Is Islam the Religion of Peace? Discuss...

[0roo0roo]

Sorry, to say it is the religion of peace is just orwelian.
It isn't even peaceful even when all the unbeliever are slayed or subjegated.

Fact is religion is just ideology + superstition. Not all ideologies are equal. Some are simply more defective than others. The life and construction of islamic ideologic is fundamnetally more flawed than other religions. Their prophet was a heinous example, someone who mixed state and military power with religion. Someone that bent the rules to fit his personal whims. Say what you will about others like jesus, but they didn't go around marrying children or their childrens wives. The koran is said to be direct from god as it gets, unchanged through time, its defects are permanent and unquestionable. Not like others which are clearly contested because they are the writings of multiple diciples. Even muslims will tell you that their religion is more an entire system of life than religion. It is cult like in its all encompassing nature.

The only peace religions like islam are really talking about is the peace that comes after all your enemies are subdued. and there are so many...and so many justifications for violence. I'm sorry, but if you were to make up a messed up religion, islam is pretty much how you would it. It's 2011, and the heinous sh*t all around the world being done because of that religion really is too much to ignore now. The excuses really have to stop. The old pc nonsense about all religions being the same in order to keep the peace by sticking your head in the sand has done nothing good.

It is always claimed it is just a small minority that make them look bad, but that is just wrong. Look at the folks cheering on the murder of the politician who was against blasphemy law in pakistan. No public shame there, it is an opinion that is so close to mainsteam that is what you get. People ignore large chunks of religions to become good people in a modern world. That is true for most religions. But when a religion is defective as islam is, ignoring what is there becomes rather difficult as we have seen. The justifications and vile commandments are just too clear and unquestionable.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

hm I haven't heard this before, which parts aren't fully translated?

Note that I'm not supporting the crusades, just pointing out why they started. Like all men, the men in power at that time were unable to walk in the footsteps of peace that Jesus taught.

It was collected scriptures that were thrown out, edited, put together and added to to create the modern bible, it has absolutely nothing to do with what Jesus said and none of it can even be verified to be correctly translated anymore.

Take it up with Paul, the most influential guy who "channeled" jesus like a gypsy woman at a fair. That is where the real fuckup started.

 

[soccerballtux]

hm I haven't heard this before, which parts aren't fully translated?

Note that I'm not supporting the crusades, just pointing out why they started. Like all men, the men in power at that time were unable to walk in the footsteps of peace that Jesus taught.

It was collected scriptures that were thrown out, edited, put together and added to to create the modern bible, it has absolutely nothing to do with what Jesus said and none of it can even be verified to be correctly translated anymore.

Take it up with Paul, the most influential guy who "channeled" jesus like a gypsy woman at a fair. That is where the real fuckup started.

Paul-- huh?

Bible-- right, it's scriptures, not the Word of God. John 1 tells us who the Word of God is, Jesus. We Christians have gone wrong in equating the two-- the implanted Word [capital W] of God, which is able to save our souls, and the word [lower case w] of God, that which was spoken by God and written down as scripture, or spoken by God to someone else and not to you. This is why you could make an atheist memorize bible verses all day long and it would do him no good-- it takes God speaking directly to our corrupt soul to change us, and he can do this with anything, doesn't have to be Scriptures. It's just that it happens more frequently with scriptures since they were once God's Word to somebody. Much wrong has befallen the world because Christians made this mistake. However, that is not a valid excuse-- God's invisible attributes, namely his divine power and eternal Godhead, have been clearly seen since the beginning of time, so that all are without excuse when they stand (rather, it will be a fully voluntarily kneel because his in his presence his veracity is self-evident) before him.

Regardless, the Bible we have today is the Bible God wants us to have. If God is God, then it has been no problem for him to keep it in tact. If there is no God, then none of this matters and we can believe what we want.

However, if God is not God, and none of this matters, then why do atheists hate Christians so much? If there is no final judgement at the end of the day, they have no reason to be angry with people who choose to believe one way or another, because after all, none of it matters, for we return to dust at death.

 

[bfdd]

well it's simple why many atheists hate Christians and other religions. These religions have been trying to force their view on the world for years. Atheists who want to force their view on others take offense to that. I personally don't give a fuck. I think organized religion is for the weak minded and weak willed, but if it is not abused it can help these people deal with their day to day lives.

 

[soccerballtux]

well it's simple why many atheists hate Christians and other religions. These religions have been trying to force their view on the world for years. Atheists who want to force their view on others take offense to that. I personally don't give a fuck. I think organized religion is for the weak minded and weak willed, but if it is not abused it can help these people deal with their day to day lives.

yeah but if there's no God it doesn't matter that the Christians want to force their God on them.

Jesus was clear that the poor in spirit were blessed, for theirs is the kingdom of God.
The rich in spirit ("strong minded and strong willed") think they have no need of God, but that's just because they don't recognize that the spirit that enables them to be the strong person who they are, was given to them by God in the first place. Their pride is their souls reaction* to this truth.

*Reaction--It's a reaction in the same way that you overstep your boundaries when you feel someone steps on your toes-- an example of this would be a guy insulting you, so you beat him up. Your core person felt threatened, so you "react" and overstep your boundaries to convince yourself that what he said is not true. In reality the only one you can get your core personhood from is God, because God is infinitely trustworthy. If you have your identity solely in yourself, you'll always have to overreact at some times, because you know that your self is not infinitely trustworthy, and could always screw up. If not by mistaken then by old age.

 

[bfdd]

yeah but if there's no God it doesn't matter that the Christians want to force their God on them.

no, it does matter because if there is no God then scientifically everything you believe in is fucking false and has no place in the modern world. It should be thrown out like the world be flat or the center of the universe. Not to mention trying to force your views or ideals on someone else is literally like the most douchie thing you can do.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Pacifist religions are the religions of peace.
Examples: Quakers, Jainism

I believe Islam qualifies to be one of the religions of "pieces."

 

[bfdd]

yeah but if there's no God it doesn't matter that the Christians want to force their God on them.

Jesus was clear that the poor in spirit were blessed, for theirs is the kingdom of God.
The rich in spirit think they have no need of God, but that's just because they don't recognize that the spirit that enables them to be the strong person who they are, was given to them by God in the first place.

Who gave my spirit to God to give to me? You believe that shit, I don't. I believe my parents fucked and some cells split, then my brain was created and I eventually intellectually evolved into the idiot I am today. Mine has a more solid footing in reality than yours does.

 

[soccerballtux]

no, it does matter because if there is no God then scientifically everything you believe in is fucking false and has no place in the modern world. It should be thrown out like the world be flat or the center of the universe. Not to mention trying to force your views or ideals on someone else is literally like the most douchie thing you can do.

yeah but that doesn't matter at the end of the day, we all just die. No real reason not to if it makes me happy. Just like there's no real reason not to kill Christians if it makes one happy.

 

[soccerballtux]

Who gave my spirit to God to give to me? You believe that shit, I don't. I believe my parents fucked and some cells split, then my brain was created and I eventually intellectually evolved into the idiot I am today. Mine has a more solid footing in reality than yours does.

If yours is right, then neither matters. If mine is right, then you are misunderstanding something about God, because God is always right.
That's why everything comes down to what you BELIEVE.
Some people choose to believe that the, as we observe it, non-omnipowerful universe created itself out of nothing, and that the 2nd law of thermodynamics was suspended for the billions of years it took to evolve sentient life.
Others choose to believe an omni-powerful God created the universe.
Both require belief, because none of us were there at the beginning of either of these situations. I mean there's always the possibility that the fact that the universe is expanding is due to the "throwing of the stars out" that the Bible says God did. And we'll never know for certain, until we're dead, at which point we either won't know cause we'll cease to exist, or we will know.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Paul-- huh?

Bible-- right, it's scriptures, not the Word of God. John 1 tells us who the Word of God is, Jesus. We Christians have gone wrong in equating the two-- the implanted Word [capital W] of God, which is able to save our souls, and the word [lower case w] of God, that which was spoken by God and written down as scripture, or spoken by God to someone else and not to you. This is why you could make an atheist memorize bible verses all day long and it would do him no good-- it takes God speaking directly to our corrupt soul to change us, and he can do this with anything, doesn't have to be Scriptures. It's just that it happens more frequently with scriptures since they were once God's Word to somebody. Much wrong has befallen the world because Christians made this mistake. However, that is not a valid excuse-- God's invisible attributes, namely his divine power and eternal Godhead, have been clearly seen since the beginning of time, so that all are without excuse when they stand (rather, it will be a fully voluntarily kneel because his in his presence his veracity is self-evident) before him.

Regardless, the Bible we have today is the Bible God wants us to have. If God is God, then it has been no problem for him to keep it in tact. If there is no God, then none of this matters and we can believe what we want.

However, if God is not God, and none of this matters, then why do atheists hate Christians so much? If there is no final judgement at the end of the day, they have no reason to be angry with people who choose to believe one way or another, because after all, none of it matters, for we return to dust at death.

If god is god he could just instruct everyone without the need for any scripture, fuck, he could just make people do whatever he wanted, it's not like free will and omniscience are compatible concepts anyway...

Truth is, the bible is nothing like what it's original form was, it's been edited, added to, translated, added too and taken out, edited again and translated, edited again and removed from, edited again and translated again to make KJV.

ALL of the editors of the bible worked under governments who wanted to use the faith to control the population and they all did so, yet you think they didn't add anything of their own?

What you are saying is akin to saying that the Koran is what God intended for you to have as his words since he lets people think it's the words of god... Mohammed was, after all, just like Paul a man who had "visions of gods words"...

Funny how that works in religion, isn't it? Almost like they stole it from some other religion...

This thread is now off track, we can continue to discuss this if you want but i don't think it's neccessary, i've said what i wanted to say by now.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

If yours is right, then neither matters. If mine is right, then you are misunderstanding something about God, because God is always right.
That's why everything comes down to what you BELIEVE.
Some people choose to believe that the, as we observe it, non-omnipowerful universe created itself out of nothing, and that the 2nd law of thermodynamics was suspended for the billions of years it took to evolve sentient life.
Others choose to believe an omni-powerful God created the universe.
Both require belief, because none of us were there at the beginning of either of these situations. I mean there's always the possibility that the fact that the universe is expanding is due to the "throwing of the stars out" that the Bible says God did. And we'll never know for certain, until we're dead, at which point we either won't know cause we'll cease to exist, or we will know.

His is right, after all, that you were fucked into existance isn't something normal human beings argue with these days, or even 4000 years ago.

 

[soccerballtux]

If god is god he could just instruct everyone without the need for any scripture, fuck, he could just make people do whatever he wanted, it's not like free will and omniscience are compatible concepts anyway...

what good would that do him?

 

[soccerballtux]

His is right, after all, that you were fucked into existance isn't something normal human beings argue with these days, or even 4000 years ago.

who said I'm a normal human being? I certainly didn't.
I'm a child of God by adoption, and he is my Father.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

yeah but that doesn't matter at the end of the day, we all just die. No real reason not to if it makes me happy. Just like there's no real reason not to kill Christians if it makes one happy.

So basically you don't give a shit about life, you just hang around doing shit for the sake of god until you die and get your reward?

Well, for me it matters what happens in the only life i have, religion stands in the way of making THIS, the ONLY world we all can agree on that we have better.

See, i don't hate God, i really don't give a fuck about god, i hate his fan clubs, they are annoying me, they want my life to change here on earth so they can get a better chance of making it into a good afterlife?

Even if there IS a god of abraham, i'm one of the chosen people, i can do whatever the fuck i want.

 

[soccerballtux]

it's not like free will and omniscience are compatible concepts anyway...

if God is infinite, then perhaps they are compatible in a higher plane of existence and we just don't understand it because we don't see it from that plane of existence like he does.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

what good would that do him?

Well, he IS omniscient, so he already knows everything that will happen, those who don't believe CANNOT believe if he knows they won't, only God could change that, no free will exists since no one can make a choice against what god already knows. All future is predestined or God isn't omniscient.

Now, if you take that into account, using omnipotence to help someone who cannot make any other choice than the choice god knew a billion years ago that that person would eventually make would be the non evil solution to the lack of free will that gods omniscience brings.

 

[soccerballtux]

So basically you don't give a shit about life, you just hang around doing shit for the sake of god until you die and get your reward?

Did I say that?

I do the shit God says because I believe that in his infinite love he would never tell me to do anything that's bad for me. Further, he would only tell me NOT to do certain things if they were bad for me. And, since I believe he made it all including humanity, then it makes sense that he knows better than I. So far I have not been wrong and I am much more happy now than I've ever been back when I trusted and believed him less.

 

[peonyu]

Whats the standard here for deciding if a Religion is peaceful or violent ?

As far as I can tell there isnt one. BUT we can compare Religions to each other.

Buddhism - How many Terrorist groups are there that kill in the name of Buddha ?

How many people have they killed within the last 10 years ?

Hardly any.

Christianity, same deal.

Judiasm, same deal.

Hardly anyone killed purely in the name of those Religions recently...



Then there is Islam. Lol, do I even need to go there ? I can feel the Islamic apologists fuming already. Islam IS a violent religion. Period. It most definately is a violent Religion when you compare it to other Religions. And unfortunately for Islamic apologists, the only comparison CAN be to other religions.

Religion, unlike Race, can be stereotyped as it is written text that can be scrutinized page by page. The Aztecs as we all know, had a violent Religion...Anyone disagree with that [I doubt it].

As far as Recent Muslim actions of "Peace" go, here we go!!
*Recent bombing in Egypt that killed 22 Egyptian Christians. Check.
*Constant harassment of Christians in Pakistan, Indonesia, Iraq [70+ Christians massacred there recently aswell], Iran, Nigeria, Sudan. Turkey also has had its Christian community nearly wiped out due to Islamic hatred.
*Indonesia - Christian girls are commonly kidnapped, raped and beheaded. For not being Muslim - ie - unclean in the eyes of Islam.
*Phillipines - Active Muslim Terrorist groups present. They kill plenty of people each year.
* Al-Queada. Nuff said.
*Egypt - The Muslim Brotherhood. Responsible for most killings of Christians there, very active.
*Sudan. Islamic Republic. Killed 1.5 Million Christians within the last 15 years in Southern Sudan.
*Nigeria - Northern part of country is a hotbed for Sharia Law and is trying to force Southern Nigeria to become Islamic by the sword. Hence massive riots there and rampant Muslim on Christian violence.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg.

As far as Buddhism goes...I know of 0 Terrorist groups from them. And 0 Buddhist killings within the past 20 years. Same goes for Christians [KKK does not count, nor does the unabomber]. There are no active Christian terrorist groups anymore. Judiam, 0. Shinto, 0.

 

[soccerballtux]

Well, he IS omniscient, so he already knows everything that will happen, those who don't believe CANNOT believe if he knows they won't, only God could change that, no free will exists since no one can make a choice against what god already knows. All future is predestined or God isn't omniscient.

Now, if you take that into account, using omnipotence to help someone who cannot make any other choice than the choice god knew a billion years ago that that person would eventually make would be the non evil solution to the lack of free will that gods omniscience brings.

No you're looking at it wrong, God's in at least the 5th dimension, viewing us like we view a cartoon. Time is a construct he created. From his perspective, everything that was going to happen happens-- all instants in an instant.

At any rate, it still wouldn't do God any good to make us all do what he wants.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

if God is infinite, then perhaps they are compatible in a higher plane of existence and we just don't understand it because we don't see it from that plane of existence like he does.

No, if i can't be wrong and i know that you will take a right turn then you cannot choose to take a left turn, you have no free will.

The concept is a man made concept, free will applies to mankind out of our own interpretation, nothing else.

It would work if you claimed that we are all our own gods and our future is ours to create, but that would be a humanist answer.

 

[soccerballtux]

Whats the standard here for deciding if a Religion is peaceful or violent ?

As far as I can tell there isnt one. BUT we can compare Religions to each other.

Buddhism - How many Terrorist groups are there that kill in the name of Buddha ?

How many people have they killed within the last 10 years ?

Hardly any.

Christianity, same deal.

Judiasm, same deal.

Hardly anyone killed purely in the name of those Religions recently...



Then there is Islam. Lol, do I even need to go there ? I can feel the Islamic apologists fuming already. Islam IS a violent religion. Period. It most definately is a violent Religion when you compare it to other Religions and unfortunately for Islamic apologists, the only comparison CAN be to other religions.

Religion, unlike Race, can be stereotyped as it is written text that can be scrutinized page by page. The Aztecs as we all know, had a violent Religion...Anyone disagree with that [I doubt it].

As far as Recent Muslim actions of "Peace" go, here we go!!
*Recent bombing in Egypt that killed 22 Egyptian Christians. Check.
*Constant harassment of Christians in Pakistan, Indonesia, Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, Sudan [70+ Christians massacred there recently aswell]. Turkey also has had its Christian community nearly wiped out due to Islamic hatred.
*Indonesia - Christian girls are commonly kidnapped, raped and beheaded. For not being Muslim - ie - unclean in the eyes of Islam.
*Phillipines - Active Muslim Terrorist groups present. They kill plenty of people each year.
* Al-Queada. Nuff said.
*Egypt - The Muslim Brotherhood. Responsible for most killings of Christians there, very active.
*Sudan. Islamic Republic. Killed 1.5 Million Christians within the last 15 years in Southern Sudan.
*Nigeria - Northern part of country is a hotbed for Sharia Law and is trying to force Southern Nigeria to become Islamic by the sword. Hence massive riots there and rampant of Muslim - Christian violence.

Thats just the tip of the iceberg.

As far as Buddhism goes...I know of 0 Terrorist groups from them. And 0 Buddhist killings within the past 20 years. Same goes for Christians [KKK does not count, nor does the unabomber]. There are no active Christian terrorist groups anymore. Judiam, 0. Shinto, 0.

I would say that those who fear God are just wrong to varying degrees about who he is. especially some Christians, especially Muslims (their religious texts misguide them on what his character is like), etc. Buddhists seem to understand that God is very closely related to peace, as Jesus said ("The kingdom of heaven is righteousness, PEACE, and joy"). The muslims are wrong because "the anger of man does not produce the righteousness that God requires", hence why their religious wars don't do anybody any good.

 

[soccerballtux]

No, if i can't be wrong and i know that you will take a right turn then you cannot choose to take a left turn, you have no free will.

The concept is a man made concept, free will applies to mankind out of our own interpretation, nothing else.

It would work if you claimed that we are all our own gods and our future is ours to create, but that would be a humanist answer.

I don't understand how God knowing what we did changes the idea that we had a choice to turn left or right, and that we chose left. Those seem compatible, especially when it's not "God looking forward" but rather "God looking into the 4th dimension from the 5th"

edit: yeah I've thought about this one a lot and they have actually come to seem more compatible to me the more I've thought about it-- not less.

Christians confuse "predestination" with "free will" too. God chose some of us to be found him before time began, but that doesn't change the fact that the rest of our decisions that we make in this life are up to us. In fact the decision to follow God was never a decision we made in the first place-- we were already found to be in him (he set us aside before the foundation of the world), we just didn't know that yet.

 

[peonyu]

Yea well, if the Christian god says love everyone and the Muslim god says kill him since hes not a Muslim and wont convert...Id say the Muslim god is more violent. That sums up my post anyways since it boils down to that as far as Islam and Christianity go.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

No you're looking at it wrong, God's in at least the 5th dimension, viewing us like we view a cartoon. Time is a construct he created. From his perspective, everything that was going to happen happens-- all instants in an instant.

At any rate, it still wouldn't do God any good to make us all do what he wants.

If everything is going to happen as it was intended to happen, then all choices are already made and thus, no free will exists for us in our lives, it was already made for us by god.

No matter how you twist your superstitions you have to realise that free will is our concept here on earth and that god specifically told HUMANS that they have free will, if we do, god isn't omniscient, he doesn't know anything more than we do about the future.

I think it's funny that God created time so it is affected by gravity and speed.

Well at least you believe in evolution and the real birth of the universe rather than creationism, that makes you a lot bigger in my book.