Israel / Gaza Thread

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: shrumpage
The only thing they have done is set a precedent of what will happen when/if Israel pulls out of the West Bank.

That is exactly what Israel leaders did, and it was a rouse to convince the masses to never withdraw the Israeli settlers in the West Bank. I made a thread about this a while back, which can be found here:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...262506&highlight_key=y

 

[wwswimming]

Originally posted by: ProfJohnIf you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?

the Palestinian people need a place to live other than a concentration camp.

i would take 1/2 of the Israeli military budget and build them a better home
than the one Israel stole in 1948. referring to the destruction of 400 Palestinian
villages during Israel's so-called "war of independence".

give them (the Palestinians) something to lose. right now they have nothing
to lose. & they're fighting a war because their land was stolen & they have
been shoehorned into a place that's a lot like a concentration camp.

give them back the land that was stolen, admit to some of the war crimes
(which would be difficult, because it was by "leadership" at some of these
times that Israel's leaders were selected, e.g. Ariel Sharon. Sharon led
a massacre very similar to the My Lai Massacre, except in the desert, not
the jungle.)

AND, for good measure, speak up for the Iraqi people, relative to the use
of Depleted Uranium. it's use has been measured as far away as England,
for sure Israeli citizens are breathing some of the same dust as American
soldiers in Iraq. that is, tell America to stop using DU (nuclear waste used
to make munitions, hundreds of tons of which have been dumped in Iraq,
Afghanistan, and the Balkans.)

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: wwswimming

Originally posted by: ProfJohnIf you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?

the Palestinian people need a place to live other than a concentration camp.

i would take 1/2 of the Israeli military budget and build them a better home
than the one Israel stole in 1948. referring to the destruction of 400 Palestinian
villages during Israel's so-called "war of independence".

give them (the Palestinians) something to lose. right now they have nothing
to lose. & they're fighting a war because their land was stolen & they have
been shoehorned into a place that's a lot like a concentration camp.

give them back the land that was stolen, admit to some of the war crimes
(which would be difficult, because it was by "leadership" at some of these
times that Israel's leaders were selected, e.g. Ariel Sharon. Sharon led
a massacre very similar to the My Lai Massacre, except in the desert, not
the jungle.)

AND, for good measure, speak up for the Iraqi people, relative to the use
of Depleted Uranium. it's use has been measured as far away as England,
for sure Israeli citizens are breathing some of the same dust as American
soldiers in Iraq. that is, tell America to stop using DU (nuclear waste used
to make munitions, hundreds of tons of which have been dumped in Iraq,
Afghanistan, and the Balkans.)

Did anybody make any sense out of what was just said??????

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
I can't say I am surprised Obama failed to acknowledge that the Palestinians' 'house' is being colonized by Israeli civilians under force of military occupation.

Not that it gives anyone the right to attack civilians, but acknowledging the root of the conflict is a necessary step in ending it.

The root is that the Arab nations (ex Jordan/Egypt) do not accept Israel.
Once they do, then the Terrorist sponsorship can be stopped and progress can be made.

Israel has defended herself against invasion, repelled the attackers and conquered land from the attackers.
She is now using the conquered land in her best interests, not the best interests of those that attacked her.

War for survival not about fighting one day, stopping for supper, walking home arm in arm with your opponent and starting back up the next day. Turning the other cheek does not work.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Did anybody make any sense out of what was just said??????

I did, some wishful thinking that is not piratical in the real world, a little of what actually needs to happen, some one sided history and he lost track of the topic at the end.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: wwswimming

Originally posted by: ProfJohnIf you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?

the Palestinian people need a place to live other than a concentration camp.

i would take 1/2 of the Israeli military budget and build them a better home
than the one Israel stole in 1948. referring to the destruction of 400 Palestinian
villages during Israel's so-called "war of independence".

give them (the Palestinians) something to lose. right now they have nothing
to lose. & they're fighting a war because their land was stolen & they have
been shoehorned into a place that's a lot like a concentration camp.

True to the Western tradition, you are patronizing over the Palestinians. They had a massive economic growth rate during the year of Oslo process. They could have a country right then, but they chose to continue the armed conflict (both Hamas and Fatah, led by Arafat).

Not everyone is motivated by money. They much rather have their respect and land back, the problem is the way to these goals comes at the expense of Israel's existence.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
They had a massive economic growth rate during the year of Oslo process.

And Israel had massive growth in colonization of the West Bank.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
They could have a country right then, but they chose to continue the armed conflict (both Hamas and Fatah, led by Arafat).

They chose to resume armed conflict in the Second Intifata because Israel showed no intention of ending their colonization of the West Bank.

 

[ahurtt]

We all know the only way any war ends is when one side wins. Let's end this shit now. Hamas will never surrender nor will they ever be able to destroy Isreal (their stated purpose for existence). They are a faction who's goal is destined to fail. Their fight is futile. They are poking the behemoth again and again to see how many pokes it will take before it utterly and completely devours them. Once they have made that final poke they will have their answer but at the price of their own complete and utter annihilation. Let's just get it over with. Enough of this shit already. When Hamas became an officially elected acting government body they became a legal target for open declaration of war did they not? Did the people realize this when they elected Hamas to power? How many more countless attacks must the Palestinian and Isreali people endure while this conflict drags on? The best way to rip the band-aid off a wound is quickly and suddenly so the sting is quick and then gone. The sooner the pain is behind you the sooner you begin the natural process of forgetting. Hamas should be routed once and for all, completely and utterly to the last man. The victor in the conflict should it ever come to this is already predestined. . .It is simply amazing to me that Isreal has stood for this as long as it has. But this is one conflict, far too deep and far too old, that I fear will never be resolved by words or treaties. There is too much blood on the hands of both sides for that. I fear one side must prevail before there can be peace. Stop averting the inevitable. Hamas wants Isreal gone. Great, well where do they expect all the people who live there to go? Do they expect the Isrealis to just kindly oblige their wishes and politely kill themselves? It just isn't gonna happen. Like the lines from the movie Gladiator:

Quintus: People should know when they are conquered.
Maximus: Would you, Quintus? Would I?

Hamas will not stop until they cease to be.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
They had a massive economic growth rate during the year of Oslo process.

And Israel had massive growth in colonization of the West Bank.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
They could have a country right then, but they chose to continue the armed conflict (both Hamas and Fatah, led by Arafat).

They chose to resume armed conflict in the Second Intifata because Israel showed no intention of ending their colonization of the West Bank.

So what did they get? Gaza is in ruins, hundreds of casualties, economic meltdown, poverty and no chance for a process. And the West Bank is still colonized. Ever heard the phrase "better wise than right"?

 

[wwswimming]

Let me explain.

Originally posted by: wwswimming

Originally posted by: ProfJohnIf you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?

the Palestinian people need a place to live other than a concentration camp.

The Palestinian people need a place to live other than a concentration camp.

i would take 1/2 of the Israeli military budget and build them a better home
than the one Israel stole in 1948.

the swords into plowshares thing. give them bunny suits & let them work the swing
shift at the Nehalem factory. dynamite proof bunny suits.

referring to the destruction of 400 Palestinian villages during Israel's so-called "war of independence".

the Palestinians had good homes. they lost them during a war started by Israel in 1948.
now they're pissed off.

some people deny that 400 Palestinian villages & the associated villagers were destroyed
& killed during Israel's "war of independence." (see Holocaust Denial, Israeli-style)

give them (the Palestinians) something to lose. right now they have nothing to lose.

basic human psychology. head over to the 19th Ave Bart Station in Oakland if you want
to meet some other people who have nothing to lose.

i'm not talking about welfare. the Palestinians made their living off the land, growing olives, without welfare - until that land was taken from them in 1948.

they want the land back, is my best guess.

side note - speaking of welfare, Israel receives about $2 billion of welfare from the US each year.

& they're fighting a war because their land was stolen & they have
been shoehorned into a place that's a lot like a concentration camp.

life in a concentration camp, circa 2009

http://www.kansascity.com/451/story/965616.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel

give them back the land that was stolen

quite self-explanatory but some people have trouble understanding it. this is
related to their judgment that Palestinian lives have no value.

admit to some of the war crimes

Israel has their own versions of the My Lai massacre, assaults by heavily armed
Israeli troops on Palestinian civilians.

which would be difficult, because it was by "leadership" at some of these
times that Israel's leaders were selected, e.g. Ariel Sharon. Sharon led
a massacre very similar to the My Lai Massacre, except in the desert, not
the jungle.

many of Israel's elected leaders are war criminals. as if the US troops who
were held up as "terrible criminals" after My Lai, went on to run for US President,
and won.

AND, for good measure, speak up for the Iraqi people, relative to the use
of Depleted Uranium. it's use has been measured as far away as England,
for sure Israeli citizens are breathing some of the same dust as American
soldiers in Iraq. that is, tell America to stop using DU (nuclear waste used
to make munitions, hundreds of tons of which have been dumped in Iraq,
Afghanistan, and the Balkans.)

side note. in addition to spreading democracy, America also spreads its nuclear
waste around the MidEast. the citizens of Israel get to breathe this. i'm suggesting
this is bad for their health.

for those who want to know more about the facts of Depleted Uranium
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=depleted+uranium

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

are these comments anti-Semitic ?

in the late '70's & early '80's, did being opposed to South African apartheid make a person
anti-white or anti-Christian ?

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: wwswimming

Originally posted by: ProfJohnIf you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?

the Palestinian people need a place to live other than a concentration camp.

i would take 1/2 of the Israeli military budget and build them a better home
than the one Israel stole in 1948. referring to the destruction of 400 Palestinian
villages during Israel's so-called "war of independence".

give them (the Palestinians) something to lose. right now they have nothing
to lose. & they're fighting a war because their land was stolen & they have
been shoehorned into a place that's a lot like a concentration camp.

True to the Western tradition, you are patronizing over the Palestinians. They had a massive economic growth rate during the year of Oslo process. They could have a country right then, but they chose to continue the armed conflict (both Hamas and Fatah, led by Arafat).

Not everyone is motivated by money. They much rather have their respect and land back, the problem is the way to these goals comes at the expense of Israel's existence.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, fairness to the Palestinians is not mutually exclusive with Israeli existence.
In fact its the one thing that will doom Israel. Even during the Oslo process, Israel
failed to go back to its parts of the wrongs of 1948, and nothing less than a right to
return will be acceptable.

Sooner or later, and by national intelligence estimates, terrorists will have chemical and biological weapons capacity likely sooner.

If a stateless terrorists attacks Israel from the seaward side, what can Israel do ?
Nuke the Mediterranean sea?

Lets get some insight here, both the Arabs and Israel got off on the wrong foot in 1948, but since then, Israel has hidden behind military superiority and set forth a parameter that they contribute nothing to the neighborhood while grabbing more and more land. And as a result Israel has done nothing but brutalize the weak while building the hatreds on all sides.

Sammy Sammy Sammy, are you and Israel so dumb as not to see that trend line can lead to nothing but making the long terms destruction of the State of Israel
inevitable. Have the lessons of 60 years taught you nothing?

Smart States try to defuse tensions with former enemies, dumb one do what Israel is now doing, gloating while killing civilians in fruitless reprisals.

 

[Turin39789]

End the occupation, remove settlers, create two states. Fin

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Turin39789
End the occupation, remove settlers, create two states. Fin

They want Jerusalem.

Its Holy tot hem

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Turin39789
End the occupation, remove settlers, create two states. Fin

Really?

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: wwswimming

Originally posted by: ProfJohnIf you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?

the Palestinian people need a place to live other than a concentration camp.

i would take 1/2 of the Israeli military budget and build them a better home
than the one Israel stole in 1948. referring to the destruction of 400 Palestinian
villages during Israel's so-called "war of independence".

give them (the Palestinians) something to lose. right now they have nothing
to lose. & they're fighting a war because their land was stolen & they have
been shoehorned into a place that's a lot like a concentration camp.

True to the Western tradition, you are patronizing over the Palestinians. They had a massive economic growth rate during the year of Oslo process. They could have a country right then, but they chose to continue the armed conflict (both Hamas and Fatah, led by Arafat).

Not everyone is motivated by money. They much rather have their respect and land back, the problem is the way to these goals comes at the expense of Israel's existence.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, fairness to the Palestinians is not mutually exclusive with Israeli existence.
In fact its the one thing that will doom Israel. Even during the Oslo process, Israel
failed to go back to its parts of the wrongs of 1948, and nothing less than a right to
return will be acceptable.

Sooner or later, and by national intelligence estimates, terrorists will have chemical and biological weapons capacity likely sooner.

If a stateless terrorists attacks Israel from the seaward side, what can Israel do ?
Nuke the Mediterranean sea?

Lets get some insight here, both the Arabs and Israel got off on the wrong foot in 1948, but since then, Israel has hidden behind military superiority and set forth a parameter that they contribute nothing to the neighborhood while grabbing more and more land. And as a result Israel has done nothing but brutalize the weak while building the hatreds on all sides.

Sammy Sammy Sammy, are you and Israel so dumb as not to see that trend line can lead to nothing but making the long terms destruction of the State of Israel
inevitable. Have the lessons of 60 years taught you nothing?

Smart States try to defuse tensions with former enemies, dumb one do what Israel is now doing, gloating while killing civilians in fruitless reprisals.

I don't know, it seems like Israel is better off now than ever. It is stronger financially, socially and militarily while the hostile countries around it either have peace agreements, or refrain from attacking it.

Your logic essentially claims that an ambitious terrorist organization fighting for an arbitrary cause is essentially unstoppable. Luckily that's just not true, or otherwise the world would be a very sad place to live in.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Turin39789
End the occupation, remove settlers, create two states. Fin

They want Jerusalem.

Its Holy tot hem

Share

 

[Lemon law]

Once again Sammy takes the wrong lesson by stating, " Your logic essentially claims that an ambitious terrorist organization fighting for an arbitrary cause is essentially unstoppable. Luckily that's just not true, or otherwise the world would be a very sad place to live in."

The lesson is that when the larger region agrees with the terrorists, then and only then does the terrorist victory become inevitable. When a process of normal negotiation and fairness happens, hatreds can be gradually defused, extremist hard liners are driven out of the process on both sides, and cooler moderates can drive the process on all sides. Net effect, the terrorists lose.

Instead, all sides are now creating exactly the opposite, and the hatreds Israel builds reduce even US and European support, while the terrorists are winning.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Turin39789
End the occupation, remove settlers, create two states. Fin

They want Jerusalem.

Its Holy tot hem

Share

Exactly. Jerusalem can be divided with a wall much like Berlin was. Not most esthetically pleasing solution, but it can be torn down once tensions cool with time as well. Israel has no legal claim to East Jerusalem and the Palestinians aren't going to be bullied into giving up their right to it no matter how long Israel perpetuates this madness. Hell, Israel already built the Wall, they just need to move it back to the border rather than trying to Anex Palestinian land with it.

Also note the settlers have to go before the occupation, not after, and not during like was done to leave the chaos in Gaza that has existed since then. First the settlers go, then the Palestinians can regain the hope of realizing their right to exist as an independent nation, then the attacks on Israel can be stopped, and then the occupation can finally end.

 

[shadow9d9]

Israel should never have been established in the first place. This is what happens when you invade foreign countries and colonize it. That would be bad enough, but they picked the holy land of the 2 most populous religions. They deserve it.

My whole family is Jewish. You don't need to support stupidity and arrogance because you are "one of them." This is why nonprof-jon won't understand.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Israel should never have been established in the first place. This is what happens when you invade foreign countries and colonize it. That would be bad enough, but they picked the holy land of the 2 most populous religions. They deserve it.

My whole family is Jewish. You don't need to support stupidity and arrogance because you are "one of them." This is why nonprof-jon won't understand.

The worst ones have your avatar. Probably a coincidence. Well, anyway, what do you suggest that's done now? Israel dismantled? How did YOU contribute to worldwide peace lately?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I know a lot of people on this board are not happy with Israeli's bombing or invasion of Gaza, but I have not seen a lot of people give alternatives to those actions.

So instead of focusing on who is dying or who was in the wrong 50+ years ago I would like to hear what those people think Israel should do.

If you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?

They should just create a two-state system like they've been blathering on about now forever. Just do it already and stop killing civilians and prolonging the pain.

 

[mxyzptlk]

A single, secular state. Call it Israelistine. Or maybe Palisreal.. whatever.

Key points being that it's not a jewish religious government and the Palestinians aren't to be second class citizens within it.

 

[gingermeggs]

I would remove nukes from the whole region, Israel included.

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Israel should never have been established in the first place. This is what happens when you invade foreign countries and colonize it. That would be bad enough, but they picked the holy land of the 2 most populous religions. They deserve it.

My whole family is Jewish. You don't need to support stupidity and arrogance because you are "one of them." This is why nonprof-jon won't understand.

The worst ones have your avatar.

Oh my. Where is Moonbeam when you need him to bring up self-hate?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I know a lot of people on this board are not happy with Israeli's bombing or invasion of Gaza, but I have not seen a lot of people give alternatives to those actions.

So instead of focusing on who is dying or who was in the wrong 50+ years ago I would like to hear what those people think Israel should do.

If you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?

They should just create a two-state system like they've been blathering on about now forever. Just do it already and stop killing civilians and prolonging the pain.

Ignoring the fact that a "Palestinian State" would be separated by the very presence of Israel (FYI: Gaza and the West Bank have some Israel in between them, duh), look at this map and tell me how a Palestinian state could exist in the West Bank with all that "Israel" INSIDE it.

http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

Read up the Allon Plan. Israel purposely colonized the Jordan River Valley to PREVENT the possibility of a Palestinian state. These are the words of Israeli politicians starting from 1968.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
A single, secular state. Call it Israelistine. Or maybe Palisreal.. whatever.

Key points being that it's not a jewish religious government and the Palestinians aren't to be second class citizens within it.

Impossible, as demographics would make that an Arab state in few years. Then the Jews won't budge and the world would yell "Apartheid".

Originally posted by: gingermeggs
I would remove nukes from the whole region, Israel included.

Hey, I'd remove nukes from everywhere, but if we can't do that, at least make sure the nukes are with the Israelis and not the Iranians.