kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
- 9,396
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I never suggested it is anywhere as simple as that.
You are still arguing from your abridged Israeli propaganda version of the history, and show little understanding of the current conditions of the conflict. Again, I highly doubt you'd disagree with me if you could bring yourself to do some research to expand your perspective. Here is a documentary that would be a good start, please take an hour and a half of your time to enlighten yourself:
http://video.google.com/videop...d=-2451908450811690589
That documentary is full of facts I doubt you are familiar with many of, and may not want to believe, but I assure you they are all easily verifiable with a little independent research.
The UN started on this 60 years ago, but US veto power has been exploited to prevent the economic sanction and divestment programs against Israel, which is what cut South Africa off from the resources necessary to continue the practice of apartheid. Again, the UN general assembly constantly votes to bring peaceful resolution to this conflict by an overwhelming majority, calling on those previous resolutions dating back 60 years. However, US veto power is abused to prevent the Security Counsel from taking the steps necessary to resolve this conflict, and it is our responsibility to change that.
I found Timothy McVeigh's group and other right-wing groups, including some who defend terrorism against abortion clinics.
The result is clear:
Muslims should set up programs to monitor and respond to the Christian-American terrorist threat. If you want to get on a plane wearng a cross, expect to be singled out.
I agree. But i also agree with the fact that US wants it's army to be present everywhere in the world in order to control things and countries. They are after the Arab oil i think. Also US made so many enemies around the world that it's scared the crap about being nuked in close future. Why do you think the anti-rocket shield is being implemented?
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
- 3
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Some article I read stated a very true thing: If Israel attacked Gaza, no-questions-asked after the first rocket was shot 8 years ago, it could establish a firm price for such actions from Hamas. After suffering this shit for 8 years, the world expects Israel to sit quietly while its enemies are attacking its civilians daily.
Israel is the only country in the world not allowed to actively defend itself from aggression.
So the only problem is that this operation came 8 years and few thousand rockets too late.
Now that a price for aggression HAS been established, how would the Hamas crew here react when Hamas gets back to firing rockets? If Israel is indeed insane as some people around the world think, surely Hamas wouldn't want to carry out further attacks, right?
Israel is the only country in the world not allowed to actively defend itself from aggression.
So the only problem is that this operation came 8 years and few thousand rockets too late.
Now that a price for aggression HAS been established, how would the Hamas crew here react when Hamas gets back to firing rockets? If Israel is indeed insane as some people around the world think, surely Hamas wouldn't want to carry out further attacks, right?
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
- 9,396
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If Israel had accepted Palestine's right to exist 42 years ago, there wouldn't have ever been any rockets.
Israel has not only been allowed to defend itself, but also to keep trying to beat Palestinians into subjugation while denying their rights and colonizing their homeland out from under them. It is only the latter the world takes issue with, but US diplomatic and economic power allows it to continue.
The problem with such wishful thinking is that you are only concerned with Israel's right to safety, and hold callous disregard for the rights of Palestinians. Doing such is akin to rapist believing that if only he beat his victim hard enough she will stop scratching back. That is insane, sheer psychopathy.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
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If Arab countries had recognized Israel's right to exist 62 years ago there wouldn't have been any rockets either.
Yes. Let's play the blame the US game while ignoring the fault of the original Arab instigators of this. The US didn't even side with Israel until later in the game and Israel defended itself quite well from Arab aggression previous to the US allying with them. Besides that, the US has been trying to bring resolution and peace to the region for years. Who continually prevents any peace from being implemented? Once again, it's certain Arab countries that have their own self-interests in mind and use the Palestinians as their own personal pawns to practice their anti-semitism.
You don't give two squats about Israel's right to exist and drone on about the Palestinians as if it's all one-sided and completely Israel's fault. There are two sides to the story yet you blindly omit one in complete favor of the other. Both sides need to admit their faults, sit down together, and come to a compromise. Israel has shown more willingness to come to such a compromise. Palestinians voted in a terrorist group to lead them, a group that will stand for nothing less than the complete and utter destruction of Israel. For most people, at least the ones who aren't blindly biased, it's easy to see where the real problem resides.
Freshgeardude
Diamond Member
- Jul 31, 2006
- 4,506
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So snowman I find it interesting you never commented on my long post before speaking and quoting about how the koran speaks against jews
And how different countries are how they are by their muslim/islamic population.
Nor did u reply about the 2 10ish minute videos I linked showing how hamas kill their own people because they sang during a wedding.
Your ignoring basic truth because you know it will further deplete your ignorant influence to others
And how different countries are how they are by their muslim/islamic population.
Nor did u reply about the 2 10ish minute videos I linked showing how hamas kill their own people because they sang during a wedding.
Your ignoring basic truth because you know it will further deplete your ignorant influence to others
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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The some what TLC assertion that " Israel has shown more willingness to come to such a compromise. " is only partially true. Sure Israel wants a compromise where they gets 99% of what it wants and the Palestinians only get 1%. The sticking point for Arifat was his absolute refusal to sign away 100% of the right to return, which concerns the gains Israel made 1948 onward until the 1967 war. And 100% of the gains Israel made in the 1967 & 1973 wars cannot be legitimately claimed by Israel at all, which includes all of Jerusalem. And as Israel colonizes more and more of those non legitimate post 67 war gains, it becomes almost impossible for Israel to give much of that back.
Its all and well and fine to talk about Israel's "right" to self defense against terrorists firing rockets from either Gaza or Lebanon in the recent past four years, but when the " good Palestinians " in the West Bank not firing rockets get no Israeli settlement offer at all despite an Annapolis peace conference that has been on going for nine months, the rational see what Israel is doing in terms of eagerly being a peace partner.
Especially when the peace conference could not proceed at all until Fatah agree to completely table the issue of ongoing Israeli settlement in the West Bank.
Its all and well and fine to talk about Israel's "right" to self defense against terrorists firing rockets from either Gaza or Lebanon in the recent past four years, but when the " good Palestinians " in the West Bank not firing rockets get no Israeli settlement offer at all despite an Annapolis peace conference that has been on going for nine months, the rational see what Israel is doing in terms of eagerly being a peace partner.
Especially when the peace conference could not proceed at all until Fatah agree to completely table the issue of ongoing Israeli settlement in the West Bank.
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
- 9,396
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How could Arab countries be reasonably expected to recognize Israel's right to exist after Israeli military and terrorists used overwhelming force to slaughter many Arabs and drive out hundreds of thousands more in the months prior to Israel declaring statehood?
If aliens were to come done from the sky and start colonizing Canada for themselves though such brutal means, would you just happily accept that resulting alien state's right to exist?
I realy wish you wouldn't.
I most certainly do care about Israel's right to exist, I just don't have any justification for Israel to contenue denying Palestine's right to exist. You obviously don't either, judging buy your incessant and hostile misrepresentation my position in your inane rants.
SamurAchzar
Platinum Member
- Feb 15, 2006
- 2,422
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LOL, you keep on doing that! You keep repeating their moral high ground to attack Israel, despite Israel's vastly superior military power. Even if they were fighting for a justified cause (and forming a Taliban section on Israel's border most definitely isn't) do you want Israel to restraint itself because they are right? That's idealistic, childish approach.
Forget agenda, right and wrong, justice and causes: focus on the poor Palestinians who'll be brutalized by Israel's insane reactions. Do you still encourage them to shoot rockets?
Do you oppose the Taliban? They are fighting noble causes, in their eyes, on their territory. They inflict very little damage outside of their territories, as they have no ballistic missiles and aircraft carrier (they're not AQ). They are not very different, if at all, than Hamas and Hizballah.
Do you support their cause?
Freshgeardude
Diamond Member
- Jul 31, 2006
- 4,506
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Israel has already offered 98% of the land back and on a different occasion 95% plus land in the negev for PEACE and the palestinians have declined. They don't want peace they don't want harmony, they want the destruction of israel.
Snowman tell me. Ill use your example. If you own 640 times of what I have in money and I take that<1% of that amount somehow, let's say investment, real case was a war, but later I offer it back after you didn't get anything out of it and started to threaten me and you even hired someone to beat me up and I offered it back but included some extras so there wouldn't be a fight between us and you denied it because you want all my money, does that make any sense?
Snowman tell me. Ill use your example. If you own 640 times of what I have in money and I take that<1% of that amount somehow, let's say investment, real case was a war, but later I offer it back after you didn't get anything out of it and started to threaten me and you even hired someone to beat me up and I offered it back but included some extras so there wouldn't be a fight between us and you denied it because you want all my money, does that make any sense?
- Oct 30, 2000
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Why are those gains not legit. They were taken during acts of war when Israel was attacked and then went on the offensive to repelk and defeat her attackers.
Does not Israel have a right to defend herself?
Where was the UN when the Arabs were on the offensive?
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
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Israel gets 99% of what it wants? Untrue. As recently as 2003, 76% of Israelis supported the land for peace proposition in the West Bank and I doubt that has changed significantly in 2009.
As far a a "Right of Return," there should be no such right. Despite what certain people in here might claim, the vast majority of Palestinians left their lands of their own accord. They were not forcibly removed. In many cases Israel pleaded for them to stay and issued public proclamations stating as such. The mayor of Haifa stood in the city and literally begged the fleeing Palestinians to remain. So Israel should return property that the Palestinians abandoned? The "Right of Return" is used as nothing more than a position of belligerence and untenability to ensure that no peace agreement can ever be reached. Israel should make reparations to those who can show that they were forcilby evicted from their lands. Other than that, the right of return is bogus.
Israel has shown its willingness to give back territory as well. They even forcibly uprooted their own citizens from settlements in an attempt to demonstrate good faith to the Palestinians. What did they get in return? Palestinians destroyed temples, houses, and businesses that Israelis left behind.
As far as Annapolis, the agreement was that Israel would halt further settlement of the West Bank IF the Palestinians confronted their terrorists and dismantled their infrastructures. Neither side met those objectives. That's not to mention that the perceived political weakness of both Olmert and Abbas didn't bode well for any successful agreement in the first place.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
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I think TLC was referring to the acceptance by Israelis in 1947 of the UN Partition plan which was not universally accepted by Jews nor without complaint, but it was ultimately found acceptable. It was almost universally rejected by Arab countries who had their say in the UN and lost the vote. Instead, they invaded the arab partition lands. Was Israel supposed to sit in the jaws of several enemy nations who publicly bragged of their intention to exterminate the jewish threat, only a few years after 2/3 of european jews had been systematically murdered by the nazis? Blame whoever you want, but in the "months prior to Israel declaring statehood" the violence and atrocities on both sides was due to the arab rejection of the 2 state solution proposed. Was the proposal plan perfect? Of course not, but there could have been imperfect peace instead of 60 years of war over every inch of land. If they could go back to 1947 and choose again, would the arab nations take the less than perfect proposed palestinian state in which they could have established a working country and lived in uneasy peace with Israel i.e. India/Pakistan, or would they prefer the 6 decades of hell they've endured since then?
In addition, the arab countries didn't cite Israeli's treatment of arabs as a reason for their refusal to accept the partition plan (how could they when atrocities were committed on both sides) so your asking "how could they accept Israel" because of such treatment is misleading. They rejected the plan because they didn't like the allocation of lands vs populations. They didn't think the jews deserved their own state (despite how many muslim countries existing?) They rejected a 2 state plan that could have led to peace or at least a chance at peace. They opted for war, and war is what they've had ever since.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
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Yes, the above is exactly what I was talking about, particularly the bolded part. The Arabs threw the Palestinians down the well long ago and their continued instransigence through the years is the primary reason we have the current situation.
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
- 9,396
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There was some violence and atrocities on both sides in the history of the conflict before the partion plan, but then there is the ethnic cleansing operation Israel carried out on across a couple hundred Palestinian villages across both sides of that partition plan, depopulating and outright destroying many localities, and displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians all before the Arab armies stepped in. Are you saying the Arab states voting against the UN partition plan for it's absurdly lopsided division against Palestinians justifies that ethnic cleansing operation, which the Arab nations allowed to go on for months before stepping in to stop it?
Furthermore, how do you justify currently keeping millions of Palestinians in Palestinian territory, many refuges from previous ethnic cleansing operations, Israel martial law as Israel has already colonized across 40% of the West Bank and shows no signs of stopping? You mention the what the Nazis did now had they just denied the civil rights of their "undesirables", kept them fenced back and walled into collections of ghettos, and killed off whoever lashed back along with whoever happened to be in the area instead of ever committing to the Finial Solution? Surely you wouldn't have excused them of that?
I will have you know right off the bat I am not going to use any video involving Alison Weir as a base for facts. She consistently portrays Israel in a completely negative light as a ruthless, brutal nation. This isn't a battle of good vs evil like she would make you believe in her work. Many consider her an anti-Semite.
With that, it would seem more like you refer to an abridged propaganda driven version of history if you are going to sit here and ignore the fact that from the first large movements of settlers back in the early 1900s (early means 1910-1930s time frame, not when the partition was formed) an atmosphere of hatred and bigotry against the Jews developed. As more and more came to the region, they were treated worse and worse. Arab Revolt ring a bell? Bottom line is they have simply never been accepted by the Arabs.
What violence exactly are you referring to? Where is your reference? Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, all openly against the Jews being there in the first place, attacked Israel the day after they declared independence. Israel was not in heavy conflict during the months prior to that, and they still only held the land afforded to them by the UN plan.
This is why both sides need to drop the past, start completely fresh, and move on. Both sides have their truths and their history and their hurt feelings. We can blame the US, blame Israel, blame the Arabs, blame Iran, blame the UN, blame the Palestinians, blame anyone and everyone... but the only purpose of the blame is to promote an impossible agenda and the only outcome of the blame is more hostility.
Get over it.
I have detected a slightly more willingness on Israel's part to move on. Ever the optimist, I think the Palestinians can do it, and even believe they will one day be able to bury the past to create a future worth living.
HOWEVER, this will never, ever happen with Hamas in power and/or control. I don't care how much you argue about history, justification, and blame... the simple pragmatic truth is nothing will be achieved with Hamas in power.
Freshgeardude
Diamond Member
- Jul 31, 2006
- 4,506
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- 76
if you read the history, you would have known that Jews bought the land they lived on and all the attacks on Jewish settlements were provoked by arabs.
Their elected government has dedicated themselves to the desctruction of Israel, and their current condition is a sad state that they apparently LOVE, and they will continue to be the victim/martyr for the entire arab world. it fills a majority of arabs with pride to see someone sticking it to Israel, however little it actually does.
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
- 9,396
- 0
- 0
If you selectively read history you'll see Jews bought a small portion of the land that was allocated to become Israel in the UN partition plan, and then you'll completely ignore the fact that Jews also ethnically cleansed much of the rest of that land and more from hundreds of thousands of Palestinians over a period of months prior to Arab nations sending their armies in to stop it.
Here freshgeardude, try reading some history that isn't propagandized to support Israel's conquest over what little is left of Palestine:
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-C...an-Pappe/dp/1851684670
Here freshgeardude, try reading some history that isn't propagandized to support Israel's conquest over what little is left of Palestine:
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-C...an-Pappe/dp/1851684670
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