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Is Islam the Religion of Peace? Discuss...

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JohnOfSheffield said:
Well at least you believe in evolution and the real birth of the universe rather than creationism, that makes you a lot bigger in my book.
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man you gotta read what people write better! 🙂 cause I didn't say that. You're like my friend who hears what I say and then says "oh so you agree XYZ" and I'm like, haha, no, were you listening? Cause what I said is definitely not that" and he would keep saying "Oh so you agree" and I was like, no, I don't...
 
soccerballtux said:
I don't understand how God knowing what we did changes the idea that we had a choice to turn left or right, and that we chose left. Those seem compatible, especially when it's not "God looking forward" but rather "God looking into the 4th dimension from the 5th"
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Are you playing dumb?

If god knows ALL future, it's not about knowing what we did, it's about knowing all the choices that we'll make before we make them.

If god knows that tomorrow you will not brush your teeth, then tomorrow you can't brush your teeth, you don't have that choice because if you did and chose to brush your teeth then god would be wrong.

You might think you can choose to respond to me, but you can't, if god knows you won't you can't choose to respond to this post, if he knows you will, you have to, god is never wrong and knows all future.
 
soccerballtux said:
man you gotta read what people write better! 🙂 cause I didn't say that. You're like my friend who hears what I say and then says "oh so you agree XYZ" and I'm like, haha, no, were you listening? Cause what I said is definitely not that" and he would keep saying "Oh so you agree" and I was like, no, I don't...
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Sarcasm, look it up...
 
JohnOfSheffield said:
If everything is going to happen as it was intended to happen, then all choices are already made and thus, no free will exists for us in our lives, it was already made for us by god.
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But you're not explaining how God knowing whether we turn right or left means that we don't have the fullness of choice either way. I could at the last minute change my mind and go right, or change my mind and go left; I had the choice the whole time, the only thing is that he knew the outcome because from his perspective (5th dimension) it's happening right now.

At any rate, if God is infinite, it's likely there are bound to be at least SOME things that our non-omniscient minds with non-universal logic are capable of reconciling-- kinda like if you ask the question "can God make a square that is a circle as well"? Well, if you don't know the properties of squares and circles you might say yes, but if you did, you would recognize it's an invalid question.
 
religion and peace? Get real... I'm talking about all religions. Religion is the opposite of peace. It's been shown time and time again. Check your history books!
 
JohnOfSheffield said:
Are you playing dumb?

If god knows ALL future, it's not about knowing what we did, it's about knowing all the choices that we'll make before we make them.

If god knows that tomorrow you will not brush your teeth, then tomorrow you can't brush your teeth, you don't have that choice because if you did and chose to brush your teeth then god would be wrong.

You might think you can choose to respond to me, but you can't, if god knows you won't you can't choose to respond to this post, if he knows you will, you have to, god is never wrong and knows all future.
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but it's not the future, it's the present. Every moment of our lives is the "present" to him, since he is [at least] 5th dimensional.
 
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ericlp said:
religion and peace? Get real... I'm talking about all religions. Religion is the opposite of peace. It's been shown time and time again. Check your history books!
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if the champion of the religion says "peace" and the rest of the world interprets that "peace" as "war" (Christians with crusades, for example) does that say that Christianity is "war", or that the people who call themselves Christians, are "war"?
 
soccerballtux said:
JohnOfSheffield said:
Are you playing dumb?

If god knows ALL future, it's not about knowing what we did, it's about knowing all the choices that we'll make before we make them.

If god knows that tomorrow you will not brush your teeth, then tomorrow you can't brush your teeth, you don't have that choice because if you did and chose to brush your teeth then god would be wrong.

You might think you can choose to respond to me, but you can't, if god knows you won't you can't choose to respond to this post, if he knows you will, you have to, god is never wrong and knows all future.
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but it's not the future, it's the present. Every moment of our lives is the "present" to him, since he is [at least] 5th dimensional.
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put it to you this way, if I offered my child candy, does he still not have the choice to take it or not?

The only difference in these scenarios is how well you know the individual. If I know my child very poorly, I might not know that candy makes him puke and so he hates it. If I know him very well then I know this and he doesn't eat it. If I know him perfectly (I don't, because I'm not omniscient) then I know all the varying thoughts he will have regarding the candy, and know which of those thoughts are more valuable to him, and because of that, I know that he will/will not choose to eat it. But that doesn't change the fact that he still made the decision himself.

edit: yeah, I think I'm satisfied with this logic, combined with the 5th dimensional stuff...
 
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soccerballtux said:
put it to you this way, if I offered my child candy, does he still not have the choice to take it or not?
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God knows all future, if god knows that he won't take it, he has no choice but to refuse, if god knows that he will take it, he cannot refuse, he has no free will, god already knows his choice, god knew his choice a billion years ago.

So no, he has no choice, it was made for him before the beginning of time, that is, if god is omniscient (all knowing).

It doesn't really matter how you state it, if god knows the present then he's as powerful as me, if he doesn't know the future then he's a great historian at best, not an all powerful entity.

Do you believe in "gods plan"?
 
JohnOfSheffield said:
if god knows the present then he's as powerful as me, if he doesn't know the future then he's a great historian at best, not an all powerful entity.
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Our future is the present to him. I edited the post right before yours to add more clarity to the child argument. I appreciate your thoughts on the additions (2nd paragraph). I really don't see how the logic breaks down, and no I'm not trolling.

Do you believe in "gods plan"?
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no better way to do life, if the things he says about himself are true!!
 
soccerballtux said:
if the champion of the religion says "peace" and the rest of the world interprets that "peace" as "war" (Christians with crusades, for example) does that say that Christianity is "war", or that the people who call themselves Christians, are "war"?
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"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."

Straight from the horses mouth....
 
soccerballtux said:
Our future is the present to him. I edited the post right before yours to add more clarity to the child argument. I appreciate your thoughts on the additions (2nd paragraph). I really don't see how the logic breaks down, and no I'm not trolling.



no better way to do life, if the things he says about himself are true!!
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I don't think you are so dumb that you don't get this, i really don't, i think you are using a justification you don't yourself even understand and one that you have take right out of thin air to justify what is a direct contradiction.

If all is known and all is part of gods plan then there is no free will.

At least you are not trying to be a disciple of Jesus, that would be even worse...
 
JohnOfSheffield said:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."

Straight from the horses mouth....
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If both the man and the father were following God perfectly, then which of the things Jesus said would they have to get angry at each other for?
 
JohnOfSheffield said:
If all is known and all is part of gods plan then there is no free will.
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Put my child in a box. Remove me from the picture completely. Does the child make the same choice, or does he make a different choice than before?

Note: This is a completely controlled experiment. After every trial, we reset the neurons in the child's head to exactly as they were before, and exactly the same as when I know the outcome. Does he make the same decision, or a different decision?

Now bring me back into the equation. I know the values of the child perfectly. I know that he will choose the candy. How has anything in the decision making process for the child changed? It seems to me that he's still making the exact same choice in exactly the same fashion, whether or not I am there to "know" him or not.

At least you are not trying to be a disciple of Jesus, that would be even worse...
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but I am trying to be? Or perhaps this is sarcasm too! :X
 
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soccerballtux said:
Put my child in a box. Remove me from the picture completely. Does the child make the same choice, or does he make a different choice than before?

Note: This is a completely controlled experiment. After every trial, we reset the neurons in the child's head to exactly as they were before, and exactly the same as when I know the outcome. Does he make the same decision, or a different decision?

Now bring me back into the equation. I know the values of the child perfectly. I know that he will choose the candy. How has anything in the decision making process for the child changed? It seems to me that he's still making the exact same choice in exactly the same fashion, whether or not I am there to "know" him or not.
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Is it part of gods plan? If it is, it will happen, if it's not it will not, if gods plan includes your kid eating candy then he'll bloody well eat candy whether he likes it or not.



but I am trying to be? Or perhaps this is sarcasm too! :X
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You are TRYING to hate your father, mother, brother, sister, wife, children, even yourself?
 
JohnOfSheffield said:
soccerballtux said:
If both the man and the father were following God perfectly, then which of the things Jesus said would they have to get angry at each other for?
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Heh, the verse has nothing to do with that, don't you know your bible?
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well, to me there are 2 perspectives:
1. I have come to save people, and the people who follow me I am dividing from their old ways, and because of this, those that were a part of their old ways, are not going to like it and are going to fuss. I am not bringing peace to them.
-In this scenario, Jesus is not the source of hostility, the sin is. This is what I am getting at with my analogy-- if both the two are following God, then there is no sin to begin with, and thus, given the commandments of Jesus to "love your neighbor as yourself" there can't exist any hostility. As it stands, the one who doesn't follow Jesus, hates those that follow him. He said this would happen if we followed him, that the world would hate us, because it did not know him or understand him.
2. nevermind I think I'm wrong about this second idea. I go with the 1st.
 
JohnOfSheffield said:
Is it part of gods plan? If it is, it will happen, if it's not it will not, if gods plan includes your kid eating candy then he'll bloody well eat candy whether he likes it or not.
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And if you remove God from the picture, how does my kid's (btw I don't actually have a kid I just made that part up for analogy) decision to eat, or not eat the candy, change? Would he do it the same, or different, than before, if all other variables (besides God) are "control variables"? IE kid is in same mental state as he was when God was in the picture.




You are TRYING to hate your father, mother, brother, sister, wife, children, even yourself?
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But has Jesus told me to hate them? I thought he told me to love my neighbor, and respect my parents, and honor my mother and my father.
 
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soccerballtux said:
But has Jesus told me to hate them? I thought he told me to love my neighbor, and respect my parents, and honor my mother and my father.
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"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." -Jesus

So you have to at least TRY, right?
 
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