theflyingpig
Banned
- Mar 9, 2008
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Annex them, and further ruin their economy. And send their youth to fight in our wars. Everyone knows this.
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
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Israel refuses to annex the Palestinian territories because that would add another 4 million Arabs to disrupt the ethnic nationalist nature of their state. Hence the herding Palestinians back like cattle while colonizing their homeland out from under them.
Well, since you put it that way... Who was on our West coast first, us or the Mexicans? My history may be a bit rusty, but I believe Mexico is the answer. After refusing to sell it to us, we just walked right in and basically told a financially war ridden country "What was your Texas, is now our Texas." A war kicks off, we get the south west, and here we are today with them still locked out.
So back to the original question: If Mexico started lobbing IDF our way on a daily basis, what would we do?
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
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So you think that is a good example to follow?
Well I don't recommend colonizing Mexico out from under existing population while using overwhelming military force to keep them herded back like cattle, as I'm sure that would only result in more rockets and worse.
Regardless, since that is what Israel is doing that now as it has been for the past four decades, what solution do you recommend?
My solution is for Israel to finally acknowledge Palestine's right to exist. Here is the solution in detail, as a letter to Obama from an Israeli who has been working to bring a just resolution to this conflict for decades:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/avnery
I'm not 100% up to speed on Israel, unfortunately, so correct me if I am wrong here. British and UN mandate the Arab and Jewish territories after WWI. Shortly thereafter, Israel declared independence. Neighboring Arab nations didn't like that idea so they attacked the newly formed Israel.
Over the years, Israel was victorious in battle. They captured the West Bank and other areas from Egypt and Syria during the 6-day war, and it's borders obviously grew slightly as a result. Israel still occupies some land it captured in the wars and they get attacked for it. Most Palestinians want to form two states, even though they cant even seem to form some sort of single governing body, and especially one that isn't viewed as a terrorist org.
I like Uri's letter, but I do not think it is realistic to believe the neighboring nations will recognize and accept Israel as a neighbor. To this day, Arab/Muslim (Iran) nations in the region refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to even be in the region at all.
Edit: I am missing the part where Israel refuses to acknowledge Palestine's right to exist. At what point did Israel come in and tell them get out? My limited knowledge of the conflict's history seems to show the opposite. Since the day Israel tried to become a state, Arab nations have refused to acknowledge it. Palestinian refugees obviously got the short end of the stick during the Arab-Israeli war. This is like a "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" situation.
As Snowman alluded to, we're not treating Mexico the way Israel treats the Palestenians. If we were, we'd need to deal with that, because they might well start sending rockets.
Of course we'd take action - but that doesn't mean that we'd be right to keep doing to the what Israel does to the Palestenians whether they launch rockets or not.
Let's make a better comparison. First, the US takes all Mexican land containing water, farming land, or resources. The Mexicans are pushed into heavily guarded small areas with little food, water, fuel or medicines.
Now if a small group of Mexican extremists would fire missiles across the border (too primitive to actually do damage), the US would respond by bombing major Mexican cities, and mostly hospitals and primary schools (to clearly show they are targetting the extremists), and then would call a cease-fire, would you be surprised that not only the small group of extremists wouldn't stop, but also more people would join them?
If you want to stop people from supporting Hamas killing their children (since there is no social security network their only way of getting looked after when old) is not the way to do it.
And stoppping the extremists on one side will not work either, as the Israeli settlers need to be stopped too. Otherwise they will just keep on taking Palestinian property and killing Palestinians, thus creating new 'extremists'.
Well, for this comparison to be clear I am interested in how you define the land gain as "taking" it. Israel was attacked, won the war, and kept the land they captured. At the time, it was land held by Syria and Egypt.
They did not just move on over there and take it because they like it, or because they disliked the Palestinians. They did not kick the Palestinians out because they dont feel they belong there. The people in those areas left during the war.
Freshgeardude
Diamond Member
- Jul 31, 2006
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I could calculate it but im sure I am right. it doesnt matter if I was right or if you were right. you are continuing to give contradicting information.
It is 2 times the size of the US, get your facts straight. and stop contradicting yourself
fallout man
Golden Member
- Nov 20, 2007
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Hence, Palestine is an "occupied territory," and Israel has been squeezing out war crimes left and right by ignoring the nuances of how you treat "occupied territories." You know, that whole thing about collective punishment being illegal in the eyes of the international community...
It doesn't really matter how illegal it is when you're a UN member (with the most outstanding resolutions condemning your actions over decades) and your butt-buddy the United States consistently casts vetoes to prevent even the most gentle wrist-slap.
Also, I read on Jerusalem Post that the UN are terrist collaborators, and should be nuked. Case closed, I guess.
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
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There a a few small mistakes in your recount, and many relevant facts omitted. I don't mean to suggest the omissions were intentional on your part. Rathe you've simply been given the abridged version of the history which has been doctored to make Arabs look like heathens and Israel look like a saint
The reality is that there were many wrongs done on both sides. It's a long history with a lot of details that I can't rightly take the time to summarize here, but I assure you that if you do some research on the subject you'll find that your understanding has been deviously misguided. For example sake, take:
Before declaring independence, Israeli militias and terrorist organisations ransacked a couple hundred Arab localities across both sides of the UN partition plan, driving out hundreds of thousands of Palestinians before the Arab nations sent their armies in response.
I wouldn't be able to consider it realistic either if I shared your understanding of the conflict. However, please understand that I, and Uri far more so, know more about this conflict than you. I'd wager that the more you looked into the facts of this conflict, you'd agree with us, as much of the world does. What Uri explains is basically what the vast majority of the world has been calling for over decades now, and only US veto power in the UN stops the world from taking the steps to bring such a just resolution to this conflict, much as was done to end apartheid in South Africa.
Put simply, many Israeli were denying Palestine's right to exist since before Israel existed. Palestinian have been driven out a few times durring various wars and such, and the millions are kept under overwhelming military force, defenceless to stop Israel from colonizing across much of what little of Palestine is left. That colonization came first, Palestinian never asked to have their homeland colonized out from under them.
Now, 2.5 million live under occupation in the West Bank as Israel has colonized across it with Israeli only settlements and roads, while Palestinian movement is restricted to a series of enclaves divided by hundreds of checkpoints and roadblocks to keep them pinned back as they are stripped of what little is left of their homeland. Then of course another 1.5 million are trapped in Gaza. That is the ongoing situation that keeps brewing hatred against Israel, and us though our governments support of that oppression.
Here is a recent map which shows the colonization of the West Bank, blue areas under full Israeli control, and areas of Israeli authorised limited autonomy in brown:
http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf
Great post, and thanks for filling in some blanks. I left this part in to comment:
It isn't so much my understanding of the conflict that makes me feel that way as it is the open, blatant words and actions of nations in the region. If Israel had never stepped foot outside it's original borders, and Palestinians were never forced to become refugees, I still believe the neighboring Arab nations would continue refusing to acknowledge or accept the right of the Jewish to be there amongst them.
I believe they would still be attacked by Hezbollah, PLO, Fedayeen, etc just because they are there and I also believe the Arab-Israeli war, six-day war, etc would still have taken place. The Arab League was against creating the territory from that start, and, come on, Israel was invaded by 5 Arab nations the day after it tried to declare independence. Do you really believe anything done at the UN is going to change that?
It isn't so much my understanding of the conflict that makes me feel that way as it is the open, blatant words and actions of nations in the region. If Israel had never stepped foot outside it's original borders, and Palestinians were never forced to become refugees, I still believe the neighboring Arab nations would continue refusing to acknowledge or accept the right of the Jewish to be there amongst them.
I believe they would still be attacked by Hezbollah, PLO, Fedayeen, etc just because they are there and I also believe the Arab-Israeli war, six-day war, etc would still have taken place. The Arab League was against creating the territory from that start, and, come on, Israel was invaded by 5 Arab nations the day after it tried to declare independence. Do you really believe anything done at the UN is going to change that?
kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
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It is your lack of understanding of this conflict that leaves you unable to understand the reality which drives those words and actions, so instead you are left with feelings on the subject. Again, you have the abridged Israeli propaganda version of the history, so of course you can't believe Arabs would be anything but heathens or Israel little less than saints.
However, if you could bring yourself to actually research the history as well as the current realities of the conflict, I highly doubt you would disagree with me, Uri, or the nations of the world. Outside the US and Israel nearly all agree on the solution to this conflict, but our US veto power in the UN is abused and our masses are mislead to keep perpetuating it.
Did you miss the part about Israeli militias and terrorists driving out hundreds of thousands of Arabs in the months before declaring independence, and before those Arab nations attacked? And do you understand what I mean by when I refer to how the UN brought the end to apartheid in South Africa?
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which only works with people too dumb to think for themselves and cross check facts.
Sadly in any population such people often form a majority that is too easily manipulated.
So it is your feeling that condemning Israel and/or bringing sanctions against the nation will suddenly put a stop to attacks from either side, make Arabs accept the Jewish people into their region after 100 years of disliking the idea, and finally end this conflict?
Didn't Arabs start attacking Jewish settlers within days of the UN splitting the region? How about long before that, when Jewish ran from Europe to get away from Nazis. Weren't the Jewish treated like crap back then too? I supposed they came down and started attacking Arabs back then too right?
Listen, I am not by any means trying to say Israelis are saints and Arabs are heathens. I have no real bias here. I know Israel has done plenty bad in the whole conflict. You simply can not sit there and ignore, however, the fact from day 1, the Jewish were not welcome there and that lack of acceptance was not brought about by violence on their part. The point is the Arabs fought against the idea of Jewish moving into that area in from the early 1900s, through the 1940s when the region was split, and still do today. So many people want to point the finger at Israel and say they are the only bad guys here. Certain events led Israel to be in the position they are right now, and both sides have played their part in preventing peace in that area.
The UN played a part in helping end Apartheid in South Africa with sanctions (finally, after about 40 years of lame duck phoney attempts), but I am not sure what would lead anyone to say "the U.N. brought the end apartheid in South Africa."
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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In terms of Israeli terrorism prior to the formation of the State of Israel, I found an interesting google link.
http://www.geocities.com/alaba...ionist_background.html
But Russian jews had been coming into Palestine before the turn of the 20'th century at the urgings of Saul Hertsog. And by in large those lived in harmony with the indigenous populations. But sadly, too many of early Israeli leaders early on, had but one goal, to push all non-jews out. And too many on the Muslim side, had but one goal, to push all jews out.
Lost in the shuffle is the idea that both can live in harmony. Leaving us prisoners of the past when this is the only workable idea.
http://www.geocities.com/alaba...ionist_background.html
But Russian jews had been coming into Palestine before the turn of the 20'th century at the urgings of Saul Hertsog. And by in large those lived in harmony with the indigenous populations. But sadly, too many of early Israeli leaders early on, had but one goal, to push all non-jews out. And too many on the Muslim side, had but one goal, to push all jews out.
Lost in the shuffle is the idea that both can live in harmony. Leaving us prisoners of the past when this is the only workable idea.
Ozoned
Diamond Member
- Mar 22, 2004
- 5,578
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I totaly agree with everything TheSnowman says.
On the other hand, when i did some economy research few years back i came to the conclusion that from 1830 till 1939, there were 0,5% companies that were owned by jews and were positioned in the industrial sector. The rest 99,5% of jewish companies were trading companies. While the Germans were most advance industrial country in the world, the Jews held them back for years. My point is short so i will skip many other facts and say that jews are being hated by the rest of the world. And i am not surprised the Arab world hates them too. Ask them, the sure have many other reasons.
And i am asking a simple question: WHY is US supporting Israel??? WHY? Someone explain that. And don't bother giving me that "US fights for freedom" answer cause we know that's not true and never was.
On the other hand, when i did some economy research few years back i came to the conclusion that from 1830 till 1939, there were 0,5% companies that were owned by jews and were positioned in the industrial sector. The rest 99,5% of jewish companies were trading companies. While the Germans were most advance industrial country in the world, the Jews held them back for years. My point is short so i will skip many other facts and say that jews are being hated by the rest of the world. And i am not surprised the Arab world hates them too. Ask them, the sure have many other reasons.
And i am asking a simple question: WHY is US supporting Israel??? WHY? Someone explain that. And don't bother giving me that "US fights for freedom" answer cause we know that's not true and never was.
Because the Jews control the money, and with the money the puppet strings. They are in control of the US government.
http://www.mediamonitors.net/khodr49.html
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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IMHO, much of the early anti-sematism against jews is somewhat rooted, not in the jewish religion, but in both the religions of both Muslim and Christians. Historically a ruler of a Christian or Muslim country that desired to make war on their neighbors, didn't have the resources of a modern State to call on, but still had to raise a war chest of money to finance the war. And with an at the time prohibition against usury or the charging of interest in the Catholic world, and a still existent prohibition against usury in the Muslim religion, there was little incentive for private individuals to come forth with the funds. And raising general tax rates is and was unpopular and slow.
Hence the go to guys were the jews who could often go to their community and come up with the needed cash quick.
Of course the problem with debts is that they supposed to be repaid, and too many cynical borrowers decided they could drum up hatreds against the jews, drive them out, and thus avoid repaying. Rinse and repeat until it acquired the status of a big lie. Of course the rise of various protestant sects finally broke the Catholic monopoly and those protestant sects almost universally sanctioned usury, and soon Catholics and Protestants were cheerfully butchering anyone with a religion other than their own. Just at a time when a new world was discovered to plunder and the long distance sailing ship and the navigational sciences to guide them.
Enter the rise European colonialism and now we live at a time when that colonialism is being dismantled.
Bah I am sick to death about tales of a vast Jewish financial conspiracy, get a life, it does not exist, and is a tool used to manipulate prejudges. Hitler made a career out of it. Others like to demonize Muslims, play the religion card and your political career blossoms. Make sure you are picking on a minority, hatred is an effective tool.
Hence the go to guys were the jews who could often go to their community and come up with the needed cash quick.
Of course the problem with debts is that they supposed to be repaid, and too many cynical borrowers decided they could drum up hatreds against the jews, drive them out, and thus avoid repaying. Rinse and repeat until it acquired the status of a big lie. Of course the rise of various protestant sects finally broke the Catholic monopoly and those protestant sects almost universally sanctioned usury, and soon Catholics and Protestants were cheerfully butchering anyone with a religion other than their own. Just at a time when a new world was discovered to plunder and the long distance sailing ship and the navigational sciences to guide them.
Enter the rise European colonialism and now we live at a time when that colonialism is being dismantled.
Bah I am sick to death about tales of a vast Jewish financial conspiracy, get a life, it does not exist, and is a tool used to manipulate prejudges. Hitler made a career out of it. Others like to demonize Muslims, play the religion card and your political career blossoms. Make sure you are picking on a minority, hatred is an effective tool.
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