Israel / Gaza Thread

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Israel should never have been established in the first place. This is what happens when you invade foreign countries and colonize it. That would be bad enough, but they picked the holy land of the 2 most populous religions. They deserve it.

My whole family is Jewish. You don't need to support stupidity and arrogance because you are "one of them." This is why nonprof-jon won't understand.

Note that not even most of the Israelis really support the ongoing colonization in the West Bank, they've just been conditioned to accept it by en extremist and resourceful minority which is helbent on that colonization. That peaceful Israeli majority doesn't deserve what is happening to them, and it is within our power to help them understand how to end this conflict.

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
They should just create a two-state system like they've been blathering on about now forever. Just do it already and stop killing civilians and prolonging the pain.

Do you realize Israel has been doing exactly the opposite for four decades now, colozising Palestian territory in all over the West Bank while showing no signs of stopping.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I know a lot of people on this board are not happy with Israeli's bombing or invasion of Gaza, but I have not seen a lot of people give alternatives to those actions.

So instead of focusing on who is dying or who was in the wrong 50+ years ago I would like to hear what those people think Israel should do.

If you were the leader of Israel what course of action would you take?

They should just create a two-state system like they've been blathering on about now forever. Just do it already and stop killing civilians and prolonging the pain.

Ignoring the fact that a "Palestinian State" would be separated by the very presence of Israel (FYI: Gaza and the West Bank have some Israel in between them, duh), look at this map and tell me how a Palestinian state could exist in the West Bank with all that "Israel" INSIDE it.

http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

Read up the Allon Plan. Israel purposely colonized the Jordan River Valley to PREVENT the possibility of a Palestinian state. These are the words of Israeli politicians starting from 1968.

Who cares about maps or stupid shit from 1968? A two-state solution is the only way to make everyone happy. Unless you have a better one?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Israel should never have been established in the first place. This is what happens when you invade foreign countries and colonize it. That would be bad enough, but they picked the holy land of the 2 most populous religions. They deserve it.

My whole family is Jewish. You don't need to support stupidity and arrogance because you are "one of them." This is why nonprof-jon won't understand.

Note that not even most of the Israelis really support the ongoing colonization in the West Bank, they've just been conditioned to accept it by en extremist and resourceful minority which is helbent on that colonization. That peaceful Israeli majority doesn't deserve what is happening to them, and it is within our power to help them understand how to end this conflict.

I'd be shocked if 10% of the Israelis are willing to let go on the West Bank after the party Hamas arranged in Gaza. No one is that stupid.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
A single, secular state. Call it Israelistine. Or maybe Palisreal.. whatever.

Key points being that it's not a jewish religious government and the Palestinians aren't to be second class citizens within it.

Impossible, as demographics would make that an Arab state in few years. Then the Jews won't budge and the world would yell "Apartheid".

What? Isn't that what they have now, apartheid? Could you explain what your second sentence means because I don't understand. What do you mean would make it an Arab state.. Just because there's more arab people than jewish? What's wrong with that? If there is a secular government, it's not as though the jews will be punished for not following islamic law, or vice-versa.

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of the Jerusalem issue, Israel was shut off that in the original UN 1948 mandate, and by the same UN mandate that created Israel, Israel must give the conquests in the 1967 war back. Fact, Jerusalem is holy to three religions and can be shared now, bottom line message throughout history, it can't be pigged by one side for long.

The same larger message exists for this conflict, Israel can share the holy land because times have changed since 1948, but Israel can't pig it all at the expense of everyone else.

Israel may be able to wipe out Hamas, but new and more radical groups will replace it, just as Israel has co opted Fatah, until some justice is restored, Israel will never know any peace, and in the end will lose all world support unless it
gets real.

I can not speak for Obama, but he may slowly start to with draw US support for Israel, if Obama does not, a future US President will.

A religious theocracy is never good, not for the Taliban, not for Iran, and its equally rotten in Israel.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Ignoring the fact that a "Palestinian State" would be separated by the very presence of Israel (FYI: Gaza and the West Bank have some Israel in between them, duh), look at this map and tell me how a Palestinian state could exist in the West Bank with all that "Israel" INSIDE it.

Much like West Berlin existed inside East Germany is the reasonable solution to that one. Granted, they can conceivably exist separated to if Israel insists, but think a land trade of a passageway in exchange for keeping the same amount of land in West Bank border settlements could be mutually agreeable, if only Israel were willing to acknowledge the Palestinians rights.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
A single, secular state. Call it Israelistine. Or maybe Palisreal.. whatever.

Key points being that it's not a jewish religious government and the Palestinians aren't to be second class citizens within it.

Impossible, as demographics would make that an Arab state in few years. Then the Jews won't budge and the world would yell "Apartheid".

What? Isn't that what they have now, apartheid? Could you explain what your second sentence means because I don't understand. What do you mean would make it an Arab state.. Just because there's more arab people than jewish? What's wrong with that? If there is a secular government, it's not as though the jews will be punished for not following islamic law, or vice-versa.

What's a "secular Arab state"?

 

[clamum]

Originally posted by: ahurtt
We all know the only way any war ends is when one side wins. Let's end this shit now. Hamas will never surrender nor will they ever be able to destroy Isreal (their stated purpose for existence). They are a faction who's goal is destined to fail. Their fight is futile. They are poking the behemoth again and again to see how many pokes it will take before it utterly and completely devours them. Once they have made that final poke they will have their answer but at the price of their own complete and utter annihilation. Let's just get it over with. Enough of this shit already. When Hamas became an officially elected acting government body they became a legal target for open declaration of war did they not? Did the people realize this when they elected Hamas to power? How many more countless attacks must the Palestinian and Isreali people endure while this conflict drags on? The best way to rip the band-aid off a wound is quickly and suddenly so the sting is quick and then gone. The sooner the pain is behind you the sooner you begin the natural process of forgetting. Hamas should be routed once and for all, completely and utterly to the last man. The victor in the conflict should it ever come to this is already predestined. . .It is simply amazing to me that Isreal has stood for this as long as it has. But this is one conflict, far too deep and far too old, that I fear will never be resolved by words or treaties. There is too much blood on the hands of both sides for that. I fear one side must prevail before there can be peace. Stop averting the inevitable. Hamas wants Isreal gone. Great, well where do they expect all the people who live there to go? Do they expect the Isrealis to just kindly oblige their wishes and politely kill themselves? It just isn't gonna happen. Like the lines from the movie Gladiator:

Quintus: People should know when they are conquered.
Maximus: Would you, Quintus? Would I?

Hamas will not stop until they cease to be.

Heh. Kind of sounds like my Dad when I'd discuss politics with him. As far as fighting (and winning) wars in general, I agree with you. I can't believe Israel has showed as much restraint as they have. Look back in history and see if other nations tried to avoid civilian casualties as much as Israel is trying to.

I don't know what the solution is, and if it was simple I think it would've been done by now. I think Israel needs to completely fucking destroy Hamas, and do it right. War is hell, fucking win it and get it over with. Then stop fucking settling in the West Bank, so perhaps there would be a chance for a two-state solution. I agree with mrsheik124 about the one state being a better outcome but I'm just not sure that's feasible.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

and in the end will lose all world support unless it
gets real.

It seems like there is far wider support from the world this time around. Even Canada blamed Hamas for this round.

I can not speak for Obama, but he may slowly start to with draw US support for Israel, if Obama does not, a future US President will.

I doubt Obama will touch Israel.

A religious theocracy is never good, not for the Taliban, not for Iran, and its equally rotten in Israel.

Do you feel the Taliban, Iran and Israel share the same values and beliefs? (It's like asking a kid with Down's syndrome to point out the odd object between two circles and a square)

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar


What's a "secular Arab state"?

You said it would become an Arab state somehow.

Just like there are checks and balances in place here in the US to protect the rights of minorities, I don't see why a jewish minority would be under any sort of inherent existential threat by an arab majority in a properly secular state.

What do you mean by an arab state? Whatever it is, it's not part of my suggestion.

 

[SamurAchzar]

An "Arab state" is a country predominately inhabited by Muslim Arabs.
Why do you think such a country would escape the fate of any other Arab country - and become a poor, illiterate, tribal, and violent dictatorship? What's the difference between this and Iraq?

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Lemon law


A religious theocracy is never good, not for the Taliban, not for Iran, and its equally rotten in Israel.

Do you feel the Taliban, Iran and Israel share the same values and beliefs? (It's like asking a kid with Down's syndrome to point out the odd object between two circles and a square)

The difference is that you, SamurAchzar, value one above the other two?

I have to admit that as an athiest, a theocracy is a theocracy is a theocracy...

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
An "Arab state" is a country predominately inhabited by Muslim Arabs.
Why do you think such a country would escape the fate of any other Arab country - and become a poor, illiterate, tribal, and violent dictatorship? What's the difference between this and Iraq?

Well I disagree that arabs, simply by virtue of being arab, are some how destined to illiteracy and violence. I'd consider that a bigoted opinion and I guess I really don't see the need to discuss the issue further with you.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
A religious theocracy is never good, not for the Taliban, not for Iran, and its equally rotten in Israel.

Israeli leaders aren't are any more religious than our own here in the US, arguably less so. Israel is a form of ethnic nationalist state, started by secular Jews who rejected tractional religious doctrine which held that Jews should live as a people amongst the nations of the world until God allows them to peacefully reassemble in the Holy Land. Granted, over the years many have developed religious arguments to the contrary, but much of the Israeli population as well as it's leadership is secular.

 

[Moonbeam]

The answer for Israel is easy. They have to grow up. They need to realize there is no such thing as being a Jew. There are only human beings on this earth and we are all the same. To be a Jew, or anything else is to make yourself into something that is small and does not exist. Israel needs to die to the notion of a Jewish state. Even among Jews there are a million kinds, secular, reformed, Orthodox. Jews are as insane as everybody else. Like everybody else, they think their identity makes them special. The Jew is a person who will not face his self hate, just like The AnyOtherRaceorReligion. It's all nothing but a delusion there to provide people who feel worthless with a name they can have pride in, pride conditioned by the mental illness of those around them, and false, like all pride. The Jews and the world will die because of pride. Pride is the external face of self hate and everybody is too afraid to face it. We will kill the world before we will feel how much we hate ourselves. The world you see is the world we create out of our self hate.

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
A single, secular state. Call it Israelistine. Or maybe Palisreal.. whatever.

Key points being that it's not a jewish religious government and the Palestinians aren't to be second class citizens within it.

Impossible, as demographics would make that an Arab state in few years. Then the Jews won't budge and the world would yell "Apartheid".

Originally posted by: gingermeggs
I would remove nukes from the whole region, Israel included.

Hey, I'd remove nukes from everywhere, but if we can't do that, at least make sure the nukes are with the Israelis and not the Iranians.

LOL, why, because the Israelis are our friends and the Iranians are not? Someone in Yemen may feel differently from that. Someone in Pakistan may feel differently from that.

So I guess it just depends on where you live and how you were brought up that determines your views. Or mostly anyway.

Also, America and Americans seem to feel we need to control the world. North Korea, Iran and Syria cannot have nukes but our friends in Israel can. The dictator Saddam needs to be removed from office but the previous dictator of Pakistan, Musharaff, is our friend. Just lovely.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Lemon law


A religious theocracy is never good, not for the Taliban, not for Iran, and its equally rotten in Israel.

Do you feel the Taliban, Iran and Israel share the same values and beliefs? (It's like asking a kid with Down's syndrome to point out the odd object between two circles and a square)

The difference is that you, SamurAchzar, value one above the other two?

I have to admit that as an athiest, a theocracy is a theocracy is a theocracy...

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
An "Arab state" is a country predominately inhabited by Muslim Arabs.
Why do you think such a country would escape the fate of any other Arab country - and become a poor, illiterate, tribal, and violent dictatorship? What's the difference between this and Iraq?

Well I disagree that arabs, simply by virtue of being arab, are some how destined to illiteracy and violence. I'd consider that a bigoted opinion and I guess I really don't see the need to discuss the issue further with you.

There's nothing to argue about even if you wanted. There isn't one secular, democratic Arab country. My view is only as bigoted as the reality. Next you'll probably claim it's the fault of the West, and that Arabs would have liked democratic countries, right? :roll:

Even in Iraq, where Iraqis got a revolution on a silver platter, paid for with blood of American soldiers and funded by American money, they still didn't know what to do with it, instead resorting to just killing each other. Hilarious.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124

End of ceasefire, no change in blockade -> some rockets -> incursions into Gaza -> more rockets -> Hamas now has no food, neither does the rest of Gaza, Hamas still has rockets -> more rockets. Rockets are made out of fertilizer, and have killed four people since mid-November. Israel killed a few hundred civilians in one week.

Not that I agree with Israel's recent actions, but if Hamas hardliners had softened their stance on the destruction of the Jewish state (coexistence of some sort?) I don't think things would've gotten out of hand. Remember both the EU and US had embargoes on Hamas.

Israel isn't going anywhere. From what I understand is that Palestinians got fed up with Fatah due to corruption and put Hamas in power instead. Understandable since we have 2 sh!tty party in this country.

I suppose Hamass values their goal more so than the lives of their own people, which is normal for a terrorist organization.

 

[SandEagle]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
A single, secular state. Call it Israelistine. Or maybe Palisreal.. whatever.

Key points being that it's not a jewish religious government and the Palestinians aren't to be second class citizens within it.

israel considers itself a jewish state. Can you imagine the uproar if the US was called a 'Catholic state', a 'Baptist state' or a 'Protestant state'?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
http://www.btselem.org/Downloa...on_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

Who cares about maps or stupid shit from 1968? A two-state solution is the only way to make everyone happy. Unless you have a better one?

A TRUE PROPONENT OF A TWO STATE SOLUTION! JESUS H. CHRIST, DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT THE AREA (both geographically and demographically) LOOKS LIKE?

Israeli settlements and exclusive settler use highways dot the West Bank, in between cities, around them, throughout the entire Jordan River Vally, Hebron is split into two administrative regions, H1 (Palestinian) H2 (IDF) and the list goes on and on. It's UNFEASIBLE to suggest a two state solution, it is physically impossible to somehow shoehorn an independent state in that mess. Ignoramus...

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Much like West Berlin existed inside East Germany is the reasonable solution to that one. Granted, they can conceivably exist separated to if Israel insists, but think a land trade of a passageway in exchange for keeping the same amount of land in West Bank border settlements could be mutually agreeable, if only Israel were willing to acknowledge the Palestinians rights.

Little bits and pieces of West Germany didn't exist inside East Germany. That was a clean cut state, right down the middle, with Berlin chilling on its own. And that's quite possibly the worst example you could suggest, because Germany was cut up just a couple of years before the state of Israel was established and they've been one piece for nearly two DECADES now.

If you did the same to the West Bank you'd leave half a million Israelis stuck in between Arab cities. You can't draw a state around that, and Israel is solely to blame for their ongoing colonization of the area. LOOK AT THE MAP. I, unlike many Israelis AND Palestinians am willing to let bygones be bygones. There is no fucking way they can get half a million settlers out without creating MORE tension. That would be required to achieve a two state solution. I say fuck it all, make it one state. If the very nature of a HIGHER ARAB POPULATION in the area (not the ME, just Mediterranean Sea to Jordan River) does not tell you that a "JEWISH" state doesn't belong, you need to take a few courses in logic and theory.

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Lemon law
A religious theocracy is never good, not for the Taliban, not for Iran, and its equally rotten in Israel.

Do you feel the Taliban, Iran and Israel share the same values and beliefs? (It's like asking a kid with Down's syndrome to point out the odd object between two circles and a square)

The difference is that you, SamurAchzar, value one above the other two?

I have to admit that as an athiest, a theocracy is a theocracy is a theocracy...

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
An "Arab state" is a country predominately inhabited by Muslim Arabs.
Why do you think such a country would escape the fate of any other Arab country - and become a poor, illiterate, tribal, and violent dictatorship? What's the difference between this and Iraq?

Well I disagree that arabs, simply by virtue of being arab, are some how destined to illiteracy and violence. I'd consider that a bigoted opinion and I guess I really don't see the need to discuss the issue further with you.

This.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The answer for Israel is easy. They have to grow up. They need to realize there is no such thing as being a Jew. There are only human beings on this earth and we are all the same. To be a Jew, or anything else is to make yourself into something that is small and does not exist. Israel needs to die to the notion of a Jewish state. Even among Jews there are a million kinds, secular, reformed, Orthodox. Jews are as insane as everybody else. Like everybody else, they think their identity makes them special. The Jew is a person who will not face his self hate, just like The AnyOtherRaceorReligion. It's all nothing but a delusion there to provide people who feel worthless with a name they can have pride in, pride conditioned by the mental illness of those around them, and false, like all pride. The Jews and the world will die because of pride. Pride is the external face of self hate and everybody is too afraid to face it. We will kill the world before we will feel how much we hate ourselves. The world you see is the world we create out of our self hate.

Wow, I'm Palestinian and I find that little monologue disturbing...

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: mrSHEiK124
Little bits and pieces of West Germany didn't exist inside East Germany. That was a clean cut state, right down the middle, with Berlin chilling on its own. And that's quite possibly the worst example you could suggest, because Germany was cut up just a couple of years before the state of Israel was established and they've been one piece for nearly two DECADES now.

What I am referring to is in Germany back in 1945 when they were cut up, until 1990 when they were reunited. There was a corridor going from West Germany, though East Germany, to West Berlin. Do you not see how the same could be done to connect Gaza to the West Bank?

And yes, no settlements in the West Bank can remain, aside from perhaps a small strip along the border as an equal trade of land for the corridor to Gaza, if both sides can agree to that. Granted, again that requires Israel acknowledging the Palestinian rights which it obviously has no intention of doing at the moment, but if US support could shift to bringing and end to this conflict rather than perpetuating it with our biased support of Israel, I think a reasonable solution is possible. What do you think?

Oh, and don't mind Moonie, he responds like that to every subject.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SandEagle

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
A single, secular state. Call it Israelistine. Or maybe Palisreal.. whatever.

Key points being that it's not a jewish religious government and the Palestinians aren't to be second class citizens within it.

israel considers itself a jewish state. Can you imagine the uproar if the US was called a 'Catholic state', a 'Baptist state' or a 'Protestant state'?

Or how about an Aryan state? After all, Israel consider people Jews by lineage regardless if they hold any Jewish religious beliefs or otherwise.

 

[shrumpage]

Originally posted by: SandEagle

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
A single, secular state. Call it Israelistine. Or maybe Palisreal.. whatever.

Key points being that it's not a jewish religious government and the Palestinians aren't to be second class citizens within it.

israel considers itself a jewish state. Can you imagine the uproar if the US was called a 'Catholic state', a 'Baptist state' or a 'Protestant state'?

You're thinking in terms Jewish as religious, it also is a culture and ethnic group. Its a secular government, such as ours, there are no requirements of a religion to hold office, be a citizen or vote.

The US is considered a Christian Nation, not due to government sponsored church, but the fact the majority claim Christianity as their religion.

 

[kylebisme]

Israel is different sitation though, as they declare themselves a Jewish state in the Declaration of Establishment of State of Israel, and have constructed their laws to protect the Jewish nature of their state.

 

[shrumpage]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: shrumpage
You're thinking in terms Jewish as religious, it also is a culture and ethnic group. Its a secular government, such as ours, there are no requirements of a religion to hold office, be a citizen or vote.

The US is considered a Christian Nation, not due to government sponsored church, but the fact the majority claim Christianity as their religion.

Israel is a bit different sitation though as they declare themselves a Jewish state in the Declaration of Establishment of State of Israel, and have constructed their laws to protect the Jewish nature of their state.

Of course its different, they've developed their culture over thousands of years, ours is created from mixing 'em in two hundred years. Is it shocking that the government reflects the culture of the majority of the people living there? Their official languages Hebrew, due to Jewish culture, and Arabic, due to Arab culture. Is that shocking?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: raildogg

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
A single, secular state. Call it Israelistine. Or maybe Palisreal.. whatever.

Key points being that it's not a jewish religious government and the Palestinians aren't to be second class citizens within it.

Impossible, as demographics would make that an Arab state in few years. Then the Jews won't budge and the world would yell "Apartheid".

Originally posted by: gingermeggs
I would remove nukes from the whole region, Israel included.

Hey, I'd remove nukes from everywhere, but if we can't do that, at least make sure the nukes are with the Israelis and not the Iranians.

LOL, why, because the Israelis are our friends and the Iranians are not?That a real good start!!!

Someone in Yemen may feel differently from that. Someone in Pakistan may feel differently from that.

So I guess it just depends on where you live and how you were brought up that determines your views. Or mostly anyway.

Also,

America and Americans seem to feel we need to control the world. That`s a very very old excuse. Since whyen did somebody appoint you the spokesperson for Americans!! Quit your sniveling and grow a pair!!

North Korea, Iran and Syria cannot have nukes but our friends in Israel can. The dictator Saddam needs to be removed from office but the previous dictator of Pakistan, Musharaff, is our friend. Just lovely.