Is being a Vegan unnatural?

[bhanson]

Originally posted by: Legend

Originally posted by: bhanson
I can digest my non-meat products quicker than meat which means more energy for me to do the things I really enjoy. (and less sleep is needed too.)

I'm not sure what you've getting at.

If anything, one of the big issues with the American diet is that things are digested too quickly. High GI carbs are a problem.

If you're gettinga t whey absorbing faster, then you may be correct.

If you're getting at eating meat, and meat alone will clog up your digestive system, then yes it will. But eating wild range beef/salmon/chicken along with fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and nuts will do just fine in your digestive system. The meat will give you high quality, complete proteins without promoting estrogen, B vitamins, omega 3 fats, etc.

Saying all meat, or any meat in any diet is unhealthy is incorrect.

I guess I was not very clear. What I meant was that my body does not seem to expend as much energy digesting my vegetarian diet as it did my omnivore diet. Since I have switched I have noticed a boost in energy and I don't seem to need as much sleep.

Saying that, it could just be me being more diet conscious.

 

[tranceport]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: tranceport
I asked my wife, who is vegan, if the bolded statement was true. She says no. Cholestrol.

That's like asking a Judeo-Christian if God exists.

She says you can prove cholestrol. You can't prove god.

Cholestrol is a scientific fact..







Sigh.. I shoulda kept my mouth shut.. Damn you OP!!!

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: athithi
You are asking for evidence of "feeling"? You have no idea what you are talking about, do you? And you also seem to have a reluctance towards comprehension. Meat-eaters who think vegetarianism is stupid and unhealthy are expressing a sentiment that is typically associated with a psychological condition where the protagonist sees a need to defend an action or belief in such a manner as to construct an opponent even when there is none (e.g., unpatriotic Japanese sedan driver) - as happened in this thread. For some reason you insist on behaving like a scratched record and keep insisting that I said meat-eaters feel guilty about eating meat when in reality I am making the case for the exact opposite (that meat-eaters have nothing to feel guilty about).

I think you just ran out of arguments and are using a classic ploy of repeatedly posting non sequiturs to mask the vacuousness of your arguments. Sometimes, that actually works.

Non sequiturs? Putting words in your mouth?

Originally posted by: athithi
This is quite typical of a guilt-ridden, defensive mind-set. Your offensive defense only reveals your discomfort about your own eating habits.

^--this is the portion of your argument I object to. You're making conjecture about the feelings of meat eaters with no evidence, except this psychological construct bolded in the first quote block. I don't dispute that the phenomenon of guilt-ridden people constructing arguments to defend their position exists, but it's a logical fallacy to then assume that all people defending their position are guilt-ridden. When I called you on it, you backed down. It is true that you claimed that meat eaters have nothing to feel guilty about (true), but you also claimed that meat eaters are feeling guilty (see "...guilt-ridden, defensive mind-set" and "...discomfort about your own eating habits"). Not only are these two concepts far from polar opposites, in your original argument one point led to the other.
Meat eaters feel guilty -> But they don't have to.

You've backed away from your original premise, leaving your conclusion as a free-standing statement which makes as much sense as saying that I shouldn't feel "guilty" for the extinction of the dinosaurs. What's the point of saying that if I didn't feel guilty in the first place? Who's being vacuous?

If you weren't so condescending I wouldn't keep dragging this to the front of the thread..

 

[Legend]

Originally posted by: tranceport

Originally posted by: Legend
Probably not typical of early man. We didn't have a wide selection of different produce back then. It was survival.

However, I always have to supress myself from arguing when someone says that it's healthier, and then talks about how fast food is so unhealthy. As if all meat is that quality. High quality, free range/diet enhanced meat along with plenty of fruits, veggies, whole grains, nuts, fish, etc is the optimal diet, and much better than vegan.


Just for example, eating a bunch of soy products is not good for male hormones...

I asked my wife, who is vegan, if the bolded statement was true. She says no. Cholestrol.

Cholesterol is manufactured by your body when you consume saturated fats. Dietary cholesterol has almost no impact on your blood cholesterol. In fact, you need it to produce growth hormones.

The meats I talked about have much less saturated fat and has heart healthy omega 3 fats.


If she disagrees, then tell her to disagree with science:

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=104

 

[eits]

of course it's unnatural to be vegan. if it were natural, we'd get all of our amino acids from plants. the only plant that has all amino acids is soybean... and if you eat soy raw, you inhibit trypsin.

 

[eits]

organic ftw. herbivore ftl.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: tranceport

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: tranceport
I asked my wife, who is vegan, if the bolded statement was true. She says no. Cholestrol.

That's like asking a Judeo-Christian if God exists.

She says you can prove cholestrol. You can't prove god.

Cholestrol is a scientific fact..







Sigh.. I shoulda kept my mouth shut.. Damn you OP!!!

All cholesterol isn't necessarily bad, and the modest amount you get from a modest amount of lean meat in your diet can be easily controlled with the proper proportions of other types of foods.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: tranceport

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: tranceport
I asked my wife, who is vegan, if the bolded statement was true. She says no. Cholestrol.

That's like asking a Judeo-Christian if God exists.

She says you can prove cholestrol. You can't prove god.

Cholestrol is a scientific fact..

But you need SOME cholesterol in your diet...

I dunno, I'm not a nutritionist (Not that it means much in some cases-scroll down to "Anyone can join"), but I generally eat what I like, including meat and (few) eggs, and last time my cholesterol was measured it was below the detection limit for that test, <150.

Nutrition and diet is hard to argue, though, because it's chock-full of false claims and quacks, even the experts can't always agree (plus they study different aspects of diets...a diet that may lower cholesterol will be bad for some other part of your body, which isn't studied), and finally it can vary quite a bit between different people. Some people really CAN'T give up meat...unless they're very, very careful, they just get sick. Others seem to have trouble digesting meat at all, even in smaller quantities.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: athithi
You are asking for evidence of "feeling"? You have no idea what you are talking about, do you? And you also seem to have a reluctance towards comprehension. Meat-eaters who think vegetarianism is stupid and unhealthy are expressing a sentiment that is typically associated with a psychological condition where the protagonist sees a need to defend an action or belief in such a manner as to construct an opponent even when there is none (e.g., unpatriotic Japanese sedan driver) - as happened in this thread. For some reason you insist on behaving like a scratched record and keep insisting that I said meat-eaters feel guilty about eating meat when in reality I am making the case for the exact opposite (that meat-eaters have nothing to feel guilty about).

I think you just ran out of arguments and are using a classic ploy of repeatedly posting non sequiturs to mask the vacuousness of your arguments. Sometimes, that actually works.

Non sequiturs? Putting words in your mouth?

Originally posted by: athithi
This is quite typical of a guilt-ridden, defensive mind-set. Your offensive defense only reveals your discomfort about your own eating habits.

^--this is the portion of your argument I object to. You're making conjecture about the feelings of meat eaters with no evidence, except this psychological construct bolded in the first quote block. I don't dispute that the phenomenon of guilt-ridden people constructing arguments to defend their position exists, but it's a logical fallacy to then assume that all people defending their position are guilt-ridden. When I called you on it, you backed down. It is true that you claimed that meat eaters have nothing to feel guilty about (true), but you also claimed that meat eaters are feeling guilty (see "...guilt-ridden, defensive mind-set" and "...discomfort about your own eating habits"). Not only are these two concepts far from polar opposites, in your original argument one point led to the other.
Meat eaters feel guilty -> But they don't have to.

You've backed away from your original premise, leaving your conclusion as a free-standing statement which makes as much sense as saying that I shouldn't feel "guilty" for the extinction of the dinosaurs. What's the point of saying that if I didn't feel guilty in the first place? Who's being vacuous?

If you weren't so condescending I wouldn't keep dragging this to the front of the thread..

So brave of you to break down the strawman you created :applause;

Meat eaters who call vegetarianism stupid and unhealthy feel guilty about their own diets -> But they don't have to.

I didn't back down from my arguments - I just kept breaking it down into smaller statements until you could finally process the information. Any more and I might have to start using monosyllables - either that or you just prefer to see ghosts where none exist.

Now I am beginning to wonder why you feel I am being condescending - did something I say strike too close? Are you sure you harbor no guilt about your own dietary habits?

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: athithi
Meat eaters who call vegetarianism stupid and unhealthy feel guilty about their own diets

Never mind. Obviously you like that assumption and you're sticking to it.
:beer:

Ironic sig BTW.

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: athithi
Meat eaters who call vegetarianism stupid and unhealthy feel guilty about their own diets

actually, that's not true. i'm 2 years away from being a doctor and know for a fact that vegetarianism isn't healthy. i mainly eat organic, so i don't feel guilty about my own diet whatsoever. organic omnivorism is the best, healthiest way to go.

 

[dighn]

Originally posted by: fitzov
Man is disposed to many things naturally, but that doesn't mean I should kidnap my neighbor's daughter and molest her.

good point. just because we started as herbivores, doesn't mean we must remain that way. I would consider drinking sweetened, carbonated liquid in place of water highly unnatural, but we all do it and people don't consider it wrong. heck we do a whole lot of "unnatural" things, does it really matter?

I'm no vegan though but I don't mind them either as long as they aren't militant about it.

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: athithi
Meat eaters who call vegetarianism stupid and unhealthy feel guilty about their own diets

actually, that's not true. i'm 2 years away from being a doctor and know for a fact that vegetarianism isn't healthy. i mainly eat organic, so i don't feel guilty about my own diet whatsoever. organic omnivorism is the best, healthiest way to go.

Fact huh? Can you provide some references doctor?

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: eits

Originally posted by: athithi
Meat eaters who call vegetarianism stupid and unhealthy feel guilty about their own diets

actually, that's not true. i'm 2 years away from being a doctor and know for a fact that vegetarianism isn't healthy. i mainly eat organic, so i don't feel guilty about my own diet whatsoever. organic omnivorism is the best, healthiest way to go.

My ancestors probably became vegetarians around a 1000 years back, if not earlier than that. My grandfathers died at ages 93 and 84, while one grandma died at 78 and the other is still around at 79. Most of my relatives of their generation have similar lifespans, with some who have crossed the 100 year mark. You may be 2 years away from becoming a doctor but you are lightyears away from understanding how vegetarianism is not just an individual choice but can become a healthy societal practice that sustains generations.

jagec:

Never mind. Obviously you like that assumption and you're sticking to it.

Ironic sig BTW.

I already stated in my very first post what I think about meat-eaters who are comfortable with their diets. You ignored it, selectively quoted me and pretended that you were raging against some grossly incorrect presumptions I was making. When I point this out, you lack the grace to accept that you had been debating an argument I never made (that all meat-eaters feel guilty).

I'm sorry I didn't live up to my sig and capitulate to your flawed arguments :roll:

 

[DougK62]

It is unnatural for humans to be herbivores. I can't believe this is even being contested. All signs point to humans being natural omnivores.

Can you be vegetarian/vegan and be healthy? Sure you can, but it's more difficult than having a good diet that involves meat.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: DougK62
It is unnatural for humans to be herbivores. I can't believe this is even being contested. All signs point to humans being natural omnivores.

Can you be vegetarian/vegan and be healthy? Sure you can, but it's more difficult than having a good diet that involves meat.

QFT
/thread

 

[SampSon]

Let vegans eat what they want. Meat is too good to pass up.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: tranceport
I asked my wife, who is vegan, if the bolded statement was true. She says no. Cholestrol.

Now ask her if cholesterol is inherently bad.

 

[oboeguy]

Originally posted by: DougK62
Can you be vegetarian/vegan and be healthy? Sure you can, but it's more difficult than having a good diet that involves meat.

I bet to differ. Raising an animal to slaughter for food is a lot harder (and more expensive by any measure) than making, say, tofu. To claim that it is harder to be veggie than to eat meat, then, then is merely stating societal conditions make it difficult. Living in NYC, at least, it's easy to be vegetarian.

 

[DougK62]

Originally posted by: oboeguy

Originally posted by: DougK62
Can you be vegetarian/vegan and be healthy? Sure you can, but it's more difficult than having a good diet that involves meat.

I bet to differ. Raising an animal to slaughter for food is a lot harder (and more expensive by any measure) than making, say, tofu. To claim that it is harder to be veggie than to eat meat, then, then is merely stating societal conditions make it difficult. Living in NYC, at least, it's easy to be vegetarian.

You misinterpret what I mean. I meant that it's harder in a dietary sense. Vegetarian/vegan people have to pay closer attention to what they're putting in their bodies because of the lack of meat. The only vegetarians/vegans that I know that I would consider "healthy" take supplements and really watch what they eat.

 

[athithi]

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: oboeguy

Originally posted by: DougK62
Can you be vegetarian/vegan and be healthy? Sure you can, but it's more difficult than having a good diet that involves meat.

I bet to differ. Raising an animal to slaughter for food is a lot harder (and more expensive by any measure) than making, say, tofu. To claim that it is harder to be veggie than to eat meat, then, then is merely stating societal conditions make it difficult. Living in NYC, at least, it's easy to be vegetarian.

You misinterpret what I mean. I meant that it's harder in a dietary sense. Vegetarian/vegan people have to pay closer attention to what they're putting in their bodies because of the lack of meat. The only vegetarians/vegans that I know that I would consider "healthy" take supplements and really watch what they eat.

It may be difficult to become a vegetarian (in terms of understanding how to structure your new diet to compensate for what is missing and needed from your old one). But once vegetarianism becomes your lifestyle, shopping for groceries and preparing your meal is no more or less difficult than it is for a meat-eater (in terms of taste and nutrition). It is a fallacy to think that meat provides some nutrients without which man would suffer or wither away - that is simply not true.

 

[OvErHeAtInG]

Originally posted by: Fraggable
I eat meat but not because I love meat. If mcdonald's had a burger make of some kind of matter that tasted good and had good texture, i'd eat it.

Me too. Unfortunately McDonald's only has burgers made of some kind of matter that doesn't taste good or have good texture... LOL

I'm perfectly happy with a salad, I eat meat out of convenience.

QFT: I eat much more healthily at home than out. I think the bottom line is, how do you feel after eating various things? Also the key is to know how to cook: if you don't know that, then healthy != tasty. Which is retarded. After you know how to cook nicely, there is simply good food and bad. healthy==tasty.

Edit: also I think the title of the thread is a little off--we have this superstition that something is natural (=superior) and something else isn't (=deviant). There's also this superstition that the food chain represents a pyramid of superiority with the animal eating the most other animals being the superior one. That's pretty silly I think--you don't have to eat sh!tloads of steak to be superior.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: athithi

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: oboeguy

Originally posted by: DougK62
Can you be vegetarian/vegan and be healthy? Sure you can, but it's more difficult than having a good diet that involves meat.

I bet to differ. Raising an animal to slaughter for food is a lot harder (and more expensive by any measure) than making, say, tofu. To claim that it is harder to be veggie than to eat meat, then, then is merely stating societal conditions make it difficult. Living in NYC, at least, it's easy to be vegetarian.

You misinterpret what I mean. I meant that it's harder in a dietary sense. Vegetarian/vegan people have to pay closer attention to what they're putting in their bodies because of the lack of meat. The only vegetarians/vegans that I know that I would consider "healthy" take supplements and really watch what they eat.

It may be difficult to become a vegetarian (in terms of understanding how to structure your new diet to compensate for what is missing and needed from your old one). But once vegetarianism becomes your lifestyle, shopping for groceries and preparing your meal is no more or less difficult than it is for a meat-eater (in terms of taste and nutrition). It is a fallacy to think that meat provides some nutrients without which man would suffer or wither away - that is simply not true.

Not just meat, but dairy. Vegans have to find good sources of calcium, and probably other stuff that I don't know about. Hehe. I actually eat blackstrap molasses with my oatmeal, very healthy and a good source of calcium.

 

[aniruddha23]

Am sure its mentioned before but will just state my opinion

- If ur vegan and dont force ur views on anyone else GOOD

- If ur carnivore and dont force ur views on anyone else GOOD

- If ur omnivore and dont force ur views on anyone else GOOD

- If ur any of the above and force ur views on others. BAD and ur stupid.

 

[jman19]

Eh, I don't eat meat cause for me it is a moral decision. I don't push my views of morality on things like eating meat; if someone asks me I'll say why but I don't get all preachy or anything. I didn't become a vegetarian until I was 19, and I wouldn't have my kids growing up vegetarian. If they decide they want to do it at some point, so be it. I understand that it is probably better for them to eat meat at a young age when they are still growing.