Israel / Gaza Thread

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: dainthomas
Well here's a clue for Hamas then, if you have no military then attacking one of the most powerful militaries in the world might not be the healthiest lifestyle choice.

Standing by as Israel continues to expand their ethnic nationalist state by colonizing Palestinian land in the West Bank, hence depriving the Palestinian people of any chance of ever realizing sovereignty over their homeland, isn't much of a life either. Unfortunately, Israel has been doing that since long before Hamas ever existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

The Palestinian negotiators indicated they wanted full Palestinian sovereignty over all the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, although they would consider a one-to-one land swap with Israel. They maintained that Resolution 242 calls for full Israeli withdrawal from these territories, which were captured in the Six-Day War, as part of a final peace settlement, although Israel disputes this interpretation. In the 1993 Oslo Accords the Palestinian negotiators accepted the Green Line borders for the West Bank. Barak offered to form a Palestinian State initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10 to 25 years the West Bank area would expand to 90-91% (94% excluding greater Jerusalem).[1][2][3] As a result, "Israel would have withdrawn from 63 settlements."[4] The West Bank would be separated by a road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea, with free passage for Palestinians although Israel reserved the right to close the road for passage in case of emergency. The Palestinian position was that the annexations would block existing road networks between major Palestinian populations. In return, the Israelis would cede 1% of their territory in the Negev Desert to Palestine. The Palestinians rejected this proposal.

They were offered an independent Palestinian state encompassing close to 95% of the total area they were seeking. However the Palestinian leadership prefers to continue flouting their victim hood to the world in the hope that it will weaken and eventually destroy Israel. And they certainly don't mind sacrificing civilian lives on either side to further this end.

Don't for a second be deluded into thinking they would turn into a bunch of flower-wearing peaceniks if the cruel Israelis would only stop oppressing them. This is a crock and only the weak-minded continue to be fooled into thinking it.

The Israeli negotiators wanted the following requirements to be part of the agreement: Early warning stations inside the Palestinian state; Israeli control of Palestinian airspace; the right of Israel to deploy troops in the Palestinian state in the event of an emergency; the stationing of an international force in the Jordan Valley. Furthermore the Palestinian state was to be demilitarized.[9]

Gee how could they have rejected such a nice apartheid offer.

It would be suicidal for Israel to allow itself to be surrounded by a fully militarized Palestinian state and everyone knows it. The Camp David offer is the best they could reasonably expect. Of course it's hard to characterize people who strap bombs to women and children as reasonable, so that's where we're at.

If Israel refuses to accept a true dual state solution then the only other option is the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

See, that's just it. A "dual state" solution could easily be the end of Israel anyway.You either get a powerful Jewish state or a powerful Palestinian state. The two cannot coexist right next to each other. One will destroy the other. So then the decision is, which one do we want?

Or we could decide that a much stronger Jewish state that isn't threatened by a much weaker neighboring Palestinian state is the most stable solution. Unfortunately, Hamas' Iranian sponsors would never allow this.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: dainthomas
Well here's a clue for Hamas then, if you have no military then attacking one of the most powerful militaries in the world might not be the healthiest lifestyle choice.

Standing by as Israel continues to expand their ethnic nationalist state by colonizing Palestinian land in the West Bank, hence depriving the Palestinian people of any chance of ever realizing sovereignty over their homeland, isn't much of a life either. Unfortunately, Israel has been doing that since long before Hamas ever existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

The Palestinian negotiators indicated they wanted full Palestinian sovereignty over all the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, although they would consider a one-to-one land swap with Israel. They maintained that Resolution 242 calls for full Israeli withdrawal from these territories, which were captured in the Six-Day War, as part of a final peace settlement, although Israel disputes this interpretation. In the 1993 Oslo Accords the Palestinian negotiators accepted the Green Line borders for the West Bank. Barak offered to form a Palestinian State initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 10 to 25 years the West Bank area would expand to 90-91% (94% excluding greater Jerusalem).[1][2][3] As a result, "Israel would have withdrawn from 63 settlements."[4] The West Bank would be separated by a road from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea, with free passage for Palestinians although Israel reserved the right to close the road for passage in case of emergency. The Palestinian position was that the annexations would block existing road networks between major Palestinian populations. In return, the Israelis would cede 1% of their territory in the Negev Desert to Palestine. The Palestinians rejected this proposal.

They were offered an independent Palestinian state encompassing close to 95% of the total area they were seeking. However the Palestinian leadership prefers to continue flouting their victim hood to the world in the hope that it will weaken and eventually destroy Israel. And they certainly don't mind sacrificing civilian lives on either side to further this end.

Don't for a second be deluded into thinking they would turn into a bunch of flower-wearing peaceniks if the cruel Israelis would only stop oppressing them. This is a crock and only the weak-minded continue to be fooled into thinking it.

The Israeli negotiators wanted the following requirements to be part of the agreement: Early warning stations inside the Palestinian state; Israeli control of Palestinian airspace; the right of Israel to deploy troops in the Palestinian state in the event of an emergency; the stationing of an international force in the Jordan Valley. Furthermore the Palestinian state was to be demilitarized.[9]

Gee how could they have rejected such a nice apartheid offer.

It would be suicidal for Israel to allow itself to be surrounded by a fully militarized Palestinian state and everyone knows it. The Camp David offer is the best they could reasonably expect. Of course it's hard to characterize people who strap bombs to women and children as reasonable, so that's where we're at.

If Israel refuses to accept a true dual state solution then the only other option is the end of Israel as a Jewish state.

See, that's just it. A "dual state" solution could easily be the end of Israel anyway.You either get a powerful Jewish state or a powerful Palestinian state. The two cannot coexist right next to each other. One will destroy the other. So then the decision is, which one do we want?

Or we could decide that a much stronger Jewish state that isn't threatened by a much weaker neighboring Palestinian state is the most stable solution. Unfortunately, Hamas' Iranian sponsors would never allow this.

Why should they accept being the weaker state and having Israel lord over them? Israel's land grabs made it so that there can be no viable Jewish state and it is time for Israel to face that fact.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: ericlp
a few idiots with rockets strapped on their backs.

thats where you are wrong. get your facts straight.

Hamas is the government there. they control the money flow, the police, the medical care, food, and every thing else a normal government would.

they would rather spend money on missiles than help their people

Again, you don't get it.


I know a few people like Bush that would rather spend money on a few missiles then helping people.

These are crude low grade 'rockets' they are using by the way.... They are not controllable. Lucky to hit anything with them. You'll see, this will once again make matters worse and spread hatred. It will solve NOTHING...

Tho, prove me wrong. When has any religious war ended???

like I said before and I will say again. if I shoot at you and miss you 199 times but 1 shot grazes your arm, is it still ok that I missed 199 times?

your saying it doesnt matter that they are making missiles because they are low grade and uncontrollable.

it doesnt fucking matter if its a nuke or its a small rocket that cant even destroy a house. the fact is they have attacked israel first. they would rather spend their money on hate and destruction than helping their people, and that like this article has said, they would kill their own religion if they dont agree with them.


they are pigs and deserve to die

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: dainthomas
See, that's just it. A "dual state" solution could easily be the end of Israel anyway.You either get a powerful Jewish state or a powerful Palestinian state.

You are speaking in hypotheticals here, ignoring the fact that the Palestinians have no means to even approach the power Israel wields.

Originally posted by: dainthomas
Or we could decide that a much stronger Jewish state that isn't threatened by a much weaker neighboring Palestinian state is the most stable solution.

It is, and if only Israel would give up their colonization of the West Bank it could happen.

Originally posted by: dainthomas
Unfortunately, Hamas' Iranian sponsors would never allow this.

Hamas's sponsors never have and never will be any match for the sponsors of Israel's colonization of the West Bank.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
like I said before and I will say again. if I shoot at you and miss you 199 times but 1 shot grazes your arm, is it still ok that I missed 199 times?

It is great that you missed 199 times, and at least the one that grazed me would make me realize that I should stop provoking you by moving my family members into your house. Hoepfully before the you find yourself a more accurate gun.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The US also has the death penalty for treason.

We also conduct trials.

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

they are pigs and deserve to die

Nothing makes me smile more than Jews foaming at the mouth. They are rabid, yet call everybody else pigs. For a people who were nearly extinct from the holocaust and lost everything, they are sure one of the more powerful groups of people in existance today 70 years later.

It makes me ponder their ruthlessness and who is really truely the enemy.

You don't see that picture being painted?

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

they are pigs and deserve to die

Nothing makes me smile more than Jews foaming at the mouth. They are rabid, yet call everybody else pigs. For a people who were nearly extinct from the holocaust and lost everything, they are sure one of the more powerful groups of people in existance today 70 years later.

It makes me ponder their ruthlessness and who is really truely the enemy.

You don't see that picture being painted?

Wow, you would've fit in very well in Germany in the 1940s.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Wow, ATPN really has become little Freep. I've never seen so much ignorant crazy on here as I have in the last 2-3 days.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

so much ignorance 🙁

 

[keird]

I was just checking out the Jerusalem Post and I saw this recent video posted.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S...&videoId=1230456540180

If the translation is accurate... wow. The obvious indoctrination of children in to a culture of hate is something that's not acceptable. You cannot rationalize it to me. At this age I would expect something like Blues Clues in English to be more interesting to these kids than their '2 minute hate' from a polital officer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised, but watching videos of it never ceases to amaze me.

 

[kyle xy]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: freshgeardude
like I said before and I will say again. if I shoot at you and miss you 199 times but 1 shot grazes your arm, is it still ok that I missed 199 times?

It is great that you missed 199 times, and at least the one that grazed me would make me realize that I should stop provoking you by moving my family members into your house. Hoepfully before the you find yourself a more accurate gun.

Seriously? Just like that? Good to see your pride show through...so let me get this straight. If an Indian approached you and started slinging arrows at you claiming you were on his land...then you would move out? Just curious.

 

[brandonb]

Originally posted by: nixium

Wow, you would've fit in very well in Germany in the 1940s.

Yes, I probably would.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: keird
I was just checking out the Jerusalem Post and I saw this recent video posted.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S...&videoId=1230456540180

If the translation is accurate... wow. The obvious indoctrination of children in to a culture of hate is something that's not acceptable. You cannot rationalize it to me. At this age I would expect something like Blues Clues in English to be more interesting to these kids than their '2 minute hate' from a polital officer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not surprised, but watching videos of it never ceases to amaze me.

Hamas also had "jihad summer camps" they advertise on TV/Radio as does Hezbollah, you can google that for videos of them.

 

[Ozoned]

Hamas Shoot medical patients

Well, if this is how there health care system works, Looks like they got more work to do

 

[Lemon law]

As was expected, after a week of aerial bombing, the Israeli ground offensive has started.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01...04mideast.html?_r=1&hp

At least that is something the Palestinian people can see, rather than a plane or smart bomb that is gone almost before the damage begins, at least its possible to wave a fist at a tank.

The real question is how long will the new occupation of Gaza last, will Israel lose men and tank in the process, and is Israeli intel good enough to tell the difference between the 25,000 or so Hamas fighters, and the 1.5 million innocent civilians. I also wonder if Fatah will be invited by Israel to take over.

But, as Hamas is decimated, so will the social services Hamas used to provide.

The one thing I am fairly sure of, is that when this latest Gaza conflict is "over", it will have done little to change anything, as a 60 year conflict will go merrily along, the hatreds on both sides will be deeper, and little else.

 

[Aimster]

Hamas doesn't have any advanced weapons. They are sending in men with guns to fight tanks.

 

[LittleNemoNES]

Maybe if Israel just sits and waits they'll slowly pick off all of Hamas Gunmen.

That said, what a disproportionate show of force!

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: gersson
Maybe if Israel just sits and waits they'll slowly pick off all of Hamas Gunmen.

That said, what a disproportionate show of force!

Disproportionate show of force? The aim is to defeat the enemy, not a fair fight.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: gersson

That said, what a disproportionate show of force!

What planet are you from? So they should fight with pussy rocket-and-run attacks? Or throw rocks? 😕

 

[Lemon law]

We should not judge pro -Israel support by the USA reaction, almost every nation on earth is less friendly to Israel.

Here is the yahoo news link on the mainly European reaction.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_...gi4tfkQS0mGlcFV8Ws0NUE

This Gaza offensive coming on the heels of the previous disproportionate rape of Lebanon 30 months ago may build into a world wide resolve to muzzle the pit bull. Europe has a far larger and angry Muslim population and they can see why they are angry, while the USA has only one 911, Europe is a central target, and see no reason to let Israel build tensions.

Israel could be facing long term facing an economic embargo, the USA can make such an embargo leak, but only at a price.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
We should not judge pro -Israel support by the USA reaction, almost every nation on earth is less friendly to Israel.

Here is the yahoo news link on the mainly European reaction.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_...gi4tfkQS0mGlcFV8Ws0NUE

This Gaza offensive coming on the heels of the previous disproportionate rape of Lebanon 30 months ago may build into a world wide resolve to muzzle the pit bull. Europe has a far larger and angry Muslim population and they can see why they are angry, while the USA has only one 911, Europe is a central target, and see no reason to let Israel build tensions.

Israel could be facing long term facing an economic embargo, the USA can make such an embargo leak, but only at a price.

Who cares about "support"? When defending yourself, it doesnt really matter what anti-semetic muslims around the world think.

Gee, I wonder if the Chechens support this?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
We should not judge pro -Israel support by the USA reaction, almost every nation on earth is less friendly to Israel.

Here is the yahoo news link on the mainly European reaction.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_...gi4tfkQS0mGlcFV8Ws0NUE

This Gaza offensive coming on the heels of the previous disproportionate rape of Lebanon 30 months ago may build into a world wide resolve to muzzle the pit bull. Europe has a far larger and angry Muslim population and they can see why they are angry, while the USA has only one 911, Europe is a central target, and see no reason to let Israel build tensions.

Israel could be facing long term facing an economic embargo, the USA can make such an embargo leak, but only at a price.

Embargo by whom exactly? Even Arab countries sit quietly through this one. Most of the world leaders understand whats going on, I suggest you get up to speed yourself.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: gersson
Maybe if Israel just sits and waits they'll slowly pick off all of Hamas Gunmen.

That said, what a disproportionate show of force!

Disproportionate show of force? The aim is to defeat the enemy, not a fair fight.

+1

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Hamas doesn't have any advanced weapons. They are sending in men with guns to fight tanks.

I would be amazed if hamas hasn't placed hundreds of IED's already. May not be the armor penetrating quality of what you see in Iraq but I imagine it's enough to kill infantry and disable vehicles.

If not, well a stupid terrorist is better then a smart one.

 

[SandEagle]

picture #2 and #4 speak for themselves: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7809755.stm

#2: incendiary phosphorous weapons against civilian populations is a violation of the Geneva Conventions
#4: compare that to the tiny Qassams. a disproportionate show of force indeed, paid for with our tax dollars

Never again, unless you're Palestinian