Is Islam the Religion of Peace? Discuss...

[JohnOfSheffield]

well, to me there are 2 perspectives:
1. I have come to save people, and the people who follow me I am dividing from their old ways, and because of this, those that were a part of their old ways, are not going to like it and are going to fuss. I am not bringing peace to them.
-In this scenario, Jesus is not the source of hostility, the sin is. This is what I am getting at with my analogy-- if both the two are following God, then there is no sin to begin with, and thus, given the commandments of Jesus to "love your neighbor as yourself" there can't exist any hostility. As it stands, the one who doesn't follow Jesus, hates those that follow him. He said this would happen if we followed him, that the world would hate us, because it did not know him or understand him.
2. nevermind I think I'm wrong about this second idea. I go with the 1st.

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

That's jesus himself telling you what a cock he is...

 

[soccerballtux]

"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." -Jesus

So you have to at least TRY, right?

Have you ever looked at the Greek word which gets translated as "hate" here?

 

[soccerballtux]

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

That's jesus himself telling you what a cock he is...

I disagree. That's him making the observation that when you follow his rule of unconditional surrender to God, some are going to hate you for it. If the bible is true, then at least some of them hate you because they are simply anti-God and do not like him. But, it's better that they hate you for doing something good, than doing something evil (such as crusading...or forcing your religious beliefs on atheists...these situations are obviously not what Jesus was referring to, because according to his teachings, those actions are wrong).

 

[spittledip]

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

That's jesus himself telling you what a cock he is...

I disagree. That's him making the observation that when you follow his rule of unconditional surrender to God, some are going to hate you for it. If the bible is true, then at least some of them hate you because they are simply anti-God and do not like him. But, it's better that they hate you for doing something good, than doing something evil (such as crusading...or forcing your religious beliefs on atheists...these situations are obviously not what Jesus was referring to, because according to his teachings, those actions are wrong).

SBT is right. We in fact, have JOS acting out this verse for us right here. The world is at war with God, and by default, they are at war with His followers.

 

[soccerballtux]

"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." -Jesus

So you have to at least TRY, right?

Have you ever looked at the Greek word which gets translated as "hate" here?

the word is miseo, which carries with it a comparative meaning which centers on moral choice, such as evaluating one over another. So, properly translated, it would read "If anyone comes to me, then compared to how much you're going to enjoy me, your love for your parents and children and wife and sisters will look like you detest them, because I'm that much better, that you can't help but be infinitely more satisfied with me than with them.

 

[soccerballtux]

"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

That's jesus himself telling you what a cock he is...

SBT is right. We in fact, have JOS acting out this verse for us right here. The world is at war with God, and by default, they are at war with His followers.

but do you notice how his tone has changed as I've tried to deal cheerfully with him to express my love for him [no homo fellas, not in a gay way, think of it more as "intense interest in his person and who he is as a fellow member of God's creation"]? I don't particularly feel he's hating me, maybe I'm deluded.

When you're at peace with who God is and the value we are to him (and that peace is available to all), these things just come naturally, they overflow out of you as you are being filled like a cup that you just keep pouring water into-- it can't help but overflow all over the table and down the sides and ruin the mahogany wood flooring.

When the world doesn't want Christians, a lot of the time it's because the Christians aren't exhibiting the love Jesus did. Because the love that Jesus exhibits makes you thirsty for more, you want to be the object of that unconditional attention, to be around people that are just happy to be with you.

My earlier posts where I was ranting on the Islam guy were me erroneously stepping out of that. Not exactly salty or savory, hmmm? So it is with the Christians that are like noisy gongs or clanging cymbols.

 

[spittledip]

sheffield has him by the balls , regardless of if you dont like him

if god can know what you will do before you do it then it is predetermined and there is no free will

If you twist the meaning of predetermination, you could say this is true in that the very act of creation is predetermination b/c of God's foreknowledge. However, God knowing what we are going to do is not the same as making us do it. It is a "passive predetermination" and is only such at a very basic, incomplete manner. It would be predetermination only if God grabbed our mind and programmed it to do everything we do. He didn't do that. He created us, knowing beforehand what we would do, and let us choose the course he knew we were going. If our will is free to choose, it doesn't matter what God or anyone else knows what our choice will be.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

SBT is right. We in fact, have JOS acting out this verse for us right here. The world is at war with God, and by default, they are at war with His followers.

Actually, that is EXACTLY what the Taliban are saying.

Don't think you get away with anything because you chalk it up to you doing gods work, you don't, that is my very point...

The interpretation YOU are using is not what the text actually says and it is NOT what others interpret it as.

Perhaps you are Catholic and not Evangelicals though because eveangelicals tend to be literalists.

 

[soccerballtux]

If you twist the meaning of predetermination, you could say this is true in that the very act of creation is predetermination b/c of God's foreknowledge. However, God knowing what we are going to do is not the same as making us do it. It is a "passive predetermination" and is only such at a very basic, incomplete manner. It would be predetermination only if God grabbed our mind and programmed it to do everything we do. He didn't do that. He created us, knowing beforehand what we would do, and let us choose the course he knew we were going. If our will is free to choose, it doesn't matter what God or anyone else knows what our choice will be.

yeah if you remove God we are still the same way and will make the same decisions.

 

[soccerballtux]

Actually, that is EXACTLY what the Taliban are saying.

Don't think you get away with anything because you chalk it up to you doing gods work, you don't, that is my very point...

yeah but the bible doesn't command christians, like the Qu'ran does muslims, to wage war on the unbelievers, or to extract a tax (Jizya) from them. That's why the bible is closer to the truth than the Qu'ran.

I believe Mohammed may have thought this [the verses JOS quoted earlier about hatred for your mother/brother/sister] is what Jesus was referring to (if you look at the origins of Islam and the time period, Mohammed was right on the fringes of where the Gospel had penetrated at that point: he probably heard a heretical, incomplete version of Christianity and built his understanding of God on that), and he took that and ran with it in the completely wrong direction. He feared God and was trying to please him, he was just EXTREMELY deluded as to the character of God.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

but do you notice how his tone has changed as I've tried to deal cheerfully with him to express my love for him [no homo fellas, not in a gay way, think of it more as "intense interest in his person and who he is as a fellow member of God's creation"]? I don't particularly feel he's hating me, maybe I'm deluded.

Son, i really don't care at all, i don't hate you, how could i? Why would i? I don't even know you and you have done nothing to me.

I hate the Taliban, i hate certain groups of Serbians, i hate people who shoot at me because... well, it's not a nice thing to do.

But you? nah, you'll live with your illusions until you cannot justify having them anymore or until you have changed everything the bible says into something that fits what you want to believe, the main point is... There is no such thing as a religion of peace, you might be a peaceful believer but the words literally says that your religion is anything but peaceful, it's the same with Islam or Hinduism or Judaism for that matter.

That said, i'm going to be gone for a few hours so... cheerio.

 

[spittledip]

but do you notice how his tone has changed as I've tried to deal cheerfully with him to express love? I don't particularly feel he's hating me, maybe I'm deluded.

When you're at peace with who God is and the value we are to him, these things just come naturally, they overflow out of you as you are being filled like a cup that you just keep pouring water into-- it can't help but overflow all over the table and down the sides and ruin the mahogany wood flooring.

When the world doesn't want Christians, a lot of the time it's because the Christians aren't exhibiting the love Jesus did. Because the love that Jesus exhibits makes you thirsty for more, you want to be the object of that unconditional love, to be around people that are just happy to be with you.

My earlier posts where I was ranting on the Islam guy were me erroneously stepping out of that. Not exactly salty or savory, hmmm? So it is with the Christians that are like noisy gongs or clanging cymbols.

I noticed he called Jesus a cock, and to me that is hateful and offensive and proved an interesting object lesson.

Kudos to you for your humility. Not sarcasm in case you were wondering.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

yeah but the bible doesn't command christians, like the Qu'ran does muslims, to wage war on the unbelievers, or to extract a tax (Jizya) from them. That's why the bible is closer to the truth than the Qu'ran.

It bloody well does, have you NEVER read it? Sure, if all words mean something else in your interpretation then ok, perhaps it doesn't for you...

"But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." - Jesus

 

[spittledip]

yeah but the bible doesn't command christians, like the Qu'ran does muslims, to wage war on the unbelievers, or to extract a tax (Jizya) from them. That's why the bible is closer to the truth than the Qu'ran.

Are there actually verses in the Koran that are not historical, that command Muslims to kill others who are not Muslim? It is one thing for there to be historical passages where the people were commandded to kill, but are there verses, that set up jihad as a part of a standard of living? The answer to this question really should settle whether or not Islam is peaceful or not. I ask b/c I do not know.

 

[soccerballtux]

I noticed he called Jesus a cock, and to me that is hateful and offensive and proved an interesting object lesson.

Kudos to you for your humility. Not sarcasm in case you were wondering.

meh, pride is just a misplacement of identity. When you KNOW in your spirit, not your head, how much God loves you, nothing else matters.

I'm in the transitional stages as you can see, swinging back and forth. When I finally "get" it permanently, I will no longer live in fear of my boss of being a slow learner at work, will no longer get giddy at the opportunity to slam a pro-Muslim liberal, because I will no longer need those things for identity. Until then...

Until then, we get confused into thinking we'll be more satisfied if we get our identity from being right and proving others wrong.

 

[soccerballtux]

It bloody well does, have you NEVER read it? Sure, if all words mean something else in your interpretation then ok, perhaps it doesn't for you...

"But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." - Jesus

and if you recall, he reprimanded them for thinking bluntly [puns are funs!]:

So they said, "Lord, look! Here are two swords." He answered them, "Enough of that!"

 

[spittledip]

It bloody well does, have you NEVER read it? Sure, if all words mean something else in your interpretation then ok, perhaps it doesn't for you...

"But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." - Jesus

You are only telling part of the story:

36And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

37"For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, '(AL)AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for (AM)that which refers to Me has its fulfillment."

38They said, "Lord, look, here are two (AN)swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."
...

48But Jesus said to him, "Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"

49When those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the (BA)sword?"

50And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear.

51But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him.
--------------

Jesus Himself said in the next verse, that you neglected to post, that the sword was to fulfill what was written about Him in prophesy. And then, a few verses later, He commands the disciples to not fight with the sword.

 

[soccerballtux]

Are there actually verses in the Koran that are not historical, that command Muslims to kill others who are not Muslim? It is one thing for there to be historical passages where the people were commandded to kill, but are there verses, that set up jihad as a part of a standard of living? The answer to this question really should settle whether or not Islam is peaceful or not. I ask b/c I do not know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya#Islamic_Law
I don't know if those are historical or religious or what. There's one or two verses that the guy in the book below gives as example that it commands waging war on the unbelievers.
Also, you can read the book "Islam: What every Christian should know" by Bassam M. Chadid. PhD educated Muslim that converted to Christianity, very informative book about the history, origins, etc. of Islam, and points out some of the inconsistencies in the Qu'ran. However, I think he was biased in his analysis.
My earlier posts about what the Qu'ran says about women and womens rights is pretty damming, IMO.

this is unimportant however. The true God-followers are simple deluded about who God is. They fear him, they just believe the wrong things about him, and as a result do wrong things, or write wrong things (such as the Qu'ran).

I was hung up on this for a very long time, until it was put to me like this:
"If I, as a buddhist, said to myself "hm...I know there must be a God that created all this...because it's too beautiful to have happened by chance...so I am going to sit on this mountain until this absolute Truth reveals itself to me", do you think God would leave that person hanging?
and second, if Jesus is the way, THE Truth, and the Life, and that person is deep down searching for "the real truth", then that person is no longer a buddhist, but a God-follower.

And why is this possible? Since Jesus said, "the fullness of the Father dwells in me", then even though "no one comes to the Father but through me", coming to and accepting all that the Father is, is the same as coming to Jesus, since the Father condones Jesus.

And so the salvation is not even related to our "knowledge" of Jesus, but rather whether or not we are inclined, or disinclined to God.
From there it just takes time until one is OK with the possibility that a real-God-fearing individual could be confused into following the Allah of the Qu'ran, because that's the only God he's heard of, and he knows there's a God, so he directs his God-attention to the God as portrayed in the Qu'ran.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

You do realize that Muslims have the same prophet as Christians and they see Jesus as a prophet. What are you going to do when in the end it's shown that Mohammad was truly the last prophet from God?

 

[soccerballtux]

You do realize that Muslims have the same prophet as Christians and they see Jesus as a prophet. What are you going to do when in the end it's shown that Mohammad was truly the last prophet from God?

Perhaps you are not aware of the verses that say Jesus was nothing more than a man?
And perhaps you are also not aware of the verses that say Jesus was the highest of all prophets, closest to God?

Yes, it says both of those.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Perhaps you are not aware of the verses that say Jesus was nothing more than a man?
And perhaps you are also not aware of the verses that say Jesus was the highest of all prophets, closest to God?

Yes, it says both of those.

Yes, I'm fully aware of those verses. However the Qu'ran was written last and has Muhammad as being the last prophet from God.

 

[soccerballtux]

Yes, I'm fully aware of those verses. However the Qu'ran was written last and has Muhammad as being the last prophet from God.

yeah, so which of those two verses he wrote is true?

Also, Jesus said none else but me.
Then Mohommed comes along and says "haha no wait guys actually, I'M the last one"....

right....
?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I don't know whether the Bible or the Qu'ran is the correct one to follow.

Both are claimed to be the word of God. Both have the same prophets and only differ when it comes to Jesus and Mohammad. So are both the word from the same God?

 

[soccerballtux]

I don't know whether the Bible or the Qu'ran is the correct one to follow.

Both are claimed to be the word of God. Both have the same prophets and only differ when it comes to Jesus and Mohammad. So are both the word from the same God?

dunno. do you think the Allah of the Qu'ran could think up something as beautiful as the female body, or the trees in fall, or the deliciousness of food, yet turn around tell his followers to make the non-followers convert or die after sending someone like Jesus? Do those seem like the same character? Which of those seems truthier?

Also, the bible doesn't ever claim to be the Word of God. The closest it gets is "inspired by/breathed out by God", which we Christians equated with being "the Word of God".
It was once the Word of God to someone, but is not the Word of God to your soul until God speaks it to your soul. In fact it could be a billboard that God speaks to your soul. The bible is scripture.

 

[JEDIYoda]

SBT is right. We in fact, have JOS acting out this verse for us right here. The world is at war with God, and by default, they are at war with His followers.

who are the followers of God?