Intel Skylake / Kaby Lake

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tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
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In the first two benchmarks even a mediocre clocked i5-7600 beats all AMD Ryzen offerings quite comfortably and in the last benchmark 7700k with only 4 cores is able to beat AMDs fastest 8 core offering and you are still asking what happened with the extra IPC and clock speed - LOL. Thanks for the proof that Cinebench is a best case bench for AMD, but we already knew that. By the way are you still in denial mode that Intel can't do Coffeelake with 12 MB L3? You were very silent about this lately. What happened?
What will you do with 0.68s of your life opening a PDF, 9s processing frame-time data and 0.55s converting a song for your smartphone?

Relative numbers are UTTERLY USELESS when absolute differences are of this magnitude. It is a well-established fact that single-thread x86 CPU performance has plateaued over the past ~5 years. BTW I also ran that encoding benchmark you linked to before. Normalizing for clock speeds, Kaby Lake is roughly 2X the performance of 11y.o. Conroe in x264 ST.

Funny that you should mention 12MB L3 in 6-core Coffee Lake when the entire basis of my point back then was based on a slide that YOU leaked. Really you should spend more time analyzing the data that you have your hands on.

Do you have latest data about the die sizes of the 8700K?
 
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dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,069
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Does anybody actually consider price ? or efficiency ? Everybody used to down AMD for efficiency, but now that AMD is better we hear nothing of it. Or how AMD are so much less expensive in general.
Yes, people consider price. But for $330 to get a CPU that will meet just about anyone's needs (except for the few who do know they need a specific processor) the prices are just too low to have price be a significant factor.

The fact is that most people who post on this forum can afford to buy a 7700k or 7740k CPU without thinking about it. CPUs just aren't something worth shopping by price any more for most people. Who really cares if your CPU cost you 18 cents per day or 15?

Back in the days when the top consumer CPUs were pushing over $1000 it mattered a whole lot more. But not today.

AMD is doing themselves a disservice by under-pricing. Few companies become top-dog by being the low-cost alternative. Think Apple.

Edit: changed time frame to "afford to buy...without thinking about it" to keep this thread on topic.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
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Relative numbers are UTTERLY USELESS when absolute differences are of this magnitude. It is a well-established fact that single-thread x86 CPU performance has plateaued over the past ~5 years.

Try not to use words that are absolute. "Utterly useless." If you want to look at it that way literally everything aside from food/air/water is useless. Value, is in the eyes of the beholder. I think its ridiculous people put more value in a shiny stone that has limited exceptional qualities and goes on your finger. I'd call that useless, but lot of people don't.

My point is talking in that manner adds nothing useful to the discussion.

We can do better in the single threaded department. Do better as in, we can use them. Because vast majority of the people do not pursue the activities enthusiasts in Anandtech forums do. If you eliminate game playing you eliminate most of the companies and most of the revenue generation for all the companies. So with most buyers its always the responsiveness that matters.

The human senses are quite amazing. Once you get used to a speed that seemed fast enough, it no longer feels that way. People used to complain about 60Hz monitors. Now some people don't like handling anything under 120 or even 144Hz. I personally think anti-aliasing settings are an absolute waste in resources considering how little of a difference it makes(when you are playing the game) but there are a whole class of people arguing about the technical differences between AA modes.

Not to mention, parallel programming isn't just about just shouting at the programmers to do so. That would be irresponsible. When you could do more useful things like, making better games. Meaning single thread performance is the only realistic way to get consistently faster performance.

In fact we can do better than 0.5x seconds. I believe the true no-need-to-buy-another-computer era would occur if the industry actually gets to have persistent memory(like 3DXPoint) and we get instant boot/load computers.
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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Yes, people consider price. But for $330 to get a CPU that will meet just about anyone's needs (except for the few who do know they need a specific processor) the prices are just too low to have price be a significant factor.

The fact is that most people who post on this forum can buy a 7700k or 7740k CPU for the cost of one day's work. CPUs just aren't something worth shopping by price any more for most people. Who really cares if your CPU cost you 18 cents per day or 15?

Back in the days when the top consumer CPUs were pushing over $1000 it mattered a whole lot more. But not today.

AMD is doing themselves a disservice by under-pricing. Few companies become top-dog by being the low-cost alternative. Think Apple.
My point here is that I do distributed computing. Not only is the electric bill a consideration, but the AC to cool it, so in my case its a lot more than 3 cents a day, especially in the summer (now in the northern hemisphere)
 

richierich1212

Platinum Member
Jul 5, 2002
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AMD is doing themselves a disservice by under-pricing. Few companies become top-dog by being the low-cost alternative. Think Apple.

Apple is not a good comparison because there are more than two cellphone manufacturer (they are the only maker of iOS devices, of course), more than two laptop manufacturers, more than two tablet manufacturers, and more than two desktop manufacturers. Basically MacOS is the difference.

With AMD and Intel being the only two x86 CPU manufacturers, it's a different story.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,069
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My point here is that I do distributed computing. Not only is the electric bill a consideration, but the AC to cool it, so in my case its a lot more than 3 cents a day, especially in the summer (now in the northern hemisphere)
I think it is too varied from benchmark to benchmark to make a general conclusion. For example, you responded to the CineBench 15 benchmark. On that test, the Ryzen 1700 is probably the undisputed performance per watt champion. But the 7900X is basically tied with the 1800X and 1700X for a distant second place. But on other benchmarks Intel is on top. It just is too hard to make a general conclusion.

You'll have to make your DC choice based on what you personally run.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,468
7,872
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95W TDP at stock versus 5GHz OC @ 1.415V+? Performance may be good, but that's throwing efficiency out the window.

OC TDP ~= 95W TDP * (5000MHz / 4000MHz) * (1.415V / 1.200V)^2

We don't know what standard vCore will be at load for CFL yet (or if it's correctly detected by any utilities yet).
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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I think it is too varied from benchmark to benchmark to make a general conclusion. For example, you responded to the CineBench 15 benchmark. On that test, the Ryzen 1700 is probably the undisputed performance per watt champion. But the 7900X is basically tied with the 1800X and 1700X for a distant second place. But on other benchmarks Intel is on top. It just is too hard to make a general conclusion.

You'll have to make your DC choice based on what you personally run.
In every test I have seen, Intels latest take a lot more power to run than AMD, not just DC. Performance is varied however, mixed with the two.
 

swilli89

Golden Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,558
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Where are the AMD system specs in the 7740K review? I believe these results for the Ryzen in the comparison is using older AGESA code as well as slower memory frequency/timing. While I don't really see the point of 4C/8T SKUs on a premium expensive platform in 2017 I'd at least like to see a true comparison with proper software/BIOS for each side. Luckily once we see the heavy guns like Intels 12-core and ThreadRipper going against eachother we will have updated AGESA bios for AMD hopefully...

And I am sorry but what the heck is going on with Intel's power consumption on their 6+ core parts? This is utterly insane ESPECIALLY at stock clocks.. Has AMD truly leaped Kaby Lake in efficiency or is this some kind of bug/error?
87370.png
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,855
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Non-competitive, poorly-priced products, which you have the choice not to buy, doesn't exactly constitute "anti-consumer".

Things like excluding Optane support from Kaby Lake Pentiums, and leaving mainstream Skylake out for no apparent reason despite no additional hardware requirements, on the other hand, can be termed as "anti-consumer".

So is trying to keep the GCC segfaults on Ryzen hidden from the public while they are trying to find to way to fix it, so what? (ill be honest, i just learned about this an hour ago, but it is months old).

As i said earlier, VirtualLarry was saying people should wake up and buy AMD because of Intel anti-consumer practices, then i point out that AMD did anti-consumer practices as well at some point in time, and pointed out some of them. No one is good. I just fail to figure out whats wrong with that because some users jumped on the defensive right away. There are far more Intel anti-consumer practices than the one you mentioned, there is also more AMD anti-consumer practices than the ones i mentioned. Its not really a competition, thats not the point.
 
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PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
2,605
1,540
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Where are the AMD system specs in the 7740K review? I believe these results for the Ryzen in the comparison is using older AGESA code as well as slower memory frequency/timing. While I don't really see the point of 4C/8T SKUs on a premium expensive platform in 2017 I'd at least like to see a true comparison with proper software/BIOS for each side. Luckily once we see the heavy guns like Intels 12-core and ThreadRipper going against eachother we will have updated AGESA bios for AMD hopefully...

And I am sorry but what the heck is going on with Intel's power consumption on their 6+ core parts? This is utterly insane ESPECIALLY at stock clocks.. Has AMD truly leaped Kaby Lake in efficiency or is this some kind of bug/error?
87370.png

Something is definitely odd. It is a beefier platform with quad channel memory, so I would expect a bit more power expended, but it does seem out of line.

I would prefer to see the load while a benchmark is running, so we can see perf/watt, instead we just get Prime95 which doesn't.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,635
3,095
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Does anybody actually consider price ? or efficiency ? Everybody used to down AMD for efficiency, but now that AMD is better we hear nothing of it. Or how AMD are so much less expensive in general.

Yes and yes, for sure. Price is absolutely critical for almost everyone and its the price that makes Intel look so silly right now, so it generates some bad press for them I think. IMO, the only thing Intel might have going for it is coffee lake. That's it. They have one chip that might be attractive and many would be happy to "settle" for the competition and either get 2 more cores or spend $200+ less money for a 6 core option. If I was in charge at Intel I'd be really concerned about the alternative 6 core options on the market.
Also, I saw reports of the coffee lake chip hit 5ghz at over 1.4 volts. Can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't be comfortable beyond 1.3v myself, possibly 1.35v if the gains were worth it. I expect most people to have their coffee lake chip land around 4.6ghz and as far as gaming is concerned, it should perform much like a 7700K or possibly slower since more cores and heat + crap TIM paste = delid.
In the face of the brutal competition, I expect even coffee lake to be a hard sell.
 

Zucker2k

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2006
1,810
1,159
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Where are the AMD system specs in the 7740K review? I believe these results for the Ryzen in the comparison is using older AGESA code as well as slower memory frequency/timing. While I don't really see the point of 4C/8T SKUs on a premium expensive platform in 2017 I'd at least like to see a true comparison with proper software/BIOS for each side. Luckily once we see the heavy guns like Intels 12-core and ThreadRipper going against eachother we will have updated AGESA bios for AMD hopefully...

And I am sorry but what the heck is going on with Intel's power consumption on their 6+ core parts? This is utterly insane ESPECIALLY at stock clocks.. Has AMD truly leaped Kaby Lake in efficiency or is this some kind of bug/error?
87370.png
Prime 95 is not a good stress-testing app for Ryzen; for whatever reason. One member here suggested Y-Cruncher for that job. His Ryzen 1800x pulled 250watts @ 4Ghz (cpu only).
 

Timmah!

Golden Member
Jul 24, 2010
1,429
651
136
4ghz boost clock, surely that's not single core boost?

It'll need to OC well otherwise Threadripper will.. well, threadrip it a new one.

I wonder what the all core turbo would be....3,8GHz? That would make it around 2500ish CB score worthy i presume... surely they dont want it to be any lower, cause in such case it would be too close to 7900x....
Its already listed on local e-shop, although without any further info obviously. Further leaks and ideally reviews cant come soon enough. Same for Threadripper.
 

CHADBOGA

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2009
2,135
832
136
It is going to be very interesting to see the various models of Coffee Lake and their pricing.

I would be amazed if the 6c/12T version is the same price as the 4c/8T version of KabyLake.

My prediction is that at best, Intel will price the 6c6T version at i7700K prices, with the 6c12T being at a new higher pricing tier.
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
5,148
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So I'm curious guys... if someone leaked Core i7-8700K specifications tomorrow, what's your final clock speed prediction?
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,353
10,050
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then i point out that AMD did anti-consumer practices as well at some point in time, and pointed out some of them.
No, you failed to point out any of them.

Calling AM1 a "failed platform", just because it didn't appeal to you, is NOT "anti-consumer". It provided compute power for emergent markets, allowing some people to purchase PCs that couldn't afford them before. It was fairly groundbreaking in some ways. Now, for power users, it's no HEDT for sure. But it had it's niche. It's too bad that AMD apparently discontinued it, I would have looked forward to some faster CPUs for that platform. I had fun playing with it.

Likewise, calling AMD's exemplary socket-compatibility, between AM2 and AM2+, and AMD3/AM2+... (ok, so they needed a new socket for Faildozer, so they came out with AM3+, but it was still backwards-compatible with AM3 CPUs.), "anti-consumer", is absolutely hilarious to hear. As if, Intel's constant socket-changing, requiring new motherboards every two years, is somehow better?
 

Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
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My prediction: 4.2 GHz all cores, 4.4 up to 4 cores, and 4.6 up to 2.

Reddit appears to be making rounds of a Tom's Hardware article about Intel Coffee Lake. It's all old stuff from 2017-07-01. But, the test system added several results using Coffee Lake's integrated GPU on 2017-07-17. Unsurprisingly, it's a familiar HD Graphics 630, 192 cores, 1150 MHz.
 
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DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
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Calling AM1 a "failed platform", just because it didn't appeal to you, is NOT "anti-consumer". It provided compute power for emergent markets, allowing some people to purchase PCs that couldn't afford them before. It was fairly groundbreaking in some ways. Now, for power users, it's no HEDT for sure. But it had it's niche. It's too bad that AMD apparently discontinued it, I would have looked forward to some faster CPUs for that platform. I had fun playing with it.

Seconding this. My Athlon 5350 didn't have a lot of grunt, but the iGPU was better than Intel's offerings. I actually fit the thing into the case of a dead NES to make one hella unique budget home theater PC.
 

SocialJusticeWarrior

Junior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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It is going to be very interesting to see the various models of Coffee Lake and their pricing.

I would be amazed if the 6c/12T version is the same price as the 4c/8T version of KabyLake.

My prediction is that at best, Intel will price the 6c6T version at i7700K prices, with the 6c12T being at a new higher pricing tier.
7800x is already under $400. If Intel is being generous, CL version of 7700k will be the new i3. LOL probably not since Zen is not really on par in performance.