Is the .22 caliber even close to being adaquate for self defense use?

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: pontifex
you've been making a lot of gun threads altely Jedi. You thinking about getting one or what?

thinking about it.. i like target practice at the range, but the ferengi in me hates paying anywhere close to $10 per box.

the .22 is $1 per box. that got my lobes perked.

but the 2nd part for me in owning a gun is self defense (street + home).

if a .22 has a hard time penetrating a puffy down ski jacket at 20feet, then it's close to useless for self defense.

looking for the optimum in price/performance bullet in an automatic.

automatic because i rather have 15 shots than the 6 in a revolver. in a combat situation, my acuracury will probably drop DRASTICALLY as compared to a range.

edit:
I rather have too many bullets than come up 1 short

 

[TraumaRN]

Originally posted by: CadetLee

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: boredhokie
I thought for home defense a shotgun was best? You don't have to aim as carefully and you're less likely to punch a hole through the wall and kill a bystander. Why would you want a handgun in this situation?

Because a handgun is small and lightweight, less recoil, less hassle and depending on caliber plenty of stopping power.

I still insist that a .22LR is more deadly than people realize. At close range and center mass without access to immediate medical attention you'll have issues.

<-----works at a Trauma hospital....

I realize that one will have issues, and am not disputing the lethality of a .22lr -- but those issues are not always immediate enough to prevent the assailant from giving you issues with a knife. A large-caliber weapon will (more often) have significantly more *immediate* stopping power.

Thats true. Dont disagree with you on that aspect.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Rule #1: Have a gun

While no one makes a .22LR self-defense round, due to liability reasons I'm sure, it'll kill someone. And a .22LR in your pocket is a hell of a lot better than a .45 left at home.

Granted this is for carry, for home defense, you can do better

huh?! .22 self defsense round carrys too much liabilty@?!?!?!

explain pls as how a smaller round can have more liability than a 9mm?

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: pontifex
you've been making a lot of gun threads altely Jedi. You thinking about getting one or what?

thinking about it.. i like target practice at the range, but the ferengi in me hates paying anywhere close to $10 per box.

the .22 is $1 per box. that got my lobes perked.

but the 2nd part for me in owning a gun is self defense (street + home).

if a .22 has a hard time penetrating a puffy down ski jacket at 20feet, then it's close to useless for self defense.

looking for the optimum in price/performance bullet in an automatic.

automatic because i rather have 15 shots than the 6 in a revolver. in a combat situation, my acuracury will probably drop DRASTICALLY as compared to a range.

.45 with .22lr conversion kit for plinking.

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Rule #1: Have a gun

While no one makes a .22LR self-defense round, due to liability reasons I'm sure, it'll kill someone. And a .22LR in your pocket is a hell of a lot better than a .45 left at home.

Granted this is for carry, for home defense, you can do better

huh?! .22 self defsense round carrys too much liabilty@?!?!?!

explain pls as how a smaller round can have more liability than a 9mm?

Injured/maimed: Lawsuit
Dead: No lawsuit

 

[Perknose]

The best caliber of defense is an alert brain, well focused, in the service of a personality with well-honed people skills.

Like most but not all auto accidents, most but not all civilian situations where you would conceivably need to shoot someone mean that you dropped the ball/fecked-up well in advance.

 

[Turin39789]

I don't work in a line of work where I get people that pissed off at me. So personally, I'm alright without a gun. If you are carrying something for the chance that you may get mugged/jumped etc. Just carry whatever you feel like, granted people have been shot by 22's and kept moving, but your typical attacker isn't going to have that much of a reason to keep coming, and it really doesnt take that much time to get off more than one shot center mass.

 

[Ika]

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Rule #1: Have a gun

While no one makes a .22LR self-defense round, due to liability reasons I'm sure, it'll kill someone. And a .22LR in your pocket is a hell of a lot better than a .45 left at home.

Granted this is for carry, for home defense, you can do better

huh?! .22 self defsense round carrys too much liabilty@?!?!?!

explain pls as how a smaller round can have more liability than a 9mm?

I think what he's saying is that if a manufacturer makes a .22 self-defense round and it does NOT stop an assault, then the manufacturer is liable.

 

[Rock Hydra]

Probably a super soaker.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: CadetLee

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Rule #1: Have a gun

While no one makes a .22LR self-defense round, due to liability reasons I'm sure, it'll kill someone. And a .22LR in your pocket is a hell of a lot better than a .45 left at home.

Granted this is for carry, for home defense, you can do better

huh?! .22 self defsense round carrys too much liabilty@?!?!?!

explain pls as how a smaller round can have more liability than a 9mm?

Injured/maimed: Lawsuit
Dead: No lawsuit

oh, didnt think of that :Q

now leaning towards 9mm hollow points since that's the next size up for autmatics... just need to find a cheap source for 9mm fmj for target practice.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Originally posted by: Aflac

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Rule #1: Have a gun

While no one makes a .22LR self-defense round, due to liability reasons I'm sure, it'll kill someone. And a .22LR in your pocket is a hell of a lot better than a .45 left at home.

Granted this is for carry, for home defense, you can do better

huh?! .22 self defsense round carrys too much liabilty@?!?!?!

explain pls as how a smaller round can have more liability than a 9mm?

I think what he's saying is that if a manufacturer makes a .22 self-defense round and it does NOT stop an assault, then the manufacturer is liable.

Yeah, potentially a buyer could claim that his self-defense round didn't work...

Dur. So you don't see them claimed as such.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: CadetLee

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
Rule #1: Have a gun

While no one makes a .22LR self-defense round, due to liability reasons I'm sure, it'll kill someone. And a .22LR in your pocket is a hell of a lot better than a .45 left at home.

Granted this is for carry, for home defense, you can do better

huh?! .22 self defsense round carrys too much liabilty@?!?!?!

explain pls as how a smaller round can have more liability than a 9mm?

Injured/maimed: Lawsuit
Dead: No lawsuit

oh, didnt think of that :Q

now leaning towards 9mm hollow points... just need to find a cheap source for 9mm fmj for target practice.

Target practice is fine, but if you carry, be sure to practice and be very familiar with the round you will be carrying.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: pontifex
you've been making a lot of gun threads altely Jedi. You thinking about getting one or what?

thinking about it.. i like target practice at the range, but the ferengi in me hates paying anywhere close to $10 per box.

the .22 is $1 per box. that got my lobes perked.

but the 2nd part for me in owning a gun is self defense (street + home).

if a .22 has a hard time penetrating a puffy down ski jacket at 20feet, then it's close to useless for self defense.

looking for the optimum in price/performance bullet in an automatic.

automatic because i rather have 15 shots than the 6 in a revolver. in a combat situation, my acuracury will probably drop DRASTICALLY as compared to a range.

edit:
I rather have too many bullets than come up 1 short

A 22LR will penetrate a second chance vest. What everyone here is talking about is stopping power. In other words, how much damage the bullet does when it hits someone. A 22 will often as not go right through a person, leaving a small hole in them. A 44 on the other hand will go through as well but since it has a high velocity shock wave, it will make a very large hole, and impart a great deal of it?s energy into the victim

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: pontifex
you've been making a lot of gun threads altely Jedi. You thinking about getting one or what?

thinking about it.. i like target practice at the range, but the ferengi in me hates paying anywhere close to $10 per box.

the .22 is $1 per box. that got my lobes perked.

but the 2nd part for me in owning a gun is self defense (street + home).

if a .22 has a hard time penetrating a puffy down ski jacket at 20feet, then it's close to useless for self defense.

looking for the optimum in price/performance bullet in an automatic.

automatic because i rather have 15 shots than the 6 in a revolver. in a combat situation, my acuracury will probably drop DRASTICALLY as compared to a range.

edit:
I rather have too many bullets than come up 1 short

A 22LR will penetrate a second chance vest. What everyone here is talking about is stopping power. In other words, how much damage the bullet does when it hits someone. A 22 will often as not go right through a person, leaving a small hole in them. A 44 on the other hand will go through as well but since it has a high velocity shock wave, it will make a very large hole, and impart a great deal of it?s energy into the victim

It also depends on which firearm the bullet was fired from - I've seen a vest stop a .40 from a handgun. The same vest was penetrated by a 9mm carbine. Longer barrel, more velocity..bingo.

 

[GarlicBreath]

9mm. Practice ammo can be had for around $.15 per round, or less. 1000 rounds of practice ammo, 100 rounds of self-defense ammo with which to prove out your gun, and 25-50 for carrying, and you're good to go.

check here:

http://www.ammoman.com/index.htm

http://www.dansammo.com/ammo.asp

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/browse/browse.asp?c=95&s=959

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/9mm.html

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: pontifex
you've been making a lot of gun threads altely Jedi. You thinking about getting one or what?

thinking about it.. i like target practice at the range, but the ferengi in me hates paying anywhere close to $10 per box.

the .22 is $1 per box. that got my lobes perked.

but the 2nd part for me in owning a gun is self defense (street + home).

if a .22 has a hard time penetrating a puffy down ski jacket at 20feet, then it's close to useless for self defense.

looking for the optimum in price/performance bullet in an automatic.

automatic because i rather have 15 shots than the 6 in a revolver. in a combat situation, my acuracury will probably drop DRASTICALLY as compared to a range.

edit:
I rather have too many bullets than come up 1 short

A 22LR will penetrate a second chance vest. What everyone here is talking about is stopping power. In other words, how much damage the bullet does when it hits someone. A 22 will often as not go right through a person, leaving a small hole in them. A 44 on the other hand will go through as well but since it has a high velocity shock wave, it will make a very large hole, and impart a great deal of it?s energy into the victim

um.. didnt second chance face class action lawsuit because their vests failed to work as advertised? (ie: stop bullets)

btw- with the gun control law lapsing, how many rounds can i legally have in a clip now?

and whats the next size up to a 15round clip for a .22?

 

[MegaVovaN]

check this out.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: JEDI

Originally posted by: pontifex
you've been making a lot of gun threads altely Jedi. You thinking about getting one or what?

thinking about it.. i like target practice at the range, but the ferengi in me hates paying anywhere close to $10 per box.

the .22 is $1 per box. that got my lobes perked.

but the 2nd part for me in owning a gun is self defense (street + home).

if a .22 has a hard time penetrating a puffy down ski jacket at 20feet, then it's close to useless for self defense.

looking for the optimum in price/performance bullet in an automatic.

automatic because i rather have 15 shots than the 6 in a revolver. in a combat situation, my acuracury will probably drop DRASTICALLY as compared to a range.

edit:
I rather have too many bullets than come up 1 short

A 22LR will penetrate a second chance vest. What everyone here is talking about is stopping power. In other words, how much damage the bullet does when it hits someone. A 22 will often as not go right through a person, leaving a small hole in them. A 44 on the other hand will go through as well but since it has a high velocity shock wave, it will make a very large hole, and impart a great deal of it?s energy into the victim

um.. didnt second chance face class action lawsuit because their vests failed to work as advertised? (ie: stop bullets)

btw- with the gun control law lapsing, how many rounds can i legally have in a clip now?

Varies per state law. There is no federal restriction.

and whats the next size up to a 15round clip for a .22?

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: boredhokie
I thought for home defense a shotgun was best? You don't have to aim as carefully and you're less likely to punch a hole through the wall and kill a bystander. Why would you want a handgun in this situation?

Because a handgun is small and lightweight, less recoil, less hassle and depending on caliber plenty of stopping power.

I still insist that a .22LR is more deadly than people realize. At close range and center mass without access to immediate medical attention you'll have issues.

<-----works at a Trauma hospital....

Only problem is that it's not going to penetrate much and can easily be deflected by bone (making a heart shot less likely to succeed). I know for a fact that a .22 (even a high velocity one) won't penetrate a hard drive casing, for instance, and multiple layers of clothing topped with a leather jacket might give one problems.

Can it be lethal? Of course. Is a 9mm more lethal? Amazingly so with the right ammo.

I use a 9mm Steyr M1 with Federal HydraShoks. Extremely unlikely someone is going to survive a center mass shot with one of those.

 

[TraumaRN]

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: boredhokie
I thought for home defense a shotgun was best? You don't have to aim as carefully and you're less likely to punch a hole through the wall and kill a bystander. Why would you want a handgun in this situation?

Because a handgun is small and lightweight, less recoil, less hassle and depending on caliber plenty of stopping power.

I still insist that a .22LR is more deadly than people realize. At close range and center mass without access to immediate medical attention you'll have issues.

<-----works at a Trauma hospital....

Only problem is that it's not going to penetrate much and can easily be deflected by bone (making a heart shot less likely to succeed). I know for a fact that a .22 (even a high velocity one) won't penetrate a hard drive casing, for instance, and multiple layers of clothing topped with a leather jacket might give one problems.

Can it be lethal? Of course. Is a 9mm more lethal? Amazingly so with the right ammo.

I use a 9mm Steyr M1 with Federal HydraShoks. Extremely unlikely someone is going to survive a center mass shot with one of those.

Oh I know that dont get me wrong. I'm not saying it's more powerful than <insert caliber>

But most of our GSW patients are close range generally <15 feet. Saw a young guy last week, hit with a .22 pistol from about 5 feet. Blew out half of his wrist, nearly lost his hand.

But GSWs are such finicky things. I've seen someone take a 9mm center mass and be released 2 days later, no major organs hit, only lost enough blood to warrent 1 unit of PRBCs. Heck I've seen a guy take 12 gauge 00 Buckshot from 10 feet away to the abdomen......and live. Took marathon surgery and somewhere in the order of 50+ units of blood and plasma. But he lived.

Conversely. Seen someone take a .22 to the chest, live make it all the way to the floor then code on the floor and die. It happens.

 

[mercanucaribe]

How many of you people saying a .22 is ineffective have actually shot someone? Everyone's a freaking armchair Dirty Harry!
I'll bet that a few small bullets will hurt enough to prevent someone from stabbing me.

As far as the whole killing thing goes.. I'd rather not have someone's death on my conscience, regardless of whether he was trying to kill me, steal my lunch money, or whatever. I'm not about to hand out death sentences to strung out druggies or thieves who have no intent to kill.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
How many of you people saying a .22 is ineffective have actually shot someone? Everyone's a freaking armchair Dirty Harry!
I'll bet that a few small bullets will hurt enough to prevent someone from stabbing me.

You go ahead and bet on that if you like. It's your life, not mine.

As far as the whole killing thing goes.. I'd rather not have someone's death on my conscience, regardless of whether he was trying to kill me, steal my lunch money, or whatever. I'm not about to hand out death sentences to strung out druggies or thieves who have no intent to kill.

The main object is to stop the attack immediately. A .22 will kill someone just as dead as a .45, but as I stated earlier, your *immediate* stopping power isn't there.

Let me ask you this -- if a .22lr is such an effective round, why do so many law enforcement agencies use either .40 or .45?

 

[Kenazo]

I shot a skunk that still kept coming at me after 4 or 5 hits from a 22. I sure as heck wouldn't trust it to stop some guy after me.

 

[FoBoT]

12 GA shotgun , pump action is good

 

[Dean]

A 22 would be fine for defence most of the time. Only thing with 22LR is the semi's are prone to jam.

 

[adairusmc]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
How many of you people saying a .22 is ineffective have actually shot someone? Everyone's a freaking armchair Dirty Harry!
I'll bet that a few small bullets will hurt enough to prevent someone from stabbing me.

As far as the whole killing thing goes.. I'd rather not have someone's death on my conscience, regardless of whether he was trying to kill me, steal my lunch money, or whatever. I'm not about to hand out death sentences to strung out druggies or thieves who have no intent to kill.

ALWAYS aim to kill when using a firearm in self defence. Dead men tell no lies in court. Two in the chest, and one in the head is the way it should always be.

If someone threatens me to the point I am in fear for my life, I am going to do everything in my power to kill them immediately, not pussy around with shooting them to "deter" them from the attack. My life in infinately more valuable then theirs.

And yes, a 22LR is very underpowered for self defence. I use a 10mm for concealed carry myself.