the part of the former British mandate that became Israel for centuries. They used to be first class citizens and now Israel has made them third class citizens in the very land of their birth. And if you can't see something very wrong with that, you are clearly a moral midget.

Meanwhile you bleat about Israeli safety which has the moral standing of bank robbers complaining about their safety after they start a shoot out with the police.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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JediY and JOS, I do not expect you to agree with me, but maybe you will believe the US, the UN, the EU, the Russians, and now the PLO,and now the Arab League who are 100% united in condemning the Israeli refusal to extend the settlement freeze.

Maybe you could spend your time more productively by asking what world entities still supports Israeli Netanyuhu settler party bullshit? And when you find the truthful answer is nobody, maybe you will wake up and smell the coffee. Meanwhile you live in a fool's paradise and the only one's you fool are yourselves.

If you had the capacity to read and comprehend you'd know that i'm against the settlements and also explained WHY they are actually going forth with them now.

However, these "peace talks" is like discussing the peace in Afghanistan with some random group in Afghanistan rather than the actual elected governmnent, it's useless and nothing what so ever can possibly come of it.

Hamas is the violent group, the very group that launches continous attacks against Israel and it's also an enemy of the PLO. What would happen if PLO actually got "peace" with Israel? Well the settlements would stop, that's great for Palestine, the continous attacks against Israel would continue though, probably worse than ever since Hamas don't like being sidestepped.

Israel has nothing to win here, nothing what so ever.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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If you had the capacity to read and comprehend you'd know that i'm against the settlements and also explained WHY they are actually going forth with them now.

However, these "peace talks" is like discussing the peace in Afghanistan with some random group in Afghanistan rather than the actual elected governmnent, it's useless and nothing what so ever can possibly come of it.

Hamas is the violent group, the very group that launches continous attacks against Israel and it's also an enemy of the PLO. What would happen if PLO actually got "peace" with Israel? Well the settlements would stop, that's great for Palestine, the continous attacks against Israel would continue though, probably worse than ever since Hamas don't like being sidestepped.

Israel has nothing to win here, nothing what so ever.

Heh. pretty lame, yourself. Israel and the Neocons forced the palestinian election, then sponsored the losers to revolt against the winners, thus splitting the pals into Gaza and the West Bank. It was quite deliberate, a setup to provide yet another excuse to not negotiate. Clearly, Fatah speaks for the West Bank and Hamas for Gaza, with the Israelis controlling any interchange other than by wireless communication... It's quite possible to make a deal with one while leaving out the other. History is full of such things. After the bolshevik revolution, the Russians sued for peace with the Germans, and got it, at a price. The Germans then concentrated their forces on the western front, and would have prevailed, had not the US entered the conflict.

You're right in the sense that the Israelis really have nothing to gain, because they don't really want to do anything to achieve peace, anyway. They've gained tremendously from conflict all along, both high level and low level, and that's ongoing, relentless, remorseless- the reason they have no intention of doing anything other than creating more settlements, obfuscating that by whatever means they can use.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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Aww, I love it when you're reduced to ad homs. It means you have no argument, merely emotional froth.

The truth is that the Israelis do already have the territory by force of occupation. They just haven't finished moving the pals out and settling on it themselves. It's something they've necessarily done on the down-low for 40 years, and stuffing it in Joe Biden's face was a major error, something the Admin had to react to.

And if the pals were stalling, as you suggest, well, they're not now, so if Israel really wants peace, here's their chance, just like the many times they've managed to avoid making a deal in the past. They already have the best deal they can get, for their purposes, so why change it?

You're so fucking ignorant and naive it's pathetic that you think you deserve to be in this conversation. Israel holds all the power, the land is theirs if they want it, they are trying to be at least "decent" about it, while the Pals have been mostly cry baby douche bags the whole time. Israel can wipe out the Pals, the Pals can't do the same. That right there should be evidence enough that Israel is pulling far more punches and giving far more credit to the Pals than vice versa.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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Heh. pretty lame, yourself. Israel and the Neocons forced the palestinian election, then sponsored the losers to revolt against the winners, thus splitting the pals into Gaza and the West Bank. It was quite deliberate, a setup to provide yet another excuse to not negotiate. Clearly, Fatah speaks for the West Bank and Hamas for Gaza, with the Israelis controlling any interchange other than by wireless communication... It's quite possible to make a deal with one while leaving out the other. History is full of such things. After the bolshevik revolution, the Russians sued for peace with the Germans, and got it, at a price. The Germans then concentrated their forces on the western front, and would have prevailed, had not the US entered the conflict.

You're right in the sense that the Israelis really have nothing to gain, because they don't really want to do anything to achieve peace, anyway. They've gained tremendously from conflict all along, both high level and low level, and that's ongoing, relentless, remorseless- the reason they have no intention of doing anything other than creating more settlements, obfuscating that by whatever means they can use.

I don't give a fuck what your fucked up political parties think in the US, are we fucking clear on that?

In reality, Israel has nothing to gain because Hamas will continue with their attacks on Israel regardless of any PLO deal.

Sometimes i think you define your enemies in your head and then you put that sticker on them regardless of what they say or do themselves. To me a settlement halt should be put forth regardless of "peace talks" with an organisation that wields no power what so ever in either the West Bank or Gaza.

The truth is, this is Obamas show, no one else really gives a fuck.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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What is instructive is the JOS statement that, "Israel has nothing to win here, nothing what so ever."

When we consider that the Palestinians owned over 60% of the land in pre 1948 Israel and now own nothing, should we not realize that, from a fairness perspective, the part that made the greatest illegal gains is going to have to make the greater concessions.

The JOS argument basically boils down to bank robbers, when caught, demanding to keep 100% of the money they stole because its not to their advantage to do anything else.

When India finally got around to giving you Brits the old heave ho, at least the Brits were rational enough to not demand a 50% or even a 1% share of India. Israel is in exactly the same position now, they have NO legitimate claim to the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem. Don't you think 43 years is a wee might too long for Israel to control and settle on land they DO NOT AND CAN NOT EVER OWN.

But then again, only people who do not think through rationally believe current Israeli bullshit reasoning.

For some 4000 years the so called Holy land of Israel has ping ponged in control every 100 years or so on average between various groups who want to pig it all, and maybe its time to think about fairly sharing it for a change.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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The question is who is pathetic ignorant when bfdd says, "You're so fucking ignorant and naive it's pathetic that you think you deserve to be in this conversation. Israel holds all the power, the land is theirs if they want it, they are trying to be at least "decent" about it."

There is nothing decent about what Israel is now doing and as much as Israel cries foul when Palestinians kill Israelis, Israelis not only murder more Palestinians they also strip Palestinians of all basic human rights. And then profess amazement when the the Palestinians and Arabs do not love them.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
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The question is who is pathetic ignorant when bfdd says, "You're so fucking ignorant and naive it's pathetic that you think you deserve to be in this conversation. Israel holds all the power, the land is theirs if they want it, they are trying to be at least "decent" about it."

There is nothing decent about what Israel is now doing and as much as Israel cries foul when Palestinians kill Israelis, Israelis not only murder more Palestinians they also strip Palestinians of all basic human rights. And then profess amazement when the the Palestinians and Arabs do not love them.

There is everything decent in what Israel is doing. They are in a position of extreme power over the Pals and as far as I can tell they aren't even close to abusing it. You think the blockade is an abuse of power, I disagree they are being attacked and they are forced to do so in order to continually protect themselves. Like I said, Israel isn't perfect, but you're a fucking moron LL for backing the Pals on this shit. Straight up fucking idiot.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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What is instructive is the JOS statement that, "Israel has nothing to win here, nothing what so ever."

When we consider that the Palestinians owned over 60% of the land in pre 1948 Israel and now own nothing, should we not realize that, from a fairness perspective, the part that made the greatest illegal gains is going to have to make the greater concessions.

The JOS argument basically boils down to bank robbers, when caught, demanding to keep 100% of the money they stole because its not to their advantage to do anything else.

When India finally got around to giving you Brits the old heave ho, at least the Brits were rational enough to not demand a 50% or even a 1% share of India. Israel is in exactly the same position now, they have NO legitimate claim to the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem. Don't you think 43 years is a wee might too long for Israel to control and settle on land they DO NOT AND CAN NOT EVER OWN.

But then again, only people who do not think through rationally believe current Israeli bullshit reasoning.

For some 4000 years the so called Holy land of Israel has ping ponged in control every 100 years or so on average between various groups who want to pig it all, and maybe its time to think about fairly sharing it for a change.

Quit posting irrelevant drivel and acknowledge what i said instead of making up strawmen to shoot down.

Also, look up the meaning of the word "negotiation", the PLO has nothing to offer what so ever so what is there to negotiate over?

Truth is, Obama wanted peace negotiations and a nice excuse to say "at least i tried" and he got it.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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The question is who is pathetic ignorant when bfdd says, "You're so fucking ignorant and naive it's pathetic that you think you deserve to be in this conversation. Israel holds all the power, the land is theirs if they want it, they are trying to be at least "decent" about it."

There is nothing decent about what Israel is now doing and as much as Israel cries foul when Palestinians kill Israelis, Israelis not only murder more Palestinians they also strip Palestinians of all basic human rights. And then profess amazement when the the Palestinians and Arabs do not love them.

As long as Hamas and their ilk keep up their acts of terrorism all and every measure to make sure they won't have the means to do so in the future will be taken, if the civilian Palestininans get hurt in the process then the guilt for that falls squarely on Hamas.

Regarding the settlements, i agree, it's fucking stupid and disgusting.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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I give JOS legitimate reasoning,and then rather than honestly rebutting it he simply dismisses it as irrelevant.

JOS its not a matter of what you believe, its all about Israel losing all credibility with the larger world. And after the loss of all legitimacy will come the required sticks to make Israel see the error of its ways. Or should I just confine it to Bozo Netanyuhu and his settler party extremist thugs who have to be first removed so other rational people on both sides can talk. Hamas is already removed so why not remove idiots from the Israeli side to even things up?

That is the other point JOS, none of you have bothered to tell us who in the world will support Israel now??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Cat got your tongue or what?
 
Jun 26, 2007
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I give JOS legitimate reasoning,and then rather than honestly rebutting it he simply dismisses it as irrelevant.

JOS its not a matter of what you believe, its all about Israel losing all credibility with the larger world. And after the loss of all legitimacy will come the required sticks to make Israel see the error of its ways. Or should I just confine it to Bozo Netanyuhu and his settler party extremist thugs who have to be first removed so other rational people on both sides can talk. Hamas is already removed so why not remove idiots from the Israeli side to even things up?

That is the other point JOS, none of you have bothered to tell us who in the world will support Israel now??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Cat got your tongue or what?

Are you drunk? I've already replied, several times but you cannot comprehend so you make shit up and argue against that instead.

You are boring me.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Originally Posted by Lemon law
I give JOS legitimate reasoning,and then rather than honestly rebutting it he simply dismisses it as irrelevant.

JOS its not a matter of what you believe, its all about Israel losing all credibility with the larger world. -- no Lemon it is you who has lost all credibility even among those who support your pro-palestinian stand!
And after the loss of all legitimacy will come the required sticks to make Israel see the error of its ways. Or should I just confine it to Bozo Netanyuhu and his settler party extremist thugs who have to be first removed so other rational people on both sides can talk. Hamas is already removed so why not remove idiots from the Israeli side to even things up? -- actually no Hamas is NOT removed. As yopu stated your previously ghamsa is the as you called it - Democratically" elected leader od the Palestinians!
That is the other point JOS, none of you have bothered to tell us who in the world will support Israel now??????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????
Nobody needs to asnwer your diatribe. It`s quiter obvious Israel has her supporters iether openly or under the table.


Cat got your tongue or what?-- truth be told JOS has clearly and accurately stated his case...while you on the other hand...

You conveniently ignore the facts that have previouslyt been posted concerning the UN Charter and your total mis-representation of the charter.

You also conveniently make no mention or ignore the fact in Hamas makes it clear that only the destruction of Israel will suffice.

So whats your problem Lemon law? Other than you like to lie, mis-represent the truth, rewrite history and dream big grandious dreams that Israel has somehow been isolated..lol....
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Well now tat Israel has totally isolated itself, that only thing to do is wait until that isolation results in negative consequences for Israel.

How those negative consequences play out is hard to predict but I suspect your boredom will soon change to concern and panic. Maybe Obama will forgive and forget if Israel is later forced to extend the settlement freeze, and again give up the negotiating advantage for a mere 60 day extension of the freeze, but I doubt the rest of the world will accept anything less than an absolute end to Israeli settlement in the West Bank and East Jerusalem while a Palestinian state is realized within in a year.

But that seems to be the Bozo Netanyuhu position as he wants heads I win tails I lose nothing. Which is seldom how it works in the real world. Lets put it this way, the coin certainly did not come up heads with the Arab League the last last chance for heads, so given the fact the outcome is tails, we can only ask what other than all credibility already lost will Israel lose?

One possibility is that the UN will simply ratify a Palestinian State, define its borders, and tell Israel to get out if Israel is not back at the table with a full settlement freeze in place in 1.00000000000000000 months from now. Then there are little matters like outstanding war crimes against Israel still hanging, the fact that the blockade of Gaza being declared illegal by the UN, the still outstanding Palestinian right to return issues still standing since 1948, and that makes Israeli total isolation a danger in the fact that isolation can turn into world wide revulsion very fast. Once events start to move against Israel, Netanyuhu will almost certainly not be able to stuff the genie back into the bottle by merely saying we will extend the settlement freeze.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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IS LL forgetting that Hamas has publicly stated that they will not honor any deal made by Fatah.

Should Israel just ignore what Hamasis doing. Who actually represents the Pals? Are they two seperate entities and should be treated as such?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
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How about being concerned about the Palestinian actions since '48. Or are those to be forgiven but not those of Israel.

The Pals chose to atttack Israel and have to accept the consequences. Why are they so special?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Well now tat Israel has totally isolated itself, that only thing to do is wait until that isolation results in negative consequences for Israel.

How those negative consequences play out is hard to predict but I suspect your boredom will soon change to concern and panic. Maybe Obama will forgive and forget if Israel is later forced to extend the settlement freeze, and again give up the negotiating advantage for a mere 60 day extension of the freeze, but I doubt the rest of the world will accept anything less than an absolute end to Israeli settlement in the West Bank and East Jerusalem while a Palestinian state is realized within in a year.

But that seems to be the Bozo Netanyuhu position as he wants heads I win tails I lose nothing. Which is seldom how it works in the real world. Lets put it this way, the coin certainly did not come up heads with the Arab League the last last chance for heads, so given the fact the outcome is tails, we can only ask what other than all credibility already lost will Israel lose?

One possibility is that the UN will simply ratify a Palestinian State, define its borders, and tell Israel to get out if Israel is not back at the table with a full settlement freeze in place in 1.00000000000000000 months from now. Then there are little matters like outstanding war crimes against Israel still hanging, the fact that the blockade of Gaza being declared illegal by the UN, the still outstanding Palestinian right to return issues still standing since 1948, and that makes Israeli total isolation a danger in the fact that isolation can turn into world wide revulsion very fast. Once events start to move against Israel, Netanyuhu will almost certainly not be able to stuff the genie back into the bottle by merely saying we will extend the settlement freeze.

You must have an endless supply of those mushrooms......
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
After eating those mushroom, assume that the UN will actually give the Pals a state based on the '67 borders.

What would the Pals do with Israel pulling the support plug and also the existing settlements.

Call for the UN to come and help?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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IS LL forgetting that Hamas has publicly stated that they will not honor any deal made by Fatah.

Should Israel just ignore what Hamasis doing. Who actually represents the Pals? Are they two seperate entities and should be treated as such?
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Is Common Courtesy forgetting the fact that Hamas is not part of the talks.???????????

And I wonder how long Bozo Netanyuhu will lead Israel as he gets booted from the equation also.

If Israel and the Pals can't settle it, what wrong with the larger world settling it for them?
Its the binding third party arbitration I have advocated for years.

But for its worth now, Hamas, Fatah, the Arabs, are all on their best behavior and Israeli behavior is being called into question.

Now matter how far back we want to go into the immediate pre-history of Israel, the only common denominator to be found is stinking Israeli, Palestinian, and Arab behavior.

The idea that Israel is the only angel here is totally false then and now. But its become totally totally false in the last decade as Israel is now out of all bounds of humanity.