Israel / Gaza Thread

[cwjerome]

This is all so silly... and pitiful. This is what it always boils down to, "My facts are correct" "you just need to read this, or watch that" "you haven't learned enough," etc etc

It's an endless, unwinnable cycle, talking about what happened 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 40 years ago, 80 years ago. Lots of very smart people have been arguing about this of decades yet where has it gotten us? Each side has its own facts, its own truths, its own history. It goes back and forth over and over and over again.

As Cesar the Dog Whisperer says, we have to live in the now. I would argue that we need to forget the history and "facts" and focus on reasoning that's based on the immediate present. To start completely and absolutely fresh from a reality based purely on what is happening at this exact moment in time. I realize this is nearly impossible for a lot of people... how can they sever the past from what's occurring now?

If people were to basically ignore what happened before January 2009 and look at the current situation we could find unfiltered solutions and works towards the two goals that must be achieved: An end to violence and the creation of a Palestinian state. If people are serious about ending the strife and bloodshed, they must be willing to swallow their pride and forget about their concepts of fairness, revenge, and truth. If they can release all that then a pragmatic, reasonable solution can begin.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
I wasn't speaking about that book in particular. Myself and others have already shown you information that goes quite contrary to your assertions that "Does it even mention the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians displaced by Israeli military and terrorist organizations ransacking the landscape ..."

You cling to that particular bit of propaganda like a 9/11 conspiracy theorist claiming "Bush did it, Bush did it," except for you it's 'Israel did it, Israel did it.' I question whether you're even willing to look at inoformation that goes counter to what you already seem to firmly believe?

I've looked though what information you have actually presnted here, it is nothing I haven't seen long ago, and does nothing to contraditcy the weath of histocal docmentation found in the books I've recommended and others.

Sure it contradicts it. At least it goes directly against your incessant claims that this is all insigated by the Jews and Israels. Your failure to recognize that fact is yet further demonstration of your bias. You don't want to know, or patently ignore, anything that goes against what you believe you already claim as a fact, much of it standard Arab and Palestinian propaganda. You cite Plan D much like 9/11 conspiracy theorists bandy about Operation Northwoods. While Plan D was implemeted it was not, as you claim (which is aping PLO propagandists like Pappe and some of the other so called "new historians"), a plan to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Their is plenty of evidence to counter that fact, some of which has already been presented here. But you don't care. You put your head down and forge on, remaining oblivious to any and all, repeating the same old propaganda over and over.

Stay closed minded about it. Remain a mouthpiece for the Palestinian cause, because that's all you've shown yourself to be. I call "shens" on your claim to have really looked into the history of this conflict in detail. imo, you vastly overstate your knowledge on this issue. It's not knowledge that you have, it's indoctrination.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I checked this I checked that who did this who did that. Didn't not the jews take the land of Israel away from people who already lived there from the beginning . Did moses not take the people to the river Jordan . Did Israel take the promise land by force.

You argue about who did what . Its your argument that after 2,ooo years that Isreal had the right to take back there lands, Something that never happened befor. So after 2,000 years is Israel has that right . Ok I won't argue that . But if You go back 2000years . Why not go back even further and give the land back to who ever Israel took it from . Your logic is lacking.

If you truely believe your own words . Lets discuss native Americans. When we going to give back what we stole. You people are shameless.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
I checked this I checked that who did this who did that. Didn't not the jews take the land of Israel away from people who already lived there from the beginning . Did moses not take the people to the river Jordan . Did Israel take the promise land by force.

You argue about who did what . Its your argument that after 2,ooo years that Isreal had the right to take back there lands, Something that never happened befor. So after 2,000 years is Israel has that right . Ok I won't argue that . But if You go back 2000years . Why not go back even further and give the land back to who ever Israel took it from . Your logic is lacking.

If you truely believe your own words . Lets discuss native Americans. When we going to give back what we stole. You people are shameless.

actually, the land known as C'na'an was the land of the jewish people. Abraham had lived there, down a couple generations, there was a famine and all the jewish people there went to egypt. they ended up being enslaved for I believe around 200 to 400 years. other nations moved in.

Israel basically moved back in, asked for peace and made peace with some, others wanted to fight

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
This is all so silly... and pitiful. This is what it always boils down to, "My facts are correct" "you just need to read this, or watch that" "you haven't learned enough," etc etc

It's an endless, unwinnable cycle, talking about what happened 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 40 years ago, 80 years ago. Lots of very smart people have been arguing about this of decades yet where has it gotten us? Each side has its own facts, its own truths, its own history. It goes back and forth over and over and over again.

It is a winnable, if only you can allow learning to shape your opinion rather deferring to others opinions and dismissing whatever realities conflict with that allegiance. The vast majority of the nations of the world has done as much, and votes accordingly at the UN for a peaceful resolution to the conflict, every year for decades. Yet propaganda is strong in the US and Israel, and many people are filled with 1001 excuses and misrepresentations which are abused to vindicate Israel's conquest over what little is left of Palestine.

Originally posted by: cwjerome
As Cesar the Dog Whisperer says, we have to live in the now. I would argue that we need to forget the history and "facts" and focus on reasoning that's based on the immediate present. To start completely and absolutely fresh from a reality based purely on what is happening at this exact moment in time. I realize this is nearly impossible for a lot of people... how can they sever the past from what's occurring now?

If people were to basically ignore what happened before January 2009 and look at the current situation we could find unfiltered solutions and works towards the two goals that must be achieved: An end to violence and the creation of a Palestinian state. If people are serious about ending the strife and bloodshed, they must be willing to swallow their pride and forget about their concepts of fairness, revenge, and truth. If they can release all that then a pragmatic, reasonable solution can begin.

Israel really only has 3 solutions here, which I'll list along with the reasons Israeli leaders have avoided them for the past 42 years:

1) Accept Palestine's right to exist so Palestinians can finally have their own state.

* Those Israeli leaders and others want that land for Israel.

2) Offer Palestinians Israeli citizenship.

* Israel would no longer have their beloved ethnically-Jewish majority.

3) The Final Solution.

* Bad PR.

So, instead, Israeli just keeps Palestinians stateless, and defenceless from having their homeland colonized out from under them, kills off whoever fights back or gets in the way, and puts so much effort into their PR here in the US that people cheer this insanity on.

 

[cwjerome]

Snowman I have gone Buddha on the whole issue a long time ago. I say you are correct. I also say freshgeardude is correct. You are both correct. There.

Now can you people STFU and move on to get some real progress on the issue?

 

[EagleKeeper]

There is a fourth solution that most will prefer, but it requires comprimise and trust building.

Toss away the right to return and accept a gradual pull back from the West Bank.
Allow the Palestinian leaders that talk about peace then prove that they actually to by protecting Israel from the militant attacks.

No attacks for a set period of time, the Israel returns land to Palestinian control.

No excuses that it was group A that generated an attack and attempt to wash hands of responsibility.

During the "truce/peace" areas can be identifed for the next cycle. It may be that some settlements will be destroyed outright, some may be turned over to the Palestinians and some settlements may exist in an acceptable cooperation agreement. It worked in the most part in the early 1900s when the radicals did not have influence and both sies worked/lived together.

Rinse and repeat.

If the Palestinians are serious about peace for land, this will be their chance to show it. And also show responsibiity (unlike what Hamas did over the past year).

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Snowman I have gone Buddha on the whole issue a long time ago. I say you are correct. I also say freshgeardude is correct. You are both correct. There.

Now can you people STFU and move on to get some real progress on the issue?

Can you look a few pages back and see how freshgeardude is so delusional he argued that I was contradicting myself by saying 30% larger isn't nearly as big twice as large?

Seriously, I can't STFU about the history of the conflict when you insist on backing up people with such loose grips on reality, and there is no Buddha to be found in doing that. If you want to get past the history discussion here, then do some research yourself and help us out. Did you even watch the documentary I linked previously?

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
There is a fourth solution that most will prefer, but it requires comprimise and trust building.

Israeli was founded on stripping Palestinians of their homeland, and counting to do so while doing so while denying civil rights of millions of Palestinians results in ever increasing militants attacks. Yet you ask Palestinians to end those effecting attacks while Israel continues the conquest that causes them for decades on end. There is no solution in that, it is nothing more than the chicanery which has been used to perpetuate Israel's conquest over Palestine from the beginning.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Toss away the right to return and accept a gradual pull back from the West Bank.

You demand the millions of refugees Israel displaced simply forfeit their rights? Why not even suggest Israel arrange a reasonable offer of compensation, particularly considering the international community has offered to fund such an effort? This is absurd. You obviously have no interest in ending Israel's conquest over what little of Palestine is left, which explains the disingenuous "build trust" argument you made above.

 

[palehorse]

HYPOTHETICALLY:

There is also a fifth option -- albeit highly unlikely. That is, Israel could force-march every last Palestinian into Egypt, Syria, or elsewhere. Then, lock down the new borders and tell the Arab nations to handle their sacred brethren themselves.

Winner-take-all.

It's tough to launch rockets from Gaza when you're no longer in Gaza.

I'm just surprised that Israel hasn't attempted to do so already... If I were them, I would have orchestrated the deportation of every last Palestinian a long time ago! Their restraint is both admirable and foolish...

 

[cwjerome]

You just don't get it snowman. But you are not alone...

(Sometimes the people who have studied something a lot and think they know so much about it are often the most biased... so steeped in their "facts" and committed to their ideas that they are consumed, brainwashed by way of self-imposed dogma. They are committed... they have to be right, damn the consequences.)

You talk as if history matters at this point. All your posts dwell on history. My Palestinian loving friend, history is what keeps this conflict going.

I'm here to tell you that your facts and your truths and your history will NOT get you what you claim to desire. The question is, would you be willing to drop your precious worldview if doing so allowed REAL PEACE and PROGRESS to occur? I have my doubts...

Anybody can justify aggression by reference to the historical record... as both sides in this conflict do. There are almost no limit to the list of grievances one could come up with. If everybody rummaged around their historical attic for justifications, almost every country in Europe would be fighting every country over land grabs under ancient (and some not so ancient) dynasties. At some point you have to be able to forget the past and start new.

It doesn't matter if it happened 40 years ago or 1 year ago. It has become obvious to me (and a few others) that the best and quickest way to see change for the better is for both sides to drop it all, every fucking bit of it, and come together with a born-yesterday freshness and solve the problem purely in the present tense.

As long as you people cling to your versions of reality/history people will die, blood will spill, hatred will continue and despair will prevail. Get over yourselves.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
You just don't get it snowman. But you are not alone...

(Sometimes the people who have studied something a lot and think they know so much about it are often the most biased... so steeped in their "facts" and committed to their ideas that they are consumed, brainwashed by way of self-imposed dogma. They are committed... they have to be right, damn the consequences.)

You talk as if history matters at this point. All your posts dwell on history. My Palestinian loving friend, history is what keeps this conflict going.

I'm here to tell you that your facts and your truths and your history will NOT get you what you claim to desire. The question is, would you be willing to drop your precious worldview if doing so allowed REAL PEACE and PROGRESS to occur? I have my doubts...

Anybody can justify aggression by reference to the historical record... as both sides in this conflict do. There are almost no limit to the list of grievances one could come up with. If everybody rummaged around their historical attic for justifications, almost every country in Europe would be fighting every country over land grabs under ancient (and some not so ancient) dynasties. At some point you have to be able to forget the past and start new.

It doesn't matter if it happened 40 years ago or 1 year ago. It has become obvious to me (and a few others) that the best and quickest way to see change for the better is for both sides to drop it all, every fucking bit of it, and come together with a born-yesterday freshness and solve the problem purely in the present tense.

As long as you people cling to your versions of reality/history people will die, blood will spill, hatred will continue and despair will prevail. Get over yourselves.

damn... well said.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse
HYPOTHETICALLY:

There is also a fifth option -- albeit highly unlikely. That is, Israel could force-march every last Palestinian into Egypt, Syria, or elsewhere. Then, lock down the new borders and tell the Arab nations to handle their sacred brethren themselves.

That is ethnic cleansing, aka option #3, the final solution.

Regardless, why would you suggest further violating the rights of millions of people simply to further Israel's conquest over Palestine? Do see some Greater Good in promoting such savagery?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
You just don't get it snowman. But you are not alone...

(Sometimes the people who have studied something a lot and think they know so much about it are often the most biased... so steeped in their "facts" and committed to their ideas that they are consumed, brainwashed by way of self-imposed dogma. They are committed... they have to be right, damn the consequences.)

You talk as if history matters at this point. All your posts dwell on history. My Palestinian loving friend, history is what keeps this conflict going.

I'm here to tell you that your facts and your truths and your history will NOT get you what you claim to desire. The question is, would you be willing to drop your precious worldview if doing so allowed REAL PEACE and PROGRESS to occur? I have my doubts...

Anybody can justify aggression by reference to the historical record... as both sides in this conflict do. There are almost no limit to the list of grievances one could come up with. If everybody rummaged around their historical attic for justifications, almost every country in Europe would be fighting every country over land grabs under ancient (and some not so ancient) dynasties. At some point you have to be able to forget the past and start new.

It doesn't matter if it happened 40 years ago or 1 year ago. It has become obvious to me (and a few others) that the best and quickest way to see change for the better is for both sides to drop it all, every fucking bit of it, and come together with a born-yesterday freshness and solve the problem purely in the present tense.

As long as you people cling to your versions of reality/history people will die, blood will spill, hatred will continue and despair will prevail. Get over yourselves.

Excellent post and very well said.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Israel is not going to trust the Palestinians. No truce has been COMPLETELY honored and few have even been attempted.

Land for peace will work, but the Palestinians have to demonstrate that they want and will work toward maintaining the peace.

Israel has the upper hand as has been demonstrated on all three borders.

There is the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules.

The Palestinians have no gold and no leverage. Hamas has wasted that leverage.
Israel is not going to care about the refugees - from their viewpoint that was caused by the Arab actions.

The refugees will be a Palestinian problem and/or an Arab problem (see Option #5 above).

If the Palestinians want a solution ("just" depends on which fence you stand on), they are going to have to work it (initially) on Israel's terms or continue the cycle.

Is it that difficult to state that peace can be had by stopping the attacks.? Those that continue the attacks do not want peace at any price. They thrive on conflict and can not retain their influence without it.

Those that support a situation that asks Israel to expose itself again to attacks are living in a delusion.

A responsible government does what is felt best for its people. Letting the people be used as cannon fodder for a few egos is not responsible.

A couple of years ago, Hezbollah triggered an incident and did not expect that Israel would react as it did. The damage that was done to southern Lebanon was immense. And done because their leadership underestimated their opponent's reactions.

This year, it was Hamas that figured that they could continue the status quo. And they ignored Israel demand to stop; causing the people of Gaza to suffer.

Hamas needed to decide did they want to be a government or a militant group. They decided and the people received the result of such a decision.


Israel has now shown that it is not going to sit back and turn the other cheek. That apparently is the "Christian" method not the Jewish method.

Hopefully, Iran will just tone it down on their rhetoric; it could be dangerous.
One does not fool around with a pissed off tiger.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Israel is not going to trust the Palestinians. No truce has been COMPLETELY honored and few have even been attempted.

In June 2008, Hamas agreed to end rocket attacks for six months, and Israel agreed to ease the embargo they have enacted.

The rocket attacks completely ceased for a period of months, reported, with a handful of incidents; Hamas was making arrests of people for planning rocket attacks.

Israel reportedly did not keep their work whatsoever. The embargo remained fully in place.

Why didn't you tell the actual story?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
That is ethnic cleansing, aka option #3, the final solution.

Regardless, why would you suggest further violating the rights of millions of people simply to further Israel's conquest over Palestine? Do see some Greater Good in supporting such savagery?

Because, I don't believe either side will ever let go of their histories, hatreds, biases, and other ridiculous points of stubborn contention.

Second, what I hypothesized is not "the final solution." Eviction is not the same thing as extermination.

IMO, there are only two solutions:

1) start fresh, just as cwjerome so eloquently described above.

2) one side or the other must leave the area.

All other options lead to a neverending war between the two parties involved.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Israel is not going to trust the Palestinians. No truce has been COMPLETELY honored and few have even been attempted.

In June 2008, Hamas agreed to end rocket attacks for six months, and Israel agreed to ease the embargo they have enacted.

The rocket attacks completely ceased for a period of months, reported, with a handful of incidents; Hamas was making arrests of people for planning rocket attacks.

Israel reportedly did not keep their work whatsoever. The embargo remained fully in place.

Why didn't you tell the actual story?

Hamas publicly stated they would not interfere with those that were launching the rockets. This statement was made the day after the "truce" went into effect and rockets were launched. There were attacks all during the truce. Hamas stated it was not Hamas doing it. but they also said it was acceptable because of what Israel was doing on the West Bank.

Israel had stated the embargo would remain in effect w/ the exception of humanitarian supplies as long as the attacks continued. Israel kept it's word - the embargo stayed in effect.

Note during that time, Israel did not attack Gaza nor do anything about the tunnels that were being used to smuggle in weapons, not supplies.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Israel is not going to trust the Palestinians. No truce has been COMPLETELY honored and few have even been attempted.

In June 2008, Hamas agreed to end rocket attacks for six months, and Israel agreed to ease the embargo they have enacted.

The rocket attacks completely ceased for a period of months, reported, with a handful of incidents; Hamas was making arrests of people for planning rocket attacks.

Israel reportedly did not keep their work whatsoever. The embargo remained fully in place.

Why didn't you tell the actual story?

Why don't you?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WO.../gaza.truce/index.html

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Israel is not going to trust the Palestinians. No truce has been COMPLETELY honored and few have even been attempted.

In June 2008, Hamas agreed to end rocket attacks for six months, and Israel agreed to ease the embargo they have enacted.

The rocket attacks completely ceased for a period of months, reported, with a handful of incidents; Hamas was making arrests of people for planning rocket attacks.

Israel reportedly did not keep their work whatsoever. The embargo remained fully in place.

Why didn't you tell the actual story?

Why don't you?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WO.../gaza.truce/index.html

Around and around we go...

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
You talk as if history matters at this point. All your posts dwell on history.

Please don't nag me for addressing the misrepresentations of history others present, and please don't claim they are right when you obviously have no interest in even understanding separating the facts from the fiction.

Originally posted by: cwjerome
My Palestinian loving friend, history is what keeps this conflict going.

What keeps this conflict going is willful idiots like yourself, who assume you know exactly what is going on, but have little grasp on reality. I am equally concerned for Israelis and Palestinians, but you are obviously wrapped too tight in your own head to understand that from me, or the many Israelis who have taken the time to study the history and the ongoing realities of this conflict and agree with me.

Why do you hold such callous disregard for the masses who suffer on both sides of this conflict? What do you get out of cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Israel is not going to trust the Palestinians. No truce has been COMPLETELY honored and few have even been attempted.

In June 2008, Hamas agreed to end rocket attacks for six months, and Israel agreed to ease the embargo they have enacted.

The rocket attacks completely ceased for a period of months, reported, with a handful of incidents; Hamas was making arrests of people for planning rocket attacks.

Israel reportedly did not keep their work whatsoever. The embargo remained fully in place.

Why didn't you tell the actual story?

Why don't you?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WO.../gaza.truce/index.html

But, but - that is not Hamas, but another group

That is the excuse used by the Palestinians supporters back in June.
Or another excuse was that without the document (actual verbage) of the truce, who knows what was agreed to. Hamas statements and others did not mean squat without the actual words being made available.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: palehorse
Because, I don't believe either side will ever let go of their histories, hatreds, biases, and other ridiculous points of stubborn contention.

The vast majority of the nations of world believes this conflict can be resolved peacefully, and only US veto power holds the UN back from taking the steps to make that happen.

So, what makes you so sure you yourself here, do you have a rational argument to back your position?

Originally posted by: palehorse
Second, what I hypothesized is not "the final solution." Eviction is not the same thing as extermination.

It is not "the final solution" the Nazi's attempted, but the ethnic-cleansing you proposed is no less the extermination of a nation, and the goal is of robing "undesirable" people of their homeland is the same.

 

[RichardE]

Why we will never have peace as long as muslim extremism exists..

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
But, but - that is not Hamas, but another group

That is the excuse used by the Palestinians supporters back in June.
Or another excuse was that without the document (actual verbage) of the truce, who knows what was agreed to. Hamas statements and others did not mean squat without the actual words being made available.

Hamas arrested the leader of that group and others. What more can you expect of them? They can't rightly stop anyone who might launch a rocket, just like our government can't rightly stop methanfetimine production.

Do you not even realize how absurd your arguments are, or are you just making them anyway in the hopes others might not?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: cwjerome
You talk as if history matters at this point. All your posts dwell on history.

Please don't nag me for addressing the misrepresentations of history others present, and please don't claim they are right when you obviously have no interest in even understanding separating the facts from the fiction.

Originally posted by: cwjerome
My Palestinian loving friend, history is what keeps this conflict going.

What keeps this conflict going is willful idiots like yourself, who assume you know exactly what is going on, but have little grasp on reality. I am equally concerned for Israelis and Palestinians, but you are obviously wrapped too tight in your own head to understand that from me, or the many Israelis who have taken the time to study the history and the ongoing realities of this conflict and agree with me.

Why do you hold such callous disregard for the masses who suffer on both sides of this conflict? What do you get out of cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine?

What compels you to willfully misrepresent what people say in regard to this issue? cwjerome has not been "cheering on Israel's conquest over Palestine". Quite the contrary, he recognizes that both sides have there faults and are equally guilty, whereas you are completely one-sided.

And stow it about how much you claim to know about the history. Your responses in this thread have frequently demosntrated quite the contrary. I'd also like to quote something from a prominent historian that knows far more than just about anyone else concerning this conflict, since he's the primary source where Pappe, and many others that you pull your claims from, use as a base reference.

From the Irish Times, February 2008:

Madam, - Israel-haters are fond of citing - and more often, mis-citing - my work in support of their arguments. Let me offer some corrections.

The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible "in some bizarre way" (David Norris, January 31st) for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.

In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.

It is true, as Erskine Childers pointed out long ago, that there were no Arab radio broadcasts urging the Arabs to flee en masse; indeed, there were broadcasts by several Arab radio stations urging them to stay put. But, on the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to stay, to no avail.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was not a "racist crime" (David Landy, January 24th) but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing". Plan Dalet (Plan D), of March 10th, 1948 (it is open and available for all to read in the IDF Archive and in various publications), was the master plan of the Haganah - the Jewish military force that became the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) - to counter the expected pan-Arab assault on the emergent Jewish state. That's what it explicitly states and that's what it was. And the invasion of the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq duly occurred, on May 15th.

It is true that Plan D gave the regional commanders carte blanche to occupy and garrison or expel and destroy the Arab villages along and behind the front lines and the anticipated Arab armies' invasion routes. And it is also true that mid-way in the 1948 war the Israeli leaders decided to bar the return of the "refugees" (those "refugees" who had just assaulted the Jewish community), viewing them as a potential fifth column and threat to the Jewish state's existence. I for one cannot fault their fears or logic.

The demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies - much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two.

I would recommend that the likes of Norris and Landy read some history books and become acquainted with the facts, not recycle shopworn Arab propaganda. They might then learn, for example, that the "Palestine War" of 1948 (the "War of Independence," as Israelis call it) began in November 1947, not in May 1948. By May 14th close to 2,000 Israelis had died - of the 5,800 dead suffered by Israel in the whole war (ie almost 1 per cent of the Jewish population of Palestine/Israel, which was about 650,000). - Yours, etc,

Prof BENNY MORRIS, Li-On, Israel.

February 21, 2008

Perhaps you need to do more studying and get your facts straightened out instead of relying on biased, unadulterated bullshit to form your opinions?