Is there any such thing as a religious hot deal?

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: xirtam

People are just as certain that their religious thread is a "hot deal" as you are that it's a "scam," except most of the time, they've got more proof backing their position.

Proof? Like what, Ezekiel 25:17?

I think a kid memorizing 10 nVidia slogans for $10 could be a very hot deal for that kid. You can't just look at a marketing technique and say, "... naw, gotta be a cold deal." Unless you have proof that nVidia's scamming people out of their time and money, you've got no right to say so. You can say, "this sounds fishy to me," but I'd be careful about pointing fingers until you're ready to defend your position.

You are grossly incorrect. First, I do not have to PROVE -- this is an internet forum, not Judge Judy. A reasonable belief with support is sufficient. Secondly, I don't need to prove that a deal is a SCAM, per se, to voice an opinion. If I find a better deal at Staples, for example, I could post how that was a better deal. Finally, just because you think a deal is HOT is your prerogative. If earning $10 is worth spending 10 hours forcing your kid to recite 10 lines, and then calling around to find an authorized representative, then making an appointment with him, then driving over there, then waiting for him to see you, then waiting for your kid to recite the lines correctly with the possibility he screws up and doesn't get $10, and then waiting for your $10 to arrive (if it ever does), then fine. But for the aforementioned reasons, I do NOT believe that the deal is hot, and given these facts, I would be justified in stating that in the thread.

How do you know what's hot to me and what isn't? [story read]

I understand your point, but it is non-parallel. I obviously don't know what's hot to you, but I can reason that for certain so-called hot deals, the appeal will be miniscule and the annoyance factor will be high. For example, if someone were to post a deal for a "Nun and Animal porn DVD FAR", then a lot of people would be offended...but there would certainly be a few people who would appreciate the deal (maybe you?). However, the amount of offense generated by a deal that appeals to only a few people, IMO, should NOT be posted to AT. Similarly, with the NT's, only a few ppl could potentially benefit because most Christians N Friends already have their own, know where to get one, or do not need one. OTOH, the NT's are offensive to many because ppl interpret the Free NT deals as just another annoying attempt for the Christians N Pals to "spread the word"...similar to the people who knock on my door on Sundays.

Valsalva

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut
Valsalva

Hypocrite... :disgust: I have no hatred for you. I'm simply disgusted by your hatred and bigotry and feel that it has no place here on AT. I am against you the same way I would be against any other bigot, like a racist, sexist, or homophobe. I put you in THAT category... where you belong. You're never trying to "warn" people of "scams" in religious HD's, you're just trying to throw in your bigoted $0.02 worth of hatred.

You can keep telling yourself that you "have no hatred for [me]" but in reality, what you are feeling is hatred...you use the words "disgust," and you compare me to bigots, racists, sexists, and homophobes. (As an aside, isn't the Catholic church fairly homophobic?...last time I checked, you couldn't be homosexual if you were a priest.) Anyway, I understand where you're coming from. Anyone who does not believe in the bible and does not think free NT deals are hot MUST be a bigot/racist/sexist/etc. For the record, I am actually indifferent to a person's religious background -- some of my friends happen to be Christian, for example.

And if you knew anything about Christianity, you'd know that most Christians believe that they are saved by Faith alone, and not by works.

But anyway, it looks like you haven't been paying attention in Sunday school. Here are some passages that support the notion that salvation is not by faith alone, but works as well.

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." --Mt 16:27

"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" -- Mt 19:17

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- Jn 5:29

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" -- Jas 2:14

"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." -- Jas 2:17

Passages taken from http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com.

Valsalva

 

[xirtam]

Thanks, Valsalva, I think I understand your position better.

I don't know, I guess we disagree on some deeper philosophical level. For example, when I see a hot deal on free condoms, I don't run in there shouting that condoms aren't 100 percent effective and that whoever's sponsoring this deal is promoting the demoralization of the United States. But a deal on free condoms isn't hot to me, and in a way, it's offensive. So that's why I don't post in the thread. Where I come from, that's called "thread crapping." I guess you gotta get it out of your system sometime, but you might want to save it for the people who really deserve it so you can rant without feeling like you've said the same thing a thousand times. By then it just flows so much that it sounds rehearsed, takes no effort on your part, and probably doesn't get anything off your chest. Unless perhaps you picked up the latest HD on a squeezeball.

I could play the whole quote game and perpetuate the argument, but I'm aware that it wouldn't help you A) like me better, and B) alter your position in any way. So I won't. Suffice it to say that I misunderstood some of your ideas in your post and you misunderstood some of mine. You do raise some valid points that some people around here don't like. And that's why they're telling you that hell's a hot deal. But then there are those things you strip from context... anyway I'm not going to get into it. Some people call it flamebait, but I'm still working out whether you're trying to find people to yell at, preach at, or learn from. I know it's one of the three.

And as far as the skeptics annotated Bible is concerned, they might as well have found the phrases "Judas committed suicide," and then later, "Now go and do thou likewise," then tried to preach to the world that the Bible says that you should commit suicide and that those cults who sit on mountaintops and take lethal injections are aligned with the teachings of the New Testament. They have an agenda. They know what they want to say, and they're going to twist the words in the Bible to say what they want. And they probably got the idea from Satan, who quoted Scripture to Jesus as support to lead Him astray. But Jesus responded with Scripture, but out of a complete understanding of it, not with a manipulative agenda. See Matthew 4; it's probably not in your annotated version, so you may want to take somebody up on the next free NT deal. If you really want to go at it on the faith/works issue we can, but it's for another thread.

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: xirtam
Thanks, Valsalva, I think I understand your position better.
I don't know, I guess we disagree on some deeper philosophical level. For example, when I see a hot deal on free condoms, I don't run in there shouting that condoms aren't 100 percent effective and that whoever's sponsoring this deal is promoting the demoralization of the United States. But a deal on free condoms isn't hot to me, and in a way, it's offensive. So that's why I don't post in the thread. Where I come from, that's called "thread crapping."

That's another non-parallel example. Free condoms are appealing to far more ppl than a free NT and they are a lot less offensive -- even though both may be offensive to some and beneficial to some, the NT is far more offensive and far less useful and therefore, I would say that it is NOT a hot deal. If you were to say condoms have a 12% failure rate in couples using them for 1 year and you were to point out that the birth control pill, IUD, or norplant are significantly more effective, i don't think anyone would have a problem with that!! I think people might actually appreciate the heads up (no pun intended). Furthermore, there is no evidence to support the notion that condoms actually encourage ppl to have sex more, and so you could hardly say condoms "promote the demoralization of the United States." In fact, if you look at the percentage of people who have had sexual intercourse by age 18, it's something like 70-90% depending on your source -- I hardly think you could say that 70-90% of young ppl are behaving immorally.

And as far as the skeptics annotated Bible is concerned, they might as well have found the phrases "Judas committed suicide," and then later, "Now go and do thou likewise," then tried to preach to the world that the Bible says that you should commit suicide and that those cults who sit on mountaintops and take lethal injections are aligned with the teachings of the New Testament. They have an agenda.

You seem to imply that the quotes are taken out of context with lines spliced together. However, the excerpts are not spliced and even as they stand alone, they really support the notion that there is some consideration given to works with respect to salvation. If other parts of the bible say otherwise (which they do), they are contradictory -- but you cannot just ignore one segment of the bible in favor of another just because you don't like what it says. Regardless of the agenda of the website, it quotes directly from the bible, which is the best piece of evidence i can think of -- direct quotes supercede what they teach in SS, what your minister says, and 2nd and 3rd party references. If you really think they're out of context, put 1 or 2 of them IN CONTEXT and show me how the meaning differs. I'm interested. Seriously.

They know what they want to say, and they're going to twist the words in the Bible to say what they want. And they probably got the idea from Satan, who quoted Scripture to Jesus as support to lead Him astray. But Jesus responded with Scripture, but out of a complete understanding of it, not with a manipulative agenda.

Oh brother. If you get really desperate, don't forget the "God is so mysterious that a human such as yourself cannot possible understand Him...that is why you do not understand ___________" argument. The argument you use is what the Church teaches you just in case someone busts a line that contradicts the Church's teaching -- so whenever someone quotes a bible passage that isn't consistent with what you've learned, you just say the other person doesn't really understand the bible and that Satan used that trick too. Gimme a break, man.

Valsalva

Valsalva

 

[QTArrhythmic]

I believe that people need to be informed about the validity of the deal. In the case of some religious deals, people might be interested in whether or not Jesus will be knocking at your door if you happen to sign up for the free Holy Trinity Soap from "God, Bath and Body Works."

Valsalva seeks to provide the best information for anandtechers to make informed decisions; I mean I don't believe there will some sort of 'divine intervention' (e.g. God will come down and tell you if this a good deal or not).

For example, if you had a deal posted on some new coffee you would want to know the details (sort of like the following) :

"I'm not a cobb or corn, so you can stop butterin' me up. I don't need you to tell me how good my coffee is. I'm the one who buys it, I know how f&ckin' good it is. When Bonnie goes shoppin;, she buys sh-t. I buy the gourmet expensive stuff 'cause when I drink it, I wanna taste it."

 

[Jzero]

I *am* on the issue, smart guy -- you stated previously that I was discourteous, and now you tell me to "STFU" twice. Tell me, how can you demand that others behave accordingly when you can't even behave courteously yourself?

As I said before courtesy has no impact on you. Why should I waste keystrokes on you when "STFU" is so much faster?

Really? You seemed so wounded whenever the religious threads were locked...and so full of anger....and you all of your rage seemed to be focused on me as a scapegoat, even though my role wasn't even that great. I would think it means a lot to you that the religious deals are out there. So much that you would result to profanity on a public forum. Remember what anger did to Annakin Skywalker.......

Wounded because I remember when I first started reading the HD forum in 1998, there was more freedom and respect. There was never a discussion of banning this or that type of deal because the populace had enough respect for each other to know when and when not to speak. Unfortunately, you and a few others like yourself have come and destroyed that atmosphere of respect. We didn't have a "thread crapping" rule when I started here.

We didn't NEED one. To me you represent the intellectual decline of Anandtech. The reason many well-respected regulars have sought greener pastures, and the reason I myself have considered it.

Good day.

 

[przero]

QTArrhythmic - You really don't believe what you just said do you? Look at his history. He trashes anything religious! Which is fine, except in the HD forum, in which case he is a whining little thread crapper, nothing more, nothing less.

ValsalvaYourHeartOut - You shouldn't quote scriptures, it shows your lack of wisdom in the subject matter. the faith/works arguement is totally out of your league. Word to the Wise - Don't crap on threads your not interested in, just move on. Wanna' argue - Head to OT!

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: Jzero

I *am* on the issue, smart guy -- you stated previously that I was discourteous, and now you tell me to "STFU" twice. Tell me, how can you demand that others behave accordingly when you can't even behave courteously yourself?

As I said before courtesy has no impact on you. Why should I waste keystrokes on you when "STFU" is so much faster?

For the 2nd time, you sidestep the issue. I ask again: How can you demand that others behave accordingly when you cannot even behave courteously yourself?

When I first started reading the HD forum in 1998, there was more freedom and respect. There was never a discussion of banning this or that type of deal because the populace had enough respect for each other to know when and when not to speak. Unfortunately, you and a few others like yourself have come and destroyed that atmosphere of respect. We didn't have a "thread crapping" rule when I started here.

OOHHHH boy. You've got to be kidding me. Yeah, I am the sole party responsible for the decline of ATHD since 1998...talk about delusional...someone I know didn't take his antipsychotic meds this morning. I've got news for you, bud -- I didn't even know about AT in 1998. Or 1999. Or 2000. ...and unless you read ONLY posts by me, there are plenty of what you call "thread crappers" out there. In fact, I would say at lesat every other post in ATHD has at least one thread crap!...If you are that hypersensitive, I suggest that you log off the internet and flip on the Disney Channel. Jesus H. Christ!

To me you represent the intellectual decline of Anandtech. The reason many well-respected regulars have sought greener pastures, and the reason I myself have considered it. Good day.

ROTFLMAO. "Intellectual decline?????????" No. If you want to see intellectual decline, visit this link here.

If you feel that ATHD has gone downhill in terms of courtesy and intellectualism, that's certainly your opinion -- but to hold me responsible is absolutely ludicrous.

Valsalva

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: przero
QTArrhythmic - You really don't believe what you just said do you? Look at his history. He trashes anything religious! Which is fine, except in the HD forum, in which case he is a whining little thread crapper, nothing more, nothing less.

See, this just goes to show that you've formed an opinion without examining all the available info. FYI, I rarely speak about any religion not based on the Bible....which means i almost never mention Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, etc.

ValsalvaYourHeartOut - You shouldn't quote scriptures, it shows your lack of wisdom in the subject matter. the faith/works arguement is totally out of your league.

Hey, instead of your nonsequitur of the ad hominem type, how about actually addressing the excerpts I have posted. They are, in fact, quotations from the primary source, and they support the assertion that works are considered for salvation.

Word to the Wise - Don't crap on threads your not interested in, just move on. Wanna' argue - Head to OT!

Word to the Dumb - I'm already in OT.

Valsalva

 

[przero]

I stand corrected on "anything religious". I'll now say "anything Christian".

Now to prove to you works are not required to go to Heaven:

Luke 23
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

No works involved. But the point is you have to understand the entire Bible in context. If you look at each Scripture individually you'll never grasp the meaning. But this is for OT, not HD.

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: przero
I stand corrected on "anything religious". I'll now say "anything Christian".

Now to prove to you works are not required to go to Heaven:

Luke 23
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

No works involved. But the point is you have to understand the entire Bible in context. If you look at each Scripture individually you'll never grasp the meaning. But this is for OT, not HD.

Your passage from Luke contributes nothing. I already stipulate that you must have faith in order to be saved, according to the Bible. My argument is that your works are considered as well. Your passage supports the requirement of faith, which I do not disagree with, but does not exclude works as an additional requirement. I have provided 5 excerpts which explicitly state that works are a required as well. Here they are again just in case you conveniently forgot about them. These are pretty cut and dry...not much to argue with.

And for the second time, we are already in OT (not HD).

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." --Mt 16:27

"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" -- Mt 19:17

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- Jn 5:29

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" -- Jas 2:14

"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." -- Jas 2:17

Valsalva

 

[przero]

What is required for Salvation? Is that your question?

 

[przero]

First of all we have this passage from Romans:

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In it the Apostle Paul is explaining that if it is "works" that make you righteous, then there is no "Grace" or that it accounts for nothing.

And this passage from Galatians:

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

This theme is prevalent throughout the New Testament. The point being made is that Jesus Christ paid it all at the Cross. Nothing we can do can add to that. Now works are very important to the Christian, but not for salvation. we are all commanded to be "like Him". Just because a Christian is rude or vulgar does not mean he is not saved. (As a sidebar, he may not truly be a Christian - Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' ). The entire Old Testament point to the coming Messiah as a sacrifice for his people, and unlike other sacrifices, this one will pay the debt in full.

The Apostle Paul says that:

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[xirtam]

That's another non-parallel example. Free condoms are appealing to far more ppl than a free NT and they are a lot less offensive -- even though both may be offensive to some and beneficial to some, the NT is far more offensive and far less useful and therefore, I would say that it is NOT a hot deal. If you were to say condoms have a 12% failure rate in couples using them for 1 year and you were to point out that the birth control pill, IUD, or norplant are significantly more effective, i don't think anyone would have a problem with that!! I think people might actually appreciate the heads up (no pun intended). Furthermore, there is no evidence to support the notion that condoms actually encourage ppl to have sex more, and so you could hardly say condoms "promote the demoralization of the United States." In fact, if you look at the percentage of people who have had sexual intercourse by age 18, it's something like 70-90% depending on your source -- I hardly think you could say that 70-90% of young ppl are behaving immorally.

I don't see a lot of other people whining in the religious threads. Pretty much just you. So I don't see how you can judge how the NT is "offensive to most people." If that's the case, rather than put his hand on the Bible when swearing the President in, perhaps we should just hand him a condom and say, "well, be a good boy in office." And yes, I think I can say that 70-90% of young ppl are behaving immorally. In fact, I think 100% are. And encouraging them to have sex outside of marriage isn't going to help imo.

You seem to imply that the quotes are taken out of context with lines spliced together.

No, they're not. I grant you that.

However, the excerpts are not spliced and even as they stand alone, they really support the notion that there is some consideration given to works with respect to salvation.

Only insofar as that your works will accompany faith, but it is the faith that saves. The works just exemplify your faith. Matthew 5:16.

If other parts of the bible say otherwise (which they do), they are contradictory -- but you cannot just ignore one segment of the bible in favor of another just because you don't like what it says.

Your skeptics Bible does exactly that. It ignores the entire context of the idea of salvation as a whole and nitpick at passages which focus entirely on the segregation of works and faith for the purposes of establishing a contradiction, which is obviously not there in spirit. It's not that difficult.

of the agenda of the website, it quotes directly from the bible, which is the best piece of evidence i can think of -- direct quotes supercede what they teach in SS, what your minister says, and 2nd and 3rd party references. If you really think they're out of context, put 1 or 2 of them IN CONTEXT and show me how the meaning differs. I'm interested. Seriously.

If you're seriously interested, then read the Bible. If you want to find out about US government policy, don't consult Iraq's media. Likewise, if you're interested in what scripture has to say, don't consult the skeptics annotated Bible. You don't have to completely neglect it, but it's not going to be your primary source if you're really interested in finding out what the Bible has to say. It's like the flat earth society. You don't join it to find truth. You join it because you already have some ideas and want to push an agenda. If you want those verses in context, then when you go to do your search in the concordance on "works," don't just strip the verses that seem to focus on the point you've already decided you want the Bible to make.

Oh brother. If you get really desperate, don't forget the "God is so mysterious that a human such as yourself cannot possible understand Him...that is why you do not understand ___________" argument. The argument you use is what the Church teaches you just in case someone busts a line that contradicts the Church's teaching -- so whenever someone quotes a bible passage that isn't consistent with what you've learned, you just say the other person doesn't really understand the bible and that Satan used that trick too. Gimme a break, man.

I think that argument's weak. Please don't use it. I didn't. And no, I didn't learn that argument in some stupid "Church." I contradict much of the "Church's teaching" myself. And I really don't appreciate you drudging up my past that you've contrived for me and putting words in my mouth. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised. You're doing the same thing with the Bible.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: przero
I stand corrected on "anything religious". I'll now say "anything Christian".

Now to prove to you works are not required to go to Heaven:

Luke 23
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

No works involved. But the point is you have to understand the entire Bible in context. If you look at each Scripture individually you'll never grasp the meaning. But this is for OT, not HD.

Your passage from Luke contributes nothing. I already stipulate that you must have faith in order to be saved, according to the Bible. My argument is that your works are considered as well. Your passage supports the requirement of faith, which I do not disagree with, but does not exclude works as an additional requirement. I have provided 5 excerpts which explicitly state that works are a required as well. Here they are again just in case you conveniently forgot about them. These are pretty cut and dry...not much to argue with.

And for the second time, we are already in OT (not HD).

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." --Mt 16:27

"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" -- Mt 19:17

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." -- Jn 5:29

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" -- Jas 2:14

"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." -- Jas 2:17

Valsalva

Theology is interesting but let's return this back to the topic.

IF i post a religious HD's thread and you don't like it, stay out. that's all there is too it. what may be a cold deal for you may be a very hot deal to a lot of other people. as long as you choose not to flame in it or turn it into a discussion of theology there are no problems.


Let's say Bill Clinton wrote a book. autobiography, whatever. and someone posted a HD because it could be purchased for a VERY low price. Then a bunch of right winger's came in and started trashing clinton. So much so that the mods lock the thread. Is that right?? should the mods allow that??

that is exactly what your doing valsalva.

let it go.

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: xirtam
I don't see a lot of other people whining in the religious threads. Pretty much just you. So I don't see how you can judge how the NT is "offensive to most people."

Well obviously you're not reading the threads then. The reason why the religious hot deals are locked is NOT because the mods say "welp, looks like valsalva has posted, time to lock." It's because there's a barrage of people who dislike the deal and "thread crap."

And yes, I think I can say that 70-90% of young ppl are behaving immorally. In fact, I think 100% are. And encouraging them to have sex outside of marriage isn't going to help imo.

70-90% of young people behave immorally??? See, it's this kinda of sanctimonious "holier than thou" thinking that some Christians have that really pisses people off. And for the second time, studies do not show that condoms encourage ppl to have sex outside of marriage -- why is that so difficult for you to understand. It's not like one teen takes a condoms out of his pocket and the other says: "woh, I wasn't gonna have sex until I was married, but now that you have one of those Trojans you got free-after-MIR, let's go roll in the hay."

Only insofar as that your works will accompany faith, but it is the faith that saves. The works just exemplify your faith. Matthew 5:16.

Not according to Jas 2:17 -- "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Your skeptics Bible does exactly that. It ignores the entire context of the idea of salvation as a whole and nitpick at passages which focus entirely on the segregation of works and faith for the purposes of establishing a contradiction, which is obviously not there in spirit. It's not that difficult.

The bible is filled with contradictions, injustices, violence, inequality, etc. However, you can choose to ignore them if you'd like, but it's all there whether you like it or not. You can choose to believe there are no contradictions, but in reality, there are -- and whether or not you are saved by faith + works or faith alone is extremely unclear. What you are taught in Sunday school is just someone's interpretation of what he is read, but if you examine the primary source yourself, it is not cut and dry.

If you're seriously interested, then read the Bible.

I *have* read the bible, and it is one of the worst pieces of fiction I've read. I just like the SAB because it is a searchable annotated version that suits my purpose.

Valsalva

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

IF i post a religious HD's thread and you don't like it, stay out. that's all there is too it. what may be a cold deal for you may be a very hot deal to a lot of other people. as long as you choose not to flame in it or turn it into a discussion of theology there are no problems.

If most of the religious hot deals were HOT, then I would stay out. However, they are usually offensive to me or NOT a hot deal, and therefore it is perfectly acceptable for me to post in the thread. For instance, in the last religious thread, $10 to get your kid to memorize the 10 commandments, I pointed out how the deal was COLD because the time and trouble spent to get the deal was way more than a measly $10. Similarly, if a $10 video card required you to drive 10 hours, find some guy to stamp your rebate form, and do a monkey dance, then I would point out that that deal was not hot. This is how the HD forums work. The Christian ppl here just seem to be offended because they choose to believe that every religious deal, regardless of its nature, MUST be hot by default.

Let's say Bill Clinton wrote a book. autobiography, whatever. and someone posted a HD because it could be purchased for a VERY low price. Then a bunch of right winger's came in and started trashing clinton. So much so that the mods lock the thread. Is that right?? should the mods allow that?? that is exactly what your doing valsalva.

It seems that many of you religious ppl here don't actually read my posts, yet insist on blaming me for all sorts of things. I've been accused of trashing all religions, when I have rarely even spoken of any non-bible religion like Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. I've been blamed for the intellectual decline of AT since 1998, even though I'd never heard of AT until a couple of yrs ago. I've even been accused of being the sole party responsible for the religious threads getting locked, despite the obvious fact that it's the barrage of "thread craps" from other people that ultimately prompt the mods to put the lock on. So now, I'm the equivalent of "a bunch of right wingers coming in and trashing a Clinton deal." What, are you saying that I simultaneously have 20 AT accounts and I log in 20 times to ruin your already cold deals??? Yeah, that's it.

Valsalva

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

IF i post a religious HD's thread and you don't like it, stay out. that's all there is too it. what may be a cold deal for you may be a very hot deal to a lot of other people. as long as you choose not to flame in it or turn it into a discussion of theology there are no problems.

If most of the religious hot deals were HOT, then I would stay out. However, they are usually offensive to me or NOT a hot deal, and therefore it is perfectly acceptable for me to post in the thread. For instance, in the last religious thread, $10 to get your kid to memorize the 10 commandments, I pointed out how the deal was COLD because the time and trouble spent to get the deal was way more than a measly $10. Similarly, if a $10 video card required you to drive 10 hours, find some guy to stamp your rebate form, and do a monkey dance, then I would point out that that deal was not hot. This is how the HD forums work. The Christian ppl here just seem to be offended because they choose to believe that every religious deal, regardless of its nature, MUST be hot by default.

Let's say Bill Clinton wrote a book. autobiography, whatever. and someone posted a HD because it could be purchased for a VERY low price. Then a bunch of right winger's came in and started trashing clinton. So much so that the mods lock the thread. Is that right?? should the mods allow that?? that is exactly what your doing valsalva.

It seems that many of you religious ppl here don't actually read my posts, yet insist on blaming me for all sorts of things. I've been accused of trashing all religions, when I have rarely even spoken of any non-bible religion like Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. I've been blamed for the intellectual decline of AT since 1998, even though I'd never heard of AT until a couple of yrs ago. I've even been accused of being the sole party responsible for the religious threads getting locked, despite the obvious fact that it's the barrage of "thread craps" from other people that ultimately prompt the mods to put the lock on. So now, I'm the equivalent of "a bunch of right wingers coming in and trashing a Clinton deal." What, are you saying that I simultaneously have 20 AT accounts and I log in 20 times to ruin your already cold deals??? Yeah, that's it.

Valsalva

and you didn't respond to the argument. you only misdirected it.

whethor or not YOU ARE the person responsible for flaming is NOT RELEVANT. the fact is people are coming and flaming and trolling religious hot deals threads. It shouldn't be allowed. any more than it should be allowed in my example.

 

[xirtam]

70-90% of young people behave immorally??? See, it's this kinda of sanctimonious "holier than thou" thinking that some Christians have that really pisses people off.

When did I exclude Christians from this 70-90%? In fact, I think 100% of not only young people, but the rest of the population, behaves immorally. Romans 3:23. Do you get some sort of stimulation from putting words in people's mouths?

Only insofar as that your works will accompany faith, but it is the faith that saves. The works just exemplify your faith. Matthew 5:16.

Not according to Jas 2:17 -- "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Yeah. And if your faith is dead, it can't save you. Your works will accompany your faith if it's alive, and the alive faith will save you. What good is dead faith? Christianity isn't about the people who just go around talking the talk. You've gotta put your money where your mouth is. That's all James was saying.

The bible is filled with contradictions, injustices, violence, inequality, etc. However, you can choose to ignore them if you'd like, but it's all there whether you like it or not. You can choose to believe there are no contradictions, but in reality, there are -- and whether or not you are saved by faith + works or faith alone is extremely unclear. What you are taught in Sunday school is just someone's interpretation of what he is read, but if you examine the primary source yourself, it is not cut and dry.

Most people who teach Sunday School would agree that it's not "cut and dry." But they'll also have firm supporting opinions. I've checked out the skeptics annotated Bible as well as many other sources that try to discredit the Bible, and I haven't been able to substantiate their claims yet. As far as the bible being filled with contradictions, I disagree. But I can see where you're coming from. Closer analysis usually allows me to understand the Bible better... trust me, I'm not just running around blindly trying to reinterpret every apparent contradiction. Is the Bible filled with injustices? It documents injustices that happen. It doesn't support injustice. Unfairness, yes. Injustice, no. Violence: Yes. Lots of violence. History is brutal. Inequality: yes. Inequality isn't just a thing of the past. It's everywhere. One of the major tenets of communism is to rid the world of inequality. If we all became third-world countries, we wouldn't have this inequality problem. Ultimately, though, the problem isn't with inequality -- it's with bitterness.

I *have* read the bible, and it is one of the worst pieces of fiction I've read. I just like the SAB because it is a searchable annotated version that suits my purpose.

It's hard to believe that somebody can read the Bible and still so flagrantly misinterpret it. But it happens. Eyes, but they cannot see... ears, but they cannot hear...

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: ValsalvaYourHeartOut

Originally posted by: LeeTJ
whethor or not YOU ARE the person responsible for flaming is NOT RELEVANT. the fact is people are coming and flaming and trolling religious hot deals threads. It shouldn't be allowed. any more than it should be allowed in my example.

See, that was my point. You people seem to lump me in the category of troller and flamer... however, as I have explained time and time again, I am merely pointing out reasons why I find the deal NOT HOT and sometimes offensive to me. I cited the example of the 10 commandments deal, and I explained why the deal was stone cold. You people need to actually read what I write instead of just "choosing to believe" that I have trolled and flamed. Historically, the true trollers and flamers in these threads have been the people with the one-liners like "Jesus sucks,heheheh" etc. I explain why the deals are not hot. Just in case you didn't read it the first time (which I'm pretty sure you didn't...or your reading comprehensions needs work):

"If most of the religious hot deals were HOT, then I would stay out. However, they are usually offensive to me or NOT a hot deal, and therefore it is perfectly acceptable for me to post in the thread. For instance, in the last religious thread, $10 to get your kid to memorize the 10 commandments, I pointed out how the deal was COLD because the time and trouble spent to get the deal was way more than a measly $10. Similarly, if a $10 video card required you to drive 10 hours, find some guy to stamp your rebate form, and do a monkey dance, then I would point out that that deal was not hot. This is how the HD forums work. The Christian ppl here just seem to be offended because they choose to believe that every religious deal, regardless of its nature, MUST be hot by default. "

Valsalva

 

[Nightfall]

I have skimmed through most of the posts in this thread but here are my thoughts on the matter.

First off, is a religious deal a hot deal? Only if your religion is what the deal is about. I have seen every thread get closed from free bibles to satanistic bumper stickers. In all those threads, I have seen bashing from one group or another. It never stops until the thread is closed and people get time off.

I consider myself an open minded person and very Religiously Tolerant of others and their beliefs. While there are a lot of close minded people here, there are others who just want everyone to get along. However, in this fourm, that isn't going to happen unless everyone gets on board. Until then, the flaming is going to continue.

My suggestion is that all religious hot deals be posted in off topic or not at all. Until everyone is able to at least get along and have an open mind about things, then this kind of thing is going to happen. Not worth banning others over it. Just stop the religious hot deals all together and life will be good.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Nightfall
I have skimmed through most of the posts in this thread but here are my thoughts on the matter.

First off, is a religious deal a hot deal? Only if your religion is what the deal is about. I have seen every thread get closed from free bibles to satanistic bumper stickers. In all those threads, I have seen bashing from one group or another. It never stops until the thread is closed and people get time off.

I consider myself an open minded person and very Religiously Tolerant of others and their beliefs. While there are a lot of close minded people here, there are others who just want everyone to get along. However, in this fourm, that isn't going to happen unless everyone gets on board. Until then, the flaming is going to continue.

My suggestion is that all religious hot deals be posted in off topic or not at all. Until everyone is able to at least get along and have an open mind about things, then this kind of thing is going to happen. Not worth banning others over it. Just stop the religious hot deals all together and life will be good.

you see, that is a possibility but it's the wrong message. so if i want to get all "Compusa" hd banned all i have to do is get about 15 to 20 different people to hate it enough and get heated enough about it in each compusa HD thread until someone comes around and says, ok, we can't get along so we'll ban all compusa hd's until everyone get's along??

that is LUDICROUS. there are specific rules regarding hd. don't flame dont troll. if you don't like it move on.

why not just enforce the rules already in place??

 

[ValsalvaYourHeartOut]

Originally posted by: xirtam

70-90% of young people behave immorally??? See, it's this kinda of sanctimonious "holier than thou" thinking that some Christians have that really pisses people off.

When did I exclude Christians from this 70-90%? In fact, I think 100% of not only young people, but the rest of the population, behaves immorally. Romans 3:23. Do you get some sort of stimulation from putting words in people's mouths?

Work on your reading comprehension. I never stated or implied that you did not exclude Christians from this 70-90%. I am merely pointing out that when certain Christian people exhibit a holier-than-thou attitude (in this case YOU, for denouncing 70-90% of the U.S. population, including your fellow Christians), it pisses other people off.

Not according to Jas 2:17 -- "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Yeah. And if your faith is dead, it can't save you. Your works will accompany your faith if it's alive, and the alive faith will save you. What good is dead faith? Christianity isn't about the people who just go around talking the talk. You've gotta put your money where your mouth is. That's all James was saying.

Oh boy, you really need to work on your reading comprehension. Sometimes there are sentences that may have more than one meaning...but even so, there are some interpretations that are grossly inconsistent with the syntax of the sentence -- yours is one of them. The excerpt clearly states that faith by itself [without works] will NOT lead to salvation, thus implying that both faith and works are required. The meaning you derive is found NOWHERE in that excerpt. This isn't Sunday School -- you cannot twist the meaning around of what is clearly stated and add your own fairy tale to go along with it. What's written is what's written.

As far as the bible being filled with contradictions, I disagree. But I can see where you're coming from. Closer analysis usually allows me to understand the Bible better... trust me, I'm not just running around blindly trying to reinterpret every apparent contradiction. Is the Bible filled with injustices? It documents injustices that happen. It doesn't support injustice. Unfairness, yes. Injustice, no. Violence: Yes. Lots of violence. History is brutal. Inequality: yes. Inequality isn't just a thing of the past. It's everywhere. One of the major tenets of communism is to rid the world of inequality. If we all became third-world countries, we wouldn't have this inequality problem. Ultimately, though, the problem isn't with inequality -- it's with bitterness.

God is such a benevolent and loving entity -- he is also omniscient and omnipotent, capable of changing the course of things and spreading his love. If He truly exists, then how on earth could He allow such violence and injustic take place on the earth and man that He created? Does he not love all his children? Or is he not omnipotent? Pick one.

It's hard to believe that somebody can read the Bible and still so flagrantly misinterpret it. But it happens. Eyes, but they cannot see... ears, but they cannot hear...

Yeah, that's one of the handwaving lines the Church teaches you when someone does not appear to understand the truth that you try to teach them. Come on, I know all your tricks. Don't forget: if they refuse to learn, "you can only plant the seed." That handwaver works equally well in this situation.

Valsalva

 

[LeeTJ]

I must say vasalva. you must have been a very diehard christian at one point in your life. the kind i avoid, because you talk just like a lot of those really obnoxious annoying know it all i know better than everyone i'm more righteous than everyone evangelical i have to save everyone christians.

i hope whatever it was that broke your heart and made you what you are now gets resolved.

 

[Jzero]

I've been blamed for the intellectual decline of AT since 1998, even though I'd never heard of AT until a couple of yrs ago. I've even been accused of being the sole party responsible for the religious threads getting locked, despite the obvious fact that it's the barrage of "thread craps" from other people that ultimately prompt the mods to put the lock on.

No, but I will blame you for not being able to read. I stated that _I_ have been a member since 1998, and in the past few years, people like YOU have contributed to the deterioration of this community. I have also EXPLICITLY stated that you are the scape goat, Valsalva, because of the thread that spawned this discussion, and I have also explicitly stated that you are not the only guilty party.
I have also stated that you REPRESENT the intellectual decline here, not that you are the only one. Get over yourself.

At the end of the day, you have a prejudice against Christianity, which is all fine and dandy here in OT, but in HD it is not.

And since I like the way you cry like a little girl when I tell you to STFU......
STFU!

If there is a mod reading this, my statement is simple:
Valsalva has stated in so many words that he feels the thread crapping rule does not apply to his own personal religious vendetta. The case is simple: ban the deals, or ban his ilk.

I support either method, the latter more than the former.