Is Trump about to be indicted in NY?

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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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I mean you can read her filing which lays out her findings extensively. The amount of fraud she uncovered really is staggering in its scope.
but rememeber, until he's had a trial and found guilty then none of this means anything and Greenman can pretend it's all fake.

In that aspect though, he's not exactly wrong. No matter how much we 'know' /'think' Trump is guilty of, until someone actually charges him and he is found guilty, we have to presume innocence.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
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Unsure what butt kissing does either? Just shows your ignorance to ignore all the facts by being an useful idiot.
He clearly forgets that every president goes through 'hate'. There's just more around Trump because there is really more to hate about the man than the fact that he was president. Most of us would move on, if he would just disappear from the spotlight, but he refuses to go.
 
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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
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No matter how much we 'know' /'think' Trump is guilty of, until someone actually charges him and he is found guilty, we have to presume innocence.
Lol no we don’t. We’re free to consider him guilty of everything talked about in this topic. Just like the defenders can ignore all this evidence. Unless we become jury members before we have to put aside our bias and consider only the facts presented in the trial.
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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Lol no we don’t. We’re free to consider him guilty of everything talked about in this topic. Just like the defenders can ignore all this evidence. Unless we become jury members before we have to put aside our bias and consider only the facts presented in the trial.
At the risk of sounding like I'm even remotely defending his position, you don't believe in innocence until proven guilty? I mean, that IS a major component of our law.
 

Lezunto

Senior member
Oct 24, 2020
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No matter how much we 'know' /'think' Trump is guilty of, until someone actually charges him and he is found guilty, we have to presume innocence.
I've been saying this for months. However, one cannot stop myopic folks who believe they are right only because they wish something to be true.

Trump has never been criminally charged. The fact he may be in the future means nothing today.

So all this rage, fulminating and childish temper tantrums are proof of what I've maintained all along: Some of my detractors are worse than immature - they are unhinged and delusional.

Trump has yet to be charged with a crime - but I guess writing this makes me a Republican. Not someone armed with a true fact.

I happen to believe Trump is guilty of many crimes: Financial skullduggery, lying, violating national security and the most obvious - trying to overthrow the U.S. government.

But has Trump been criminally charged with any such wrongdoing? And if he is, can he be convicted?
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
7,250
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At the risk of sounding like I'm even remotely defending his position, you don't believe in innocence until proven guilty? I mean, that IS a major component of our law.
Is he guilty of tax fraud? Yes. Is he guilty of espionage? Yes. Is he guilty of inciting Jan 6? Yes. There isn’t any fact that can change my mind for these 3 cases.

Now let’s move on to Russian collusion. Okay I don’t think he talked to Putin to get to help him win. But doesn’t mean Russia didn’t interfere either.
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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Is he guilty of tax fraud? Yes. Is he guilty of espionage? Yes. Is he guilty of inciting Jan 6? Yes. There isn’t any fact that can change my mind for these 3 cases.

Now let’s move on to Russian collusion. Okay I don’t think he talked to Putin to get to help him win. But doesn’t mean Russia didn’t interfere either.
And I agree with you, however, none of that changes how the law works. If they don't think there is enough evidence to charge, there certainly isn't enough to convict. While this may infuriate many of us regarding Trump, think about if it was you the law was coming after.

So yes, as crazy as it sounds...everyone is and should be innocent until proven guilty. Saying it doesn't mean we don't think he is guilty. I still think OJ did it.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
69,657
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My opinion stands.
As you consider fskimospy's question, "Does that seem logical to you?" perhaps you would ask yourself a question I am asking myself, "What motivates these two different people. I have you pegged as a person who sees the danger of irrational hatred driving people to convict people of crimes without proof, a very immoral thing to do in my opinion. I see fskimospy as a person driven to seek justice for criminal behavior, not out of irrational hatred but out of a love of justice.

It isn't for everyone an irrational hatred of evil that drives them, but a love of justice, same as you. Personally, I am down with the notion that Trump really is a criminal and that hatred of criminal behavior gets mixed up in that with some people, it doesn't change the fact that he is a criminal. I also believe he will be indicted by the proper agency as I believe the evidence against Trump is beyond a reasonable doubt.
 

Lezunto

Senior member
Oct 24, 2020
964
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Moonbeam,

I don't think your friend is motivated by any love of justice. He's simply the flip side of people who would have gladly hung, tortured and burned the bodies of prominent Democrats and old-time Civil Rights marchers.

If a person loves Justice. then love Justice - whether it works out for you or not. If it doesn't, you try again. But you don't wish death or injury on those whose mouths are not as loud or vile as the screams for vengeance.

A lot of good all the screaming and insults have done.
 
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Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
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If a person loves Justice. then love Justice - whether it works out for you or not. If it doesn't, you try again. But you don't wish death or injury on those whose mouths are not as loud or vile as the screams for vengeance.

A lot of good all the screaming and insults have done.
You are constantly putting claims of violent tendencies on other posters here, and rarely if ever do you give examples/quotes. Why do you fantasize so much about others talking violence? Who is calling for killing and maiming other people? You are misrepresenting/strawmanning what people are actually saying here.
I've been saying this for months. However, one cannot stop myopic folks who believe they are right only because they wish something to be true...
...So all this rage, fulminating and childish temper tantrums are proof of what I've maintained all along: Some of my detractors are worse than immature - they are unhinged and delusional.
Trump has yet to be charged with a crime - but I guess writing this makes me a Republican. Not someone armed with a true fact.
Stop playing the oppressed victim, it's not convincing.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
77,822
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And I agree with you, however, none of that changes how the law works. If they don't think there is enough evidence to charge, there certainly isn't enough to convict. While this may infuriate many of us regarding Trump, think about if it was you the law was coming after.

So yes, as crazy as it sounds...everyone is and should be innocent until proven guilty. Saying it doesn't mean we don't think he is guilty. I still think OJ did it.
But none of this matters. We are not attempting to imprison Trump, just giving our personal opinions of his conduct using our intelligence and judgment. He has zero presumption of innocence here. None.

His ONLY presumption of innocence is if the state is trying to deprive him of liberty or property. Since that’s not happening here, no presumption.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
77,822
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I've been saying this for months. However, one cannot stop myopic folks who believe they are right only because they wish something to be true.

Trump has never been criminally charged. The fact he may be in the future means nothing today.

So all this rage, fulminating and childish temper tantrums are proof of what I've maintained all along: Some of my detractors are worse than immature - they are unhinged and delusional.

Trump has yet to be charged with a crime - but I guess writing this makes me a Republican. Not someone armed with a true fact.

I happen to believe Trump is guilty of many crimes: Financial skullduggery, lying, violating national security and the most obvious - trying to overthrow the U.S. government.

But has Trump been criminally charged with any such wrongdoing? And if he is, can he be convicted?
Are you a judge or juror in this case? If not, presumption of innocence does not apply to you.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,201
11,633
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At the risk of sounding like I'm even remotely defending his position, you don't believe in innocence until proven guilty? I mean, that IS a major component of our law.
Does a prosecutor have to presume innocence while trying a case?

No.

The presumption of innocence is the burden of the judge and jury. Period. The prosecutor must argue from a presumption of guilt. And the public can follow the evidence and make up their own minds. Just as the judge and jury will.

The vast majority of non-cult members have seen enough evidence to remove any and all reasonable doubt and thus any presumption of innocence.
 

Stokely

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2017
1,198
1,343
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Trump is a fraud and a crook. At some point your life's work matters. The fact is, he's rich and that makes all the difference. He can afford to settle and that's what he does.

He's never had a business partner he couldn't stiff or a lawsuit he didn't embrace.

He's exactly the sort of person I hope my kids never become and unfortunately the perfect avatar for modern America. A crass, lying bigot.
 

Indus

Diamond Member
May 11, 2002
7,368
3,198
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Trump has never been criminally charged. The fact he may be in the future means nothing today.
Everyone around New York knew he was a scam artist even before he ran for President.

Trump University.. total scam

Yet he was paid up with the right people who looked the other way for far too long.

Now that he's the former POTUS.. its like he's a demi god for his followers and fans. Very much like OJ.

Even if the evidence is damning, the jury will acquit him in a criminal case. The only way he suffers any true justice is the same way OJ did.. civil case penalties and do something so blatant with video evidence its impossible to refute.

I don't know if the video evidence will be from Maralago over him showing government secrets proving he had them and stole them or not but for all the other "criminal stuff".. I bet his kids, his family ends up in prison far earlier than he ever does.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
13,419
5,430
136
Given the impressive number of close associates of Trump's that have been indicted, convicted, subpoenaed, investigated and pardoned, along with the numerous times Trump has thoughtlessly implicated himself in crimes against the people and now, having been caught red-handed with a plethora of highly sensitive potentially devastating state's secrets, some of it missing from their jackets, a lot of it having to be involuntarily removed from his premises after indicating he gave everything that was asked for well, some very plausible assumptions can be made from those factors. And let's not even go there with his election tampering(?) troubles in Georgia and his criminal financial shenanigans in New York.

So with all of this controversy swirling around Trump, his GOP enablers, his Repub base (AKA cult fanatics, deplorables, MAGA Mob enforcers, etc.) and those oligarchs that are financing this GOP led assault on democracy, well there's not much left to the imagination acknowledging the fact that Trump is the linchpin in all of it. All roads lead to Trump, the crimes he committed for personal gain and the numerous crimes that were perpetrated on his behalf.

It's simply staggering the number of crimes, ethics violations and morally reprehensible acts of depravity that Trump and his supporters have committed these past five years and counting. Yet he is still the Repubs #1 pick to represent the...."values and traditions"(?) the Repub party stand for in their effort to "Make America Great Again"(?) LOL, just who the fuck are they trying to fool here?
 

eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
7,250
2,487
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I don't know if the video evidence will be from Maralago over him showing government secrets proving he had them and stole them or not but for all the other "criminal stuff".. I bet his kids, his family ends up in prison far earlier than he ever does.
*waits for orange monkey approved doctored video of Baron packing the boxes*
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
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I abhor echo chambers. Most of you are responding from personal perspective. I was pointing out that even though we may disagree with what Greenman is saying the law perspective is very much a reason there still are no charges for anything. I don't even know why there is a back and forth on this.

Our personal opinion doesn't sway what's happening on the law side. We can think he's guilty while the law struggles to compile enough evidence. I'm sure they are gathering evidence, and that falls on the prosecution to show enough to charge, and then get a conviction. Our opinions of guilt are beside the point.
 
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iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
6,071
1,220
136
I've been saying this for months. However, one cannot stop myopic folks who believe they are right only because they wish something to be true.

Trump has never been criminally charged. The fact he may be in the future means nothing today.

So all this rage, fulminating and childish temper tantrums are proof of what I've maintained all along: Some of my detractors are worse than immature - they are unhinged and delusional.
Your detractors?!?! Shitlol

Are you actually trying to make this thread about yourself?!

Your constant strawman arguments, you play the victim up in here, and you're straight up wrong many times regarding New York City.

Come to the table with some facts and a well thought out argument.
 

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
6,071
1,220
136
I abhor echo chambers. Most of you are responding from personal perspective. I was pointing out that even though we may disagree with what Greenman is saying the law perspective is very much a reason there still are no charges for anything. I don't even know why there is a back and forth on this.

Our personal opinion doesn't sway what's happening on the law side. We can think he's guilty while the law struggles to compile enough evidence. I'm sure they are gathering evidence, and that falls on the prosecution to show enough to charge, and then get a conviction. Our opinions of guilt are beside the point.
S’all good, mang.
 
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BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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Trump Faces 'Criminal Liability' in NY Case That Will 'Wipe Him Out': Cohen

Former President Donald Trump is facing "criminal liability" in New York Attorney General Letitia James' lawsuit into alleged business fraud that could "wipe him out," his ex-personal attorney Michael Cohen said Saturday.

James, a Democrat up for reelection this year, announced Wednesday the civil lawsuit against Trump that seeks at least $250 million in repayment from allegedly fraudulent practices and to remove all of the Trumps from their positions within the Trump Organization. Three of Trump's children—Donald Jr., Ivanka and Eric Trump—and two senior executives at the Trump Organization were also mentioned in the lawsuit.

She alleged that the Trumps enriched themselves with "numerous acts of fraud and misrepresentations" and that Trump "grossly" inflated his net worth by billions of dollars. She also accused him of cheating lenders and others with false and misleading financial statements.

While announcing the investigation, she credited Cohen, who served a prison sentence for campaign finance charges, with providing information to help bolster her case against the former president.

Cohen, once a Trump ally, has now turned against him and has cooperated with investigators looking into Trump's business dealings. He said during a Saturday appearance on MSNBC that James' case leaves Trump facing "the worst situation that he's ever been in, which is criminal liability."

In addition to filing a civil lawsuit against Trump, James also referred alleged criminal violations to the Southern District of New York (SDNY) and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS)—meaning that he could still face criminal charges in the case, though neither agency has announced any.

"Let's see if the Southern District of New York, that's no longer under his control, will pick up the mantle," Cohen said. "IRS—it's an open and shut case. Numbers don't lie. People do. And Donald is one of the biggest liars that you'll ever meet."

Cohen Says Trump Could Pay Up to $1 Billion
Cohen also said that James' lawsuit against Trump could "wipe him out" financially if a court demands he pay restitution—adding that the former president could be ordered to pay much more than the $250 million "baseline" alleged by James in the lawsuit.

"What Tish James writes it that the baseline is $250 million. She's not going below that. The amount is substantially greater," he said. "And again, as I've said on several shows, I believe the number to be somewhere between $750 [million] and $1 billion."

He continued: "That will wipe him out. He doesn't have cash."

After James announced the lawsuit, Trump said during a rally in North Carolina on Friday night that James should be "banished" from the legal profession.

"This raging maniac campaigned for office ranting and raving about her goal," Trump said to the crowd. "Her only goal is, we got to get Donald Trump. We're gonna get him. She knew nothing about me. I never heard of her."

He has also said he cannot be sued for fraud because he repaid loans borrowed from lenders "in full on or before the due date" or is still repaying them.

He also continues to face several other investigations. The Department of Justice is investigating whether he improperly stored documents at his Mar-a-Lago residence, and the committee investigating the January 6, 2021, Capitol riot continues its probe into the former president's conduct.

Meanwhile, Georgia's Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis is investigating whether Trump's call allegedly requesting Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to "find" 11,780 votes to tilt the 2020 presidential election in his favor violated state law.

Trump has maintained his innocence in each investigation.

Newsweek reached out to Trump's office for comment.
It sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me, from one of Trump's former bullshit fixers...but, hey...we can always hope...
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I abhor echo chambers. Most of you are responding from personal perspective. I was pointing out that even though we may disagree with what Greenman is saying the law perspective is very much a reason there still are no charges for anything. I don't even know why there is a back and forth on this.

Our personal opinion doesn't sway what's happening on the law side. We can think he's guilty while the law struggles to compile enough evidence. I'm sure they are gathering evidence, and that falls on the prosecution to show enough to charge, and then get a conviction. Our opinions of guilt are beside the point.
I think you are missing the point of what other people are saying here. Presumption of innocence ONLY applies to the government, not to us. It’s similar to how people say their first amendment rights are violated if they are banned from Twitter, etc. This is similarly not how that works as the first amendment only constrains the government.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
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So.... Trump said this on Hannity the other night:

“It goes on for like a page and a half. It’s a big disclaimer. It’s a very powerful disclaimer. What we do is, here’s a financial statement but be careful, it may not be accurate, it may be way off.”

WHAT?!?! ... If this is acceptable business practice, that apparently relieves you of any responsibility of lying about your finances, why do banks even ask for it? I know they are supposed to do their own due diligence, so what is the point of requesting unreliable financial disclosures from the business seeking the loan? Accepting that looks like it puts all the responsibility on them for any loses.

These "disclaimers" will be a part of his defense. What I don’t understand is why banks would accept such deceptions in the first place when they are clearly not in the banks’ interest.


“Even though several claims in financial statements that the Trump Org. provided to lenders can be proved false, analysts say in a New York Times piece, charging the former president with fraud remains a steep climb because of disclaimers that make clear the claims are unaudited and don’t follow generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP).”

Welp, I'm no contract lawyer, but I would think there’s a huge gap between using an uncommon valuation method and deliberately misrepresenting something by a factor of ten. And isn’t the essence of the allegations that the same assets were undervalued for tax purposes? Hard to explain why something is enormously different in value for different purposes other than the financial benefit these distortions would provide.

I would question the "disclaimers"’ ability to walk back one’s averred statements as to value if they are baseless or knowingly false. Unless he can show SOME basis for the claimed value, I’m not sure how well “You might wanna check yourself,” protects one who is actually lying. And if he represented the value of the same property differently in different situations when it was to his advantage to do so, sounds fraudulent to me. If James can show that they KNOWINGLY misrepresented the values (say, by showing they showed different values on the tax forms), then hopefully these "disclaimers" won’t mean shit.
 

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