Israel / Gaza Thread

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Why we will never have peace as long as muslim extremism exists..

Sure, there is no reason to accept that even pretty young girls can be driven to the insanity of committing terrorism though being stripped of their their civil rights and their homeland by overwhelming military superiority, at least not when you can blame it on their religion. :disgust:

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: palehorse
Because, I don't believe either side will ever let go of their histories, hatreds, biases, and other ridiculous points of stubborn contention.

The vast majority of the nations of world believes this conflict can be resolved peacefully, and only US veto power holds the UN back from taking the steps to make that happen.

So, what makes you so sure you yourself here, do you have a rational argument to back your position?

Originally posted by: palehorse
Second, what I hypothesized is not "the final solution." Eviction is not the same thing as extermination.

It is not "the final solution" the Nazi's attempted, but the ethnic-cleansing you proposed is no less the extermination of a nation, and the goal is of robing "undesirable" people of their homeland is the same.

How is the conflict going to be resolved peacefully by the UN.
The UN can not secure the northern border of Israel.

The UN is not going to sanction Israel and as we have seen demonstrated, UN sanctions are toothless anyhow when money can be made.

The Palestinians have never listened to the UN - they have always whimpered to them when their poke the tiger policy backfires.

Do you think the Palestinians are going to go to the UN and state that they want peace and will not attack Israel?

Back in 48, the Arabs were supposed to take care of the Palestinians until the Palestinians grew up.
What PH is stating as #5, is to force the Arabs to honor their word. Remove all the Palestinians from the territory that Israel controls and dump them on the Arab nations.

That is what the Arab nations attempted to do to Israel. Except to dump them in the sea, not on a firendly supporter.

In fact, have Egypt give them the Sinai as a place to develop if no Arab nation wants to provide them a homeland. Or does Egypt not want those trouble makers either?
They are supported by Syria - send them there. If Syria does not want them (only the leadership that funnel graft is welcome), then maybe Iran that is complaining so loud will step up to the late and show their loving hands (they have already showed their "loving" arms).

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
But, but - that is not Hamas, but another group

That is the excuse used by the Palestinians supporters back in June.
Or another excuse was that without the document (actual verbage) of the truce, who knows what was agreed to. Hamas statements and others did not mean squat without the actual words being made available.

Hamas arrested the leader of that group and others. What more can you expect of them? They can't rightly stop anyone who might launch a rocket, just like our government can't rightly stop methamphetamine production.

Do you not even realize how absurd your arguments are, or are you just making them anyway in the hopes others might not?

When Hamas comes out publicly and states that they will not attempt to stop; they need to be taken at their word. They made no excuses or anything for it happening - they showed support for it.
They know who is launching, where the materials are, where the materials are coming from.

If they wanted to crack down over the 6 months of the "truce" they could have. It was not politically feasible to do so. To do so would subject Hamas to the same powerplay that they used previously. Those groups act the same way the militant wings did for the PLO. Provide a sense of plausible deniability, while behind backs there high fives being done.

Given the size of Gaza and the influence/control that Hamas has over the area, they will know when an attack is being launched. Once launched, they could also seal the area off, could capture those responsible and use them as an example of what not to do. Instead, those groups were given additional chances.

You are talking a few miles along the border, not the entire Gaza strip.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: RichardE
Why we will never have peace as long as muslim extremism exists..

Sure, there is no reason to accept that even pretty young girls can be driven to the insanity of committing terrorism though being stripped of their their civil rights and their homeland by overwhelming military superiority, at least not when you can blame it on their religion. :disgust:

I knew you would justify terrorist acts like you have been for months. You are disgusting in your justifications, luckily your pacifist views of tolerance to this enemy is a dying breed of views.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
What compels you to willfully misrepresent what people say in regard to this issue? cwjerome has not been "cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine".

Cwjerome suggested freshgeardude's recount of history was correct, when it has flagrant errors. That is cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine, whether you ever care to admit as much or not.

Furthermore Plan Dalet included depopulating and outright destroying hundreds of Arab villages all across both sides of the UN partition plan, both the details that plan as well as it's execution are well documented. the fact that it was called a "defence plan" is nothing more than a semantic argument. In practice Plan Dalet was an ethnic cleansing carried out on hundreds of thousands of civilians by means of overwhelming military force and outright terrorism.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
How is the conflict going to be resolved peacefully by the UN.

It's rather complicated, but I assure you all the nations of the world who vote to do so every year for decades understand how to accomplish that goal. I can't expect you to understand though, as you are obviously intent on Israel continuing it's conquest over what little of Palestine is left.

At least all Hamas demands is for Israel to accept Palestinians rights as the UN affirms them constantly. You on the other hand promote this senseless violence out of an insistence on denying Palestinians those right, with callous disregard to the death and destruction Israel's ongoing conquest brings to both sides. You are worse than Hamas.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: cwjerome
You talk as if history matters at this point. All your posts dwell on history.

Please don't nag me for addressing the misrepresentations of history others present, and please don't claim they are right when you obviously have no interest in even understanding separating the facts from the fiction.

LOL... you. just. don't. get. it.

Originally posted by: cwjerome
My Palestinian loving friend, history is what keeps this conflict going.

What keeps this conflict going is willful idiots like yourself, who assume you know exactly what is going on, but have little grasp on reality. I am equally concerned for Israelis and Palestinians, but you are obviously wrapped too tight in your own head to understand that from me, or the many Israelis who have taken the time to study the history and the ongoing realities of this conflict and agree with me.

Why do you hold such callous disregard for the masses who suffer on both sides of this conflict? What do you get out of cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine?

But you're wrong. I don't assume... I say it straight out, I do not know a lot about the issue and I am not an expert. I have never and will never argue with you, or freshgeardude, about the facts and history of the issue. You win, you knowledgeable person you! However...

Knowledge is not intelligence. I do not need hsitorical or factual details to see the obvious. So when you knowledgeable people with all your history and facts decide to end the bloody merry-go-round of meaningless debate and decide to join the intelligent among us, let us know. Because once you nutcases STFU with your (extremely knowledgeable) religion-like certainty, some of the problems might actually get solved.

I know you have invested too much into this issue to change. Lost people like you on both sides of this conflict are the problem. My hope is that others eventually drown you extremists out, free themselves from the past, and seek solutions based on the NOW. I do believe it will happen eventually...

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
What compels you to willfully misrepresent what people say in regard to this issue? cwjerome has not been "cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine".

Cwjerome suggested freshgeardude's recount of history was correct, when it has flagrant errors. That is cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine, whether you ever care to admit as much or not.

Furthermore Plan Dalet included depopulating and outright destroying hundreds of Arab villages all across both sides of the UN partition plan, both the details that plan as well as it's execution are well documented. the fact that it was called a "defence plan" is nothing more than a semantic argument. In practice Plan Dalet was an ethnic cleansing carried out on hundreds of thousands of civilians by means of overwhelming military force and outright terrorism.

I think you missed my point, sparky. I say you are all correct because I don't give a shit and I'm not going to argue with you people about the facts of history.

YJDGI (you just don't get it)

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
How is the conflict going to be resolved peacefully by the UN.

It's rather complicated, but I assure you all the nations of the world who vote to do so every year for decades understand how to accomplish that goal. I can't expect you to understand though, as you are obviously intent on Israel continuing it's conquest over what little of Palestine is left.

At least all Hamas demands is for Israel to accept Palestinians rights as the UN affirms them constantly. You on the other hand promote this senseless violence out of an insistence on denying Palestinians those right, with callous disregard to the death and destruction Israel's ongoing conquest brings to both sides. You are worse than Hamas.

Hamas also refuses to accept Israel's rights as the UN affirmed.

The Palestinians have a choice in which direction thay wish to proceed.
Israel is waiting for that choice to be made.

Israel has the right to defend itself from an enemy that attacks it. the scale does not matter; as Israel has shown tolerance, Hamas & the other militants have taken advantage of such tolerance.

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
What compels you to willfully misrepresent what people say in regard to this issue? cwjerome has not been "cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine".

Cwjerome suggested freshgeardude's recount of history was correct, when it has flagrant errors. That is cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine, whether you ever care to admit as much or not.

Furthermore Plan Dalet included depopulating and outright destroying hundreds of Arab villages all across both sides of the UN partition plan, both the details that plan as well as it's execution are well documented. the fact that it was called a "defence plan" is nothing more than a semantic argument. In practice Plan Dalet was an ethnic cleansing carried out on hundreds of thousands of civilians by means of overwhelming military force and outright terrorism.

The plan was there in case it was needed. And given the fact the Arabs attacked, it was needed to protect Israel. sympathizers to the Arabs armies were a threat to Israel. You remove threats in time of war.

Those removed were not cast into the sea, unlike the original intent of the Arabs.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
If they wanted to crack down over the 6 months of the "truce" they could have. It was not politically feasible to do so.

As I said, they tried, for example:

http://www.reuters.com/article...Crisis/idUSL103182282v

But Israel kept thier embaro tight in violation of the truce anyway, what more from Hamas can you rightly expect?

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: RichardE
Why we will never have peace as long as muslim extremism exists..

Sure, there is no reason to accept that even pretty young girls can be driven to the insanity of committing terrorism though being stripped of their their civil rights and their homeland by overwhelming military superiority, at least not when you can blame it on their religion. :disgust:

I knew you would justify terrorist acts like you have been for months. You are disgusting in your justifications, luckily your pacifist views of tolerance to this enemy is a dying breed of views.

I make no attempts to justify terrorist attacks.

I simply pointed out the obvious reality of tyranny that inspires terrorism, in response to your ignorant attempt to blame religion.

Why do you incessantly attempt to justify such tyranny?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
What compels you to willfully misrepresent what people say in regard to this issue? cwjerome has not been "cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine".

Cwjerome suggested freshgeardude recount of history was correct, when it has flagrant errors. That is cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine, whether you ever care to admit as much or not.

You are clearly deranged.

Furthermore Plan Dalet included depopulating and outright destroying hundreds of Arab villages all across both sides of the UN partition plan, both the details that plan as well as it's execution are well documented. the fact that it was called a "defence plan" is nothing more than a semantic argument. In practice Plan Dalet was nothing less than the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of civilians by means of overwhelming military force and outright terrorism.

Yeah. Israel should have done nothing when Arabs and many of their Palestinian compatriots were planning to attack. Why should they be allowed to defend themselves?

Seems that you're the one playing the semantics game because it IS well documented as a defense plan.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
If they wanted to crack down over the 6 months of the "truce" they could have. It was not politically feasible to do so.

As I said, they tried, for example:

http://www.reuters.com/article...Crisis/idUSL103182282v

But Israel kept their embargo tight in violation of the truce anyway, what more from Hamas can you rightly expect?

They tried when they publicly applauded the rockets being shot? <confused>

The truce was NO rockets, not limited rockets or rockets that were painted only one color.

Hamas knew what they agreed to and refused to honor it. Israel obeyed the terms of the truce. Embargo would be relaxed IF THERE WERE NO ATTACKS.

Israel did not launch any attacks into Gaza, unlike the Palestinians that did launch attacks into Israel. I am sure that there were Israeli soldiers and or civilians that could have broken the no attack section on Gaza but they did not. They were willing to stand behind their government and accept the consequences. That is the interaction of a civilian population, the military and the government. Trust that the government is doing the right thing for the people.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: cwjerome
You talk as if history matters at this point. All your posts dwell on history.

Please don't nag me for addressing the misrepresentations of history others present, and please don't claim they are right when you obviously have no interest in even understanding separating the facts from the fiction.

LOL... you. just. don't. get. it.

No you don't get me. Again, if you don't want to come to grips with the facts, I don't take any issue with that. However, if you want to deride me for choosing otherwise, then fuck off you willfully ignorant twit. Is that clear enough for you?

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
At least all Hamas demands is for Israel to accept Palestinians rights as the UN affirms them constantly. You on the other hand promote this senseless violence out of an insistence on denying Palestinians those right, with callous disregard to the death and destruction Israel's ongoing conquest brings to both sides. You are worse than Hamas.

Hamas also refuses to accept Israel's rights as the UN affirmed.

Of course they do, as they were born out of decades of Israel refusing to accept the rights of Palestinians. Shifting the onus onto them is just more chicanery.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Furthermore Plan Dalet included depopulating and outright destroying hundreds of Arab villages all across both sides of the UN partition plan, both the details that plan as well as it's execution are well documented. the fact that it was called a "defence plan" is nothing more than a semantic argument. In practice Plan Dalet was an ethnic cleansing carried out on hundreds of thousands of civilians by means of overwhelming military force and outright terrorism.

The plan was there in case it was needed. And given the fact the Arabs attacked, it was needed to protect Israel. sympathizers to the Arabs armies were a threat to Israel. You remove threats in time of war.

Those removed were not cast into the sea, unlike the original intent of the Arabs.

Again, the execution of Plan Dalet started months before the Arab armies attacked, yet you compulsively distort the timeline to suggest the contrary.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
If they wanted to crack down over the 6 months of the "truce" they could have. It was not politically feasible to do so.

As I said, they tried, for example:

http://www.reuters.com/article...Crisis/idUSL103182282v

But Israel kept thier embaro tight in violation of the truce anyway, what more from Hamas can you rightly expect?

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: RichardE
Why we will never have peace as long as muslim extremism exists..

Sure, there is no reason to accept that even pretty young girls can be driven to the insanity of committing terrorism though being stripped of their their civil rights and their homeland by overwhelming military superiority, at least not when you can blame it on their religion. :disgust:

I knew you would justify terrorist acts like you have been for months. You are disgusting in your justifications, luckily your pacifist views of tolerance to this enemy is a dying breed of views.

I make no attempts to justify terrorist attacks.

I simply pointed out the obvious reality of tyranny that inspires terrorism, in response to your ignorant attempt to blame religion.

Why do you incessantly attempt to justify such tyranny?

You do justify the attacks, you consider them valid as a response to Israels occupation. You don't mind if civilians die, as long as it is for your side.

 

[Lemon law]

As many pointed out, this latest Israeli occupation has accomplished little, its just the end of the latest chapter in a longer 60 year history. Except now, hope for a final and just peace is a little dimmer and the hatreds are a little deeper.

Those that search for justifications here will find only injustices on all side.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Hamas arrested the leader of that group and others. What more can you expect of them? They can't rightly stop anyone who might launch a rocket, just like our government can't rightly stop methamphetamine production.

LOL! :laugh:

Comparing rocket launches to drug production... classic!

Does that mean that the Palestinians are addicted to death?

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Of course they do, as they were born out of decades of Israel refusing to accept the rights of Palestinians. Shifting the onus onto them is just more chicanery.

You really don't get it, do you?! The "onus" is on both sides...

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: RichardE
You do justify the attacks, you consider them valid as a response to Israels occupation. You don't mind if civilians die, as long as it is for your side.

No, I don't consider the attacks a valid response to Israel's tyrannical conquest over Palestine, just like I don't consider Israel's tyrannical conquest over Palestine a valid response to the attacks.

I'm not the side for peaceful resolution between Israel and Palestine, but you obviously don't care how many Israelis or Palestinians die as Israel's conquest continues.

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As many pointed out, this latest Israeli occupation has accomplished little, its just the end of the latest chapter in a longer 60 year history.

Latest occupation? The occupation has been ongoing for decades, and isn't showing any sings of ever ending.

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Hamas arrested the leader of that group and others. What more can you expect of them? They can't rightly stop anyone who might launch a rocket, just like our government can't rightly stop methamphetamine production.

LOL! :laugh:

Comparing rocket launches to drug production... classic!

Because nether can reasonably be expected to be stopped by any authority, only limited. I suppose that is all way over your head though.

Originally posted by: palehorse
Does that mean that the Palestinians are addicted to death?

No more than methamphetamine production means Americans are addicted to death, neither is engaged in by but a fraction of the population.

Originally posted by: palehorse
You really don't get it, do you?! The "onus" is on both sides...

That doesn't make any more sense than saying that if a full grown man was raping a small child then the onus is on both sides to stop. Do you not even comprehend the vast military superiority Israel holds over Palestinians, or are you just so much of a psyocpath that you enjoy watching a small child be rapped?

 

[ZzZGuy]

I'm just getting sick of hearing about this conflict, I used to think the jews had a right to their own country and I still do BUT I now think it should have been in somewhere like Africa. Some place with no real country, large amounts of unused land, no excessive religious or cultural conflict (arabs are bat s*** crazy IMHO) and a native population that can co-exist (this is the important point for both sides) with the immigrating jews be it living with them in towns and cities or clinging to their traditional way of life like tribes do today. History has proven that the jews are a target for hatred and have little power to protect themselves without a country to call their own, even though I consider all organized religion to be complete and total BS I don't think their right to believe it should be taken away, and a argument that they should give up practicing their religion would be hypocritical unless every other religion is given up as well.

I reject their religious and historical claims to the area that was Israel ~2000 years ago. The religious part is explained above. For the historical part it is insane to go and claim what your ancestors had hundreds and epically thousands of years ago, for the jews to claim the land they call Israel means native north americans should be given back all of North America and South America, all immigrants should go back to Europe. You could probably also make a case for reinstating slavery (wouldn't apply to USA where everyone would be sent back to their "land" of origin). With all the conquest, blood shed, immigration, expulsions and genocide done in the past there will never be peace if everyone decided to get revenge, right past wrongs or make things as they once where beyond living memory. What should be done is to right any current wrongs in whatever way works best, not make everything how it once was.

All this aside, I still support Israel bombing the crap out of terrorists as they have done and the expulsion of FUBAR settlers from Israel.

-edit- And before someone says there have been jews living in Israel for a freak'n long time, they can go and move to the new jewish country if the arabs get their panties in a bunch, they are awfully sensitive and have a bad sense of humor.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: RichardE
You do justify the attacks, you consider them valid as a response to Israels occupation. You don't mind if civilians die, as long as it is for your side.

No, I don't consider the attacks a valid response to Israel's tyrannical conquest over Palestine, just like I don't consider Israel's tyrannical conquest over Palestine a valid response to the attacks.

I'm not the side for peaceful resolution between Israel and Palestine, but you obviously don't care how many Israelis or Palestinians die as Israel's conquest continues.

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As many pointed out, this latest Israeli occupation has accomplished little, its just the end of the latest chapter in a longer 60 year history.

Latest occupation? The occupation has been ongoing for decades, and isn't showing any sings of ever ending.

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Hamas arrested the leader of that group and others. What more can you expect of them? They can't rightly stop anyone who might launch a rocket, just like our government can't rightly stop methamphetamine production.

LOL! :laugh:

Comparing rocket launches to drug production... classic!

Because nether can reasonably be expected to be stopped by any authority, only limited. I suppose that is all way over your head though.

Originally posted by: palehorse
Does that mean that the Palestinians are addicted to death?

No more than methamphetamine production means Americans are addicted to death, neither is engaged in by but a fraction of the population.

Originally posted by: palehorse
You really don't get it, do you?! The "onus" is on both sides...

That doesn't make any more sense than saying that if a full grown man was raping a small child then the onus is on both sides to stop. Do you not even comprehend the vast military superiority Israel holds over Palestinians, or are you just so much of a psyocpath that you enjoy watching a small child be rapped?

Your actions speak much louder than your empty words.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Hamas arrested the leader of that group and others. What more can you expect of them? They can't rightly stop anyone who might launch a rocket, just like our government can't rightly stop methamphetamine production.

LOL! :laugh:

Comparing rocket launches to drug production... classic!

Does that mean that the Palestinians are addicted to death?

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Of course they do, as they were born out of decades of Israel refusing to accept the rights of Palestinians. Shifting the onus onto them is just more chicanery.

You really don't get it, do you?! The "onus" is on both sides...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well palehorse has somewhat hit the nail on the head, the onus is on both sides, the problem precisely is that Israel does not intend to give anything up as it grabs more and more. If Palestinians do not fight back , they get nothing but slowly pushed out as Israeli settlers expand into their turf in the West Bank, if they do fight back, at least they do not get more land settled on, even though Israel starts to engage in an orgy of collective punishment.

And from the Palestinian standpoint, Israel's self defense argument is bogus, we would not favor the self defense rights of better armed bank robbers keeping the police away as the bank robbers retained all their stolen money and land.

The other mistake we some what make is that much of the popularity of Hamas and Hezbollah comes from having a social wing that does concern itself solely with the social needs of its people, and that social wing does a better job than the the longer Fatah record of becoming corrupt and its leaders enriching themselves. But the larger world sure does focus on the military wings of Hezbollah and Hamas.

As has been pointed out, some 2 billion dollars of aid have been promised by other Arab States to repair the damages to Gaza.

 

[cwjerome]

There are really only three possible outcomes:
1) status quo, continued conflict
2) one side wipes out the other
3) peace and progress

Those who think #3 can be achieved by continuing to place blame and go into maddening details over "facts" and history are deluded and taking the easy way out. These people who blindly engage in their petty academic debate while blood and suffering prevail are the main reason we are stuck with #1.

My argument I tried to present here is simple... drop everything you think you know and start from today. If all sides were to come in clean-slate and focus on setting goals and solutions without regard to blame, history, or revenge, then real progress can occur. It's the hard road, but like with so many things, the hard route is worth it.

How anyone can still think that things will get better by incessant back and forth bickering over who is right and wrong is beyond me. You really think each side will sway the other? lol? Stubborn fools... let it go

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
There are really only three possible outcomes:
1) status quo, continued conflict
2) one side wipes out the other
3) peace and progress

Those who think #3 can be achieved by continuing to place blame and go into maddening details over "facts" and history are deluded and taking the easy way out. These people who blindly engage in their petty academic debate while blood and suffering prevail are the main reason we are stuck with #1.

My argument I tried to present here is simple... drop everything you think you know and start from today. If all sides were to come in clean-slate and focus on setting goals and solutions without regard to blame, history, or revenge, then real progress can occur. It's the hard road, but like with so many things, the hard route is worth it.

How anyone can still think that things will get better by incessant back and forth bickering over who is right and wrong is beyond me. You really think each side will sway the other? lol? Stubborn fools... let it go

It's not that I disagree specifically with wanting to move forward, but it seems really unwise to just forget the past.. Like the saying goes, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: cwjerome
There are really only three possible outcomes:
1) status quo, continued conflict
2) one side wipes out the other
3) peace and progress

Those who think #3 can be achieved by continuing to place blame and go into maddening details over "facts" and history are deluded and taking the easy way out. These people who blindly engage in their petty academic debate while blood and suffering prevail are the main reason we are stuck with #1.

My argument I tried to present here is simple... drop everything you think you know and start from today. If all sides were to come in clean-slate and focus on setting goals and solutions without regard to blame, history, or revenge, then real progress can occur. It's the hard road, but like with so many things, the hard route is worth it.

How anyone can still think that things will get better by incessant back and forth bickering over who is right and wrong is beyond me. You really think each side will sway the other? lol? Stubborn fools... let it go

It's not that I disagree specifically with wanting to move forward, but it seems really unwise to just forget the past.. Like the saying goes, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

That might be true if the arabs still where not calling for the destruction of Israel, even with Egypt and Jordan the people still want Israel destroyed even if their government pursues peace. Not much hidden hatred that might blow up in their face.

Taking that into consideration Israel will not agree to anything that will allow them to be back stabbed seriously down the road.

Realistically, Israel gives both fertile land and water sources that meet the palis needs without compensation, then trades (fairly) some of their land to keep various settlements as well. Palis stop demanding right of return, because the terrorists among them will have a field day killing jews if let into Israel and force them all to be kicked out again, stop obsessing over old borders and elect sane non "extremist religious" groups to power. Borders are set, settlers are told to F. off, palis stop out terrorists, Israel no longer has anything to do with supporting the palis (once various facilities are setup in Palestine such as power generation, and/or pays Israel for such services), Israel has no control over Gaza/Egypt/Sea borders allowing for unrestricted trade. End result for it to work would be Israel no longer has the palis by the throat and the palis stop attacking Israel.

So kick both sides in the balls until they cry, and keep doing it till they get their S. together. I have nothing more to say until this happens.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy
So kick both sides in the balls until they cry, and keep doing it till they get their S. together. I have nothing more to say until this happens.

I'm down with that. :laugh:

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: cwjerome
There are really only three possible outcomes:
1) status quo, continued conflict
2) one side wipes out the other
3) peace and progress

Those who think #3 can be achieved by continuing to place blame and go into maddening details over "facts" and history are deluded and taking the easy way out. These people who blindly engage in their petty academic debate while blood and suffering prevail are the main reason we are stuck with #1.

My argument I tried to present here is simple... drop everything you think you know and start from today. If all sides were to come in clean-slate and focus on setting goals and solutions without regard to blame, history, or revenge, then real progress can occur. It's the hard road, but like with so many things, the hard route is worth it.

How anyone can still think that things will get better by incessant back and forth bickering over who is right and wrong is beyond me. You really think each side will sway the other? lol? Stubborn fools... let it go

It's not that I disagree specifically with wanting to move forward, but it seems really unwise to just forget the past.. Like the saying goes, "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."

It is really weird but each situation is different, and this is a very particular situation to say the least. Basically, both sides need to say "screw it, we both did a lot of really dumbass things" and be willing to move on, water under the bridge style.

These little compromises over the years does not cancel out the hate, anger, need for revenge, and opinions of "justice" that each side has. Compromises couldn't stop the American Civil War and I don't think it's doing much here. Both sides are too ingrained... there's either going to be a big bang or just more of the same. Having the guts to swallow your pride and start clean is the only way I see real change.