Israel / Gaza Thread

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: eskimospy
It doesn't, however the relative lethality of the attacks most certainly alters the appropriate response. The rational reaction to me throwing a rock through your window is much different than if it was a hand grenade.

I guess Isreal is just going to go in there and fuck them all up until they won't want to use rockets? How are they getting this shit? I thought Israel turned the whole place into some giant ghetto/concentration camp thing.

if I shoot at you 200 times, nothing hits you except a shot that grazed your arm, is it still ok that I missed you 199 times?

If someone else from my town shoots at you 200 times, grazes you on one of those shots, and misses 199 times, is it ok if I get pissed off if you respond by killing his family, my family, hundreds of others, destroying my town, cutting off my food, water, medicine, electricity and fuel supplies, and put guard towers around my city to fire at people (including kids) at random whenever you feel like it?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: RichardE
What happened to the peace loving flower carrying Palestinian people who would never really ever want violence?

There are still some around, but your constant attempts to paint Palestinians as a whole based on the actions of the worst isn't helping them.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: eskimospy
It doesn't, however the relative lethality of the attacks most certainly alters the appropriate response. The rational reaction to me throwing a rock through your window is much different than if it was a hand grenade.

I guess Isreal is just going to go in there and fuck them all up until they won't want to use rockets? How are they getting this shit? I thought Israel turned the whole place into some giant ghetto/concentration camp thing.

if I shoot at you 200 times, nothing hits you except a shot that grazed your arm, is it still ok that I missed you 199 times?

If someone else from my town shoots at you 200 times, grazes you on one of those shots, and misses 199 times, is it ok if I get pissed off if you respond by killing his family, my family, hundreds of others, destroying my town, cutting off my food, water, medicine, electricity and fuel supplies, and put guard towers around my city to fire at people (including kids) at random whenever you feel like it?

but if you/ other person in your town were hamas, you ruled over an area, spent the money given to your village to more guns/ bullets and that person hid behind you when it came time for him to be rightfully punished, what about then?


edit: besides, its not like Israel fires into gaza ever day. its only been now. and by the way, imagine those 200 bullets were fired every day at you. would you feel safe that it will only be a graze again and not something serious?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

besides, its not like Israel fires into gaza ever day. its only been now.

It hasn't been every day, but it has been before now, it has been before Hamas ever existed.

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

and by the way, imagine those 200 bullets were fired every day at you. would you feel safe that it will only be a graze again and not something serious?

I'd acknowledge the fact that moving my family members into the shooters home is provoking his fire, and withdrawal them to our home.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1

Originally posted by: freshgeardude

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: eskimospy
It doesn't, however the relative lethality of the attacks most certainly alters the appropriate response. The rational reaction to me throwing a rock through your window is much different than if it was a hand grenade.

I guess Isreal is just going to go in there and fuck them all up until they won't want to use rockets? How are they getting this shit? I thought Israel turned the whole place into some giant ghetto/concentration camp thing.

if I shoot at you 200 times, nothing hits you except a shot that grazed your arm, is it still ok that I missed you 199 times?

If someone else from my town shoots at you 200 times, grazes you on one of those shots, and misses 199 times, is it ok if I get pissed off if you respond by killing his family, my family, hundreds of others, destroying my town, cutting off my food, water, medicine, electricity and fuel supplies, and put guard towers around my city to fire at people (including kids) at random whenever you feel like it?

but if you/ other person in your town were hamas, you ruled over an area, spent the money given to your village to more guns/ bullets and that person hid behind you when it came time for him to be rightfully punished, what about then?


edit: besides, its not like Israel fires into gaza ever day. its only been now. and by the way, imagine those 200 bullets were fired every day at you. would you feel safe that it will only be a graze again and not something serious?

Would you feel safe seeing the food and water supply run out and knowing that your children will either starve to death or die from dehydration unless you (or someone else) managed to break through the line of prison guards and smuggle food in?

Israel bombs and bulldozers houses away pretty much at random. Hamas is the only one there who helps those that lost their house, simply for the reason that they are the only ones with still some resources needed for it.
It's like the reason why Hezbollah is popular in Lebanon: They are the only ones who help the population and while the army runs away stays behind to find those attacking. That they continue attacking Israel (with very little succes) after half the country has been destroyed and the Israeli army falls back again is something those who lost their house and their family strangely enough do not mind.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
No excuses, just stating the facts.

You've been rather loose with the facts, which why I got the impression you are trying to excuse the ethnic cleansing of Arab localities prior to the Arab nations attacking Israel.

You're rewriting history. The "cleansing" you are talking about occurred during, and as a direct result, of the '48 war, and not the other way around.

2) The Arabs have never drove the Jews into the edges of Israel.

Only because the never won a war.

6) The colonization of the West Bank started directly following the Six-day War, while the First Intifada started two decades later.

Why, then, the PLO - a terrorist organization second only to Hamas - formed in 1964? It predates the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Could it be they are interested in the rest of Israel?

Beyond that, do you have any defense for Israel contending to colonize the West Bank today?

No one wants it to turn into a 2nd Gaza. I can't possibly see Israel withdrawing from there in the next 5 years.

What's your obsession with the West Bank, anyway? Had it been under Jordanian control, all the Palestinians national aspirations would have been crushed by the king, and no one would get to force Jordan to retreat from that area. Who does the West Bank belong to?

 

[ra990]

Israelis are killing almost 100 Palestinians for every 1 dead Israeli. At what point do we look at this as what it is? Genocide.

What kind of war can you have when the other side's military consists of people with rockets and guns? They have an air force, a navy, advanced weaponry. "War till the bitter end?" Haha, what a joke.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't respond to the Hamas threat, but this is not a fair response.

Not to mention, that this is doing nothing more than breeding more suicide bombers that they will have to deal with. For each child killed, there will be at least 2 people willing to strap up and die for revenge and because their lives are no longer meaningless - the mother and father.

So kill them all right? Wipe them all out in the name of "protection" from a few. While the world looks on and the US hold's up its promise to the Israelis about never letting another holocaust happen.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: jpeyton
The US also has the death penalty for treason.

...which is a constitutionally defined crime for which the accused are afforded due process. The death penalty, despite all its faults here in the US...cannot be compared to what this story claims. This was a murder by an armed goon squad, if true.

You're talking to jpeyton, if i am shot dead tomorrow, he'll celebrate a winning cause.

i'm still amazed that the tool is a mod.


---------------------------------------
This is a Mod callout and not allowed.
See you in a week.

Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy

 

[Harabec]

I find it funny that people here (who have probably never been to a warzone or anywhere near a conflict) argue about "fair fights" or "measured responses" or other BS.
Just be glad you're not at war - with that attitude you have already lost.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
You're rewriting history. The "cleansing" you are talking about occurred during, and as a direct result, of the '48 war, and not the other way around.

I am simply recounting history. On May 15 1948, the Arabs nations declared war on Israel. In the months prior to that day, over 400,000 Arab civilians were displaced by Israeli millitas That was not during, or as result of the '48 war, it was before it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1...Palestinian_localities

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
2) The Arabs have never drove the Jews into the edges of Israel.

Only because the never won a war.

Please note that "Arabs attacked and drove the Jews well back into the edges of Israel" is what Common Courtesy wrote.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
6) The colonization of the West Bank started directly following the Six-day War, while the First Intifada started two decades later.

Why, then, the PLO - a terrorist organization second only to Hamas - formed in 1964? It predates the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Could it be they are interested in the rest of Israel?

Please note that "Then comes the infadas (sp)and Israel needs a larger buffer. Such starts the settlements on the West Bank and Gaza." is what Common Courtesy wrote.

From that exchange, I get the impression that you have mistaken me for the enemy. Please remember that I firmly support Israel's right to exist.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
No one wants it to turn into a 2nd Gaza. I can't possibly see Israel withdrawing from there in the next 5 years.

I most certainly don't, which is why recommend Israeli solders stay in the West Bank while the Israeli civians withdraw. That way the troops can matian order, instead of leaving a power vaccum like they did in Gaza.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
What's your obsession with the West Bank, anyway?

The West Bank isn't really my obsession, it is the obsession of the people behind the colonization of it. My obsssion is in seeing a just resolution to this conflict, which requires and end to the colonzation of the West Bank. Perhaps a map would help:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf

Those dark blue spots are were Israeli civilians have moved in over the past four decades, and the lighter blue areas are what the Israeli military controls to protect them. This process continues to this day, effectively denying the Palestinians the hope of ever achieving sovereignty in their own homeland.

Surely you don't mean to justify this? You are the same guy who agreed with me when I said:

That isn't to say the colonization of Palestine which lead to the establishment of Israel was in any way justifiable, it was nothing of the sort.

Right?

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: ra990
Israelis are killing almost 100 Palestinians for every 1 dead Israeli. At what point do we look at this as what it is? Genocide.

What kind of war can you have when the other side's military consists of people with rockets and guns? They have an air force, a navy, advanced weaponry. "War till the bitter end?" Haha, what a joke.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't respond to the Hamas threat, but this is not a fair response.

Not to mention, that this is doing nothing more than breeding more suicide bombers that they will have to deal with. For each child killed, there will be at least 2 people willing to strap up and die for revenge and because their lives are no longer meaningless - the mother and father.

So kill them all right? Wipe them all out in the name of "protection" from a few. While the world looks on and the US hold's up its promise to the Israelis about never letting another holocaust happen.

You are completely clueless when it comes to war. The purpose of war is to achieve strategic national objectives when other methods have failed. You do that by overwhelming the enemy if at all possible. There is nothing fair in war. And comparing war against a terrorist group with the holocaust is just laughable.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
No excuses, just stating the facts.

You've been rather loose with the facts, which why I got the impression you are trying to excuse the ethnic cleansing of Arab localities prior to the Arab nations attacking Israel. However, as it seems you are simply missinformed, I'll list some obvious points that color your argument bellow:

1) The claim Arabs nations asked Palestinians to leave in preparation of attack is completely unsubstantiated.

2) The Arabs have never drove the Jews into the edges of Israel.

3) those 400K people who were displaced before the Arab nations attacked all wound up under Israeli control, and by the time the war ended the number Arab civilians displaced by Israel had doubled, and Israel was never a friendly overseer of their lands.

4) Many of those displaced did wind up living in Gaza and the West Bank, as do their descendents today.

5) Moving civilians into buffer zones undermines their purpose, at which point they become zones of colonization.

6) The colonization of the West Bank started directly following the Six-day War, while the First Intifada started two decades later.

I hope you might check your sources to determine how you arrived at such misunderstandings, as they flagrantly color your perspective of this conflict.

Beyond that, do you have any defense for Israel contending to colonize the West Bank today?

w/ respect to the Arab nations urging the local ouit, each side has their own interpretation of the messages taht were sent out from the Arab nations prior to the Mandate ending. those that were around are no longer so to state what was meant.

By driving the Jews to the edge, I was attempting to indicate that (excluding '67), on each of the conflicts, Israel has had to fall back, ceding territory until they could recover to stabilize the lines and start to repel the opposing forces. I did not mean to imply that they were driven to the sea (ala Dunkirk)

My timing on the West Bank vs the first Intifada is off.
The West Bank was an attempt to generate a trip wire after the '67 Conflict. And it may have helped prevent Jordan from particpating in the '73 conflict.

That is one of the purposes of the settlements, to attempt to dtect and alert the main supporting force of trouble.

Land is taken and absorbed by the conqueror for their own use/needs. Fact of war.
Jordan surrendered the West Bank to Israel. Why swhould there be restrictions on Israel from the loser on what to do with the land?

Many displaced went into camps in Gaza and the West Bank because the Arab nations refused to take care of them and the locals did not want them on their lands.

It still boils down to that people were displaced due to war and those that were responsible for the war lost caused the consequences. An none of the Arab countries want to take on the responsiblity that they original stated they would, leaving the local Palestinians in limbo.

Isreal will not bend over backwards to help as long as there are people still acting hostile toward them. Israel has been very tolerant of the PAlestinians compared to history and the Arab nations.

 

[Czar]

So you are shocked now but not when Israel shoots at ambulances, drives them away, stops them at checkpoints and all resulting in countless deaths.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: ra990
Israelis are killing almost 100 Palestinians for every 1 dead Israeli. At what point do we look at this as what it is? Genocide.

What kind of war can you have when the other side's military consists of people with rockets and guns? They have an air force, a navy, advanced weaponry. "War till the bitter end?" Haha, what a joke.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't respond to the Hamas threat, but this is not a fair response.

How is it Israel's fault that Palestinians suck at war?

The only thing they're good at is poke-poke-poking at Israel and when the inevitable whooping ensues they play the victim card. It's happened so many times I can't believe people continue to fall for it.

They should turn that place into a glass bowl and get it over with. How many Japanese "insurgents" were around after WW2? And they were at least as fervent in their cause as these guys. The firebombing of German cities is another good example. If you're going to fight a war, don't do it half-assed. All that's good for is dragging it out for years and years (see also: Iraq, Afghanistan).

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Czar
So you are shocked now but not when Israel shoots at ambulances, drives them away, stops them at checkpoints and all resulting in countless deaths.

So, I see that you're a big fan of Pallywood Productions... that's great! Have you seen the episode where the Pal guy runs in circles screaming after being told to act like kids are dying everywhere, and they have to take a second and third cut because the guy looks too much like a jackass!

I just love that show! It ranks right up there with The Office...

:roll:

 

[brandonb]

Oh, this came from JewYorkTimes. Of course its not biased or anything. Its called that for a reason.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: ra990
Israelis are killing almost 100 Palestinians for every 1 dead Israeli. At what point do we look at this as what it is? Genocide.

What kind of war can you have when the other side's military consists of people with rockets and guns? They have an air force, a navy, advanced weaponry. "War till the bitter end?" Haha, what a joke.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't respond to the Hamas threat, but this is not a fair response.

How is it Israel's fault that Palestinians suck at war?

The only thing they're good at is poke-poke-poking at Israel and when the inevitable whooping ensues they play the victim card. It's happened so many times I can't believe people continue to fall for it.

They should turn that place into a glass bowl and get it over with. How many Japanese "insurgents" were around after WW2? And they were at least as fervent in their cause as these guys. The firebombing of German cities is another good example. If you're going to fight a war, don't do it half-assed. All that's good for is dragging it out for years and years (see also: Iraq, Afghanistan).

You speak the truth. The Palestinians must be pacified in the same manner as the Japanese -- through overwhelming force. There is no other option.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: ra990
Israelis are killing almost 100 Palestinians for every 1 dead Israeli. At what point do we look at this as what it is? Genocide.

What kind of war can you have when the other side's military consists of people with rockets and guns? They have an air force, a navy, advanced weaponry. "War till the bitter end?" Haha, what a joke.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't respond to the Hamas threat, but this is not a fair response.

How is it Israel's fault that Palestinians suck at war?

The only thing they're good at is poke-poke-poking at Israel and when the inevitable whooping ensues they play the victim card. It's happened so many times I can't believe people continue to fall for it.

They should turn that place into a glass bowl and get it over with. How many Japanese "insurgents" were around after WW2? And they were at least as fervent in their cause as these guys. The firebombing of German cities is another good example. If you're going to fight a war, don't do it half-assed. All that's good for is dragging it out for years and years (see also: Iraq, Afghanistan).

How many millions of troops did we have in Germany when the war ended? How many millions of dollars of aid did we spend to rebuild Europe?

Israel is reenacting world war I over and over. Win the war and leave the place you conquered a mess.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: smack Down
How many millions of troops did we have in Germany when the war ended? How many millions of dollars of aid did we spend to rebuild Europe?

Israel is reenacting world war I over and over. Win the war and leave the place you conquered a mess.

The Marshall Plan was $119 billion in 2007 dollars. Of course Gaza is a speck compared to the entire continent of Europe. I figure if it was leveled it might take a few billion max to rebuild, and wouldn't take nearly as many troops to keep the peace.

 

[ra990]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: ra990
Israelis are killing almost 100 Palestinians for every 1 dead Israeli. At what point do we look at this as what it is? Genocide.

What kind of war can you have when the other side's military consists of people with rockets and guns? They have an air force, a navy, advanced weaponry. "War till the bitter end?" Haha, what a joke.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't respond to the Hamas threat, but this is not a fair response.

How is it Israel's fault that Palestinians suck at war?

The only thing they're good at is poke-poke-poking at Israel and when the inevitable whooping ensues they play the victim card. It's happened so many times I can't believe people continue to fall for it.

They should turn that place into a glass bowl and get it over with. How many Japanese "insurgents" were around after WW2? And they were at least as fervent in their cause as these guys. The firebombing of German cities is another good example. If you're going to fight a war, don't do it half-assed. All that's good for is dragging it out for years and years (see also: Iraq, Afghanistan).

You speak the truth. The Palestinians must be pacified in the same manner as the Japanese -- through overwhelming force. There is no other option.

At least the Japanese had a military. Call this what you want. War it is not.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: ra990

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: ra990
Israelis are killing almost 100 Palestinians for every 1 dead Israeli. At what point do we look at this as what it is? Genocide.

What kind of war can you have when the other side's military consists of people with rockets and guns? They have an air force, a navy, advanced weaponry. "War till the bitter end?" Haha, what a joke.

I'm not saying Israel shouldn't respond to the Hamas threat, but this is not a fair response.

How is it Israel's fault that Palestinians suck at war?

The only thing they're good at is poke-poke-poking at Israel and when the inevitable whooping ensues they play the victim card. It's happened so many times I can't believe people continue to fall for it.

They should turn that place into a glass bowl and get it over with. How many Japanese "insurgents" were around after WW2? And they were at least as fervent in their cause as these guys. The firebombing of German cities is another good example. If you're going to fight a war, don't do it half-assed. All that's good for is dragging it out for years and years (see also: Iraq, Afghanistan).

You speak the truth. The Palestinians must be pacified in the same manner as the Japanese -- through overwhelming force. There is no other option.

At least the Japanese had a military. Call this what you want. War it is not.

It doesn't matter if the Palestinians have a military or not. They choose to attack Israel, therefore Israel must pacify them, and force is the only option. Diplomacy will not work.

 

[ra990]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig
It doesn't matter if the Palestinians have a military or not. They choose to attack Israel, therefore Israel must pacify them, and force is the only option. Diplomacy will not work.

By pacify you mean completely wipe them off the face of the earth, right? Because continuously killing them is only breeding more hate, violence, and support for Hamas on their side.

 

[fskimospy]

Wow, ATPN really has become little Freep. I've never seen so much ignorant crazy on here as I have in the last 2-3 days.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: ra990

Originally posted by: theflyingpig
It doesn't matter if the Palestinians have a military or not. They choose to attack Israel, therefore Israel must pacify them, and force is the only option. Diplomacy will not work.

By pacify you mean completely wipe them off the face of the earth, right? Because continuously killing them is only breeding more hate, violence, and support for Hamas on their side.

If that is what it takes, yes. It was shown time and time again that the Japanese were willing to fight down to the last man. I'm sure you've heard of the Japanese soldier who was found living in a cave nearly 50 years after the war was over. The Japanese also established the first suicide bomber; the Kamikaze. That is how dedicated these men were to their cause. So how did we win? How did we defeat such a fanatical enemy? By overwhelming force. They had been pushed back to their homeland, only to see it in ruin.The Japanese were faced with the complete destruction of their entire civilization. So they surrendered. They realized that they had no chance of victory. Their will to fight was broken. That is what must be done in Gaza.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig

Originally posted by: ra990

Originally posted by: theflyingpig
It doesn't matter if the Palestinians have a military or not. They choose to attack Israel, therefore Israel must pacify them, and force is the only option. Diplomacy will not work.

By pacify you mean completely wipe them off the face of the earth, right? Because continuously killing them is only breeding more hate, violence, and support for Hamas on their side.

If that is what it takes, yes. It was shown time and time again that the Japanese were willing to fight down to the last man. I'm sure you've heard of the Japanese soldier who was found living in a cave nearly 50 years after the war was over. The Japanese also established the first suicide bomber; the Kamikaze. That is how dedicated these men were to their cause. So how did we win? How did we defeat such a fanatical enemy? By overwhelming force. They had been pushed back to their homeland, only to see it in ruin.The Japanese were faced with the complete destruction of their entire civilization. So they surrendered. They realized that they had no chance of victory. Their will to fight was broken. That is what must be done in Gaza.

Come back to reality. There was peace because the empire said there would be peace. It was as much political as military.