Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

		Intel Alder Lake - N	Intel Wildcat Lake	Intel Lunar Lake		Mediatek D9500
Launch Date		Q1-2023	Q2-2026 ?	Q3-2024		Q3-2025
Model		Intel N300	?	Core Ultra 7 268V		Dimensity 9500 5G
Dies		2	2	2		1
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		TSMC N3P
CPU		8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		C1 1+3+4
Threads		8	6	8		8
Max Clock		3.8 GHz	?	5 GHz
L3 Cache		6 MB	?	12 MB
TDP		7 W	Fanless ?	17 W		Fanless
Memory		64-bit LPDDR5-4800	64-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533		64-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size		16 GB	?	32 GB		24 GB ?
Bandwidth			~ 55 GB/s	136 GB/s		85.6 GB/s
GPU		UHD Graphics		Arc 140V		G1 Ultra
EU / Xe		32 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		12
Max Clock		1.25 GHz		2 GHz
NPU		NA	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		100 TOPS ?

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[csbin]

ARL-S Game Over

https://twitter.com/x/status/1877506376550789594

 

[511]

Of course. We'll order a few hundred PTL-U Dell Pro's or whatever they're calling the Latitude 5000 series replacement. They'll be an improvement over the Core 100U's we're currently deploying, which are already more than sufficient for office work.

As for the quick replacement: I'm also doubtful. Maybe one or two PTL laptops in December to claim 2025 launch date metrics were met - but expect most PTL-H laptops to be announced / launched at next year's CES.

It's same amount of LNL imo around 2million PTL

PTL-H is a replacement to ARL-H. PTL-U is a replacement to ARL-U. Packaging changes (improvements) don't change the market segments they're operating in.

Yup

 

[DrMrLordX]

ARL-S Game Over

Let's hope Dr. Su remembers to send both Intel co-CEOs "Thank you" cards for the OS update.

 

[511]

Thanks Swan and whoever was with you on delivering meh Architecture of series of product (MTL/ARL) for

 

[DAPUNISHER]

ARL-S Game Over

https://twitter.com/x/status/1877506376550789594

Please refrain from posting content that trashes a vendor in that vendor's threads. This post was reported, and it is indeed flame bait. Posting this in an AMD thread is okay, as throwing some shade at the competition is expected.

Mod DAPUNISHER.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Thanks Swan and whoever was with you on delivering meh Architecture of series of product (MTL/ARL) for

Pat should take responsibility for both. With his technical background, he should never have let MTL see the light of day. It was so easy to kill a mediocre product as soon as the first tapeout samples were in their hands and they found out that it would underperform. But instead, they went full steam ahead and delivered V2.0 of MTL, which was arguably much better but still had the basic teething issues with tiles. No matter what kind of mental gymnastics people play to blame Intel's current situation on Pat's predecessors, it's really Pat who has to take full responsibility because his job was to UNDO the damage, not create even more of a mess.

 

[Hitman928]

Pat should take responsibility for both. With his technical background, he should never have let MTL see the light of day. It was so easy to kill a mediocre product as soon as the first tapeout samples were in their hands and they found out that it would underperform. But instead, they went full steam ahead and delivered V2.0 of MTL, which was arguably much better but still had the basic teething issues with tiles. No matter what kind of mental gymnastics people play to blame Intel's current situation on Pat's predecessors, it's really Pat who has to take full responsibility because his job was to UNDO the damage, not create even more of a mess.

I think Pat made some major mistakes while being CEO (he did good things too but the mistakes cost him his job), but MTL and even ARL are not on him. They were way too far along in development for him to make meaningful change with them. It also would not have been wise to cancel them. It may seem counter-intuitive, but it is almost always better to release something new, even if it under performs, as new goes a long way in the OEM market which is the main customer and lets you get real feedback which is very important, even when you know you will be underperforming. Products wise, Pat should be judged on the next gen that comes after this one in terms of his influence really being on the products.

 

[511]

Pat should take responsibility for both. With his technical background, he should never have let MTL see the light of day. It was so easy to kill a mediocre product as soon as the first tapeout samples were in their hands and they found out that it would underperform. But instead, they went full steam ahead and delivered V2.0 of MTL, which was arguably much better but still had the basic teething issues with tiles. No matter what kind of mental gymnastics people play to blame Intel's current situation on Pat's predecessors, it's really Pat who has to take full responsibility because his job was to UNDO the damage, not create even more of a mess.

He fixed GNR lol otherwise it would have underperformed he fixed their freaking process that kranzich and Swan threw under the bus they would rather give TSMC Money than to fund Intel lmao if Swan had thrown some money at Intel Meteor Lake wouldn't have been horrible he fixed the most difficult issue also MTL 2.0 exists in term of ARL-U if you want to see Improvements

 

[igor_kavinski]

also MTL 2.0 exists in term of ARL-U if you want to see Improvements

You can't be selective. How come ARL-S is not Pat's fault but ARL-U improvements are totally his doing?

Are you saying Pat cared more about the laptop market than desktop?

Oh gee, that explains everything!

Screwed Raptor Lake with via oxidation in the fabs to fast track MTL shipments. Then neglected to care about ARL-S because ARL-U was a definite improvement over the paltry MTL parts.

 

[cannedlake240]

You can't be selective. How come ARL-S is not Pat's fault but ARL-U improvements are totally his doing?

Are you saying Pat cared more about the laptop market than desktop?

Oh gee, that explains everything!

Screwed Raptor Lake with via oxidation in the fabs to fast track MTL shipments. Then neglected to care about ARL-S because ARL-U was a definite improvement over the paltry MTL parts.

It's not being selective though? ARL-U is a "fixed" MTL-U 2+8 arriving a whole year later. It's not even a proper fix, just a compute tile swap that slightly improves perf/W, while broader MTL/ARL platform issues are still not addressed. This fix doesn't even apply to ARL since it doesn't have an Fmax problem. Truth is MTL/ARL have inherent flaws in the soc architecture that'd take a year or two to address, and by that point that's on NVL and PTL to solve those flaws

 

[511]

You can't be selective. How come ARL-S is not Pat's fault but ARL-U improvements are totally his doing?

Cause Intel 3 never existed. GNR/SRF/MTL all were defined for original Intel 7nm which got scraped.
Pat made Intel 7nm+ and 7nm++ (Intel 4 and Intel 3). MTL was on Intel 4 but GNR/SRF moved to I3 and it is forward compatible with I4 and apparently I3 turned out to be good and they ported the MTL-U die to I3 as well to fill in the gap in their products and minimize cost issues due to TSMC you can think of it as an big refresh. they simply improved upon the process one such example in BEOL

Are you saying Pat cared more about the laptop market than desktop?

Oh gee, that explains everything!

Yes Desktop is low priority for them

Screwed Raptor Lake with via oxidation in the fabs to fast track MTL shipments. Then neglected to care about ARL-S because ARL-U was a definite improvement over the paltry MTL parts.

Oxidation issue is not a process issue just to be clear and it has nothing to do with fast tracking MTL cause the fabs (Arizona for the oxidation issue and Oregon/Ireland for Meteor Lake) are entirely different its more like an accident cause by someone's negligence whoever that was and as for last part you are most likely correct they are gaining +500 Mhz Boost clock and such high base clocks without raising power to the moon lol.

Intel Delivers Leading-Edge Foundry Node with Intel 3 Technology; on Path Back to Process Leadership

Editor’s Note: Welcome to the new Intel Foundry blog! We're launching this resource as a new way to peek inside our systems foundry for the AI era with some of the experts making it happen. We're thrilled to launch the blog with this exciting look at the Intel 3 node’s performance gains from...

community.intel.com

https://vlsi24.mapyourshow.com/mys_shared/vlsi24/handouts/T1-1_Hafez.pdf

 

[dttprofessor]

TSMC N3 delay》》intel MTL /ARW delay 1year.
Intel is destined to lose the desktop gaming market this year. Even if amd all 9000X products combined cannot sell 9800X3d, changing the new ARL of all tiles will not help. pat said that "all bets are on 18A", which does not only refer to silicon nodes, but also to products.

 

[DavidC1]

Pat should take responsibility for both. With his technical background, he should never have let MTL see the light of day. It was so easy to kill a mediocre product as soon as the first tapeout samples were in their hands and they found out that it would underperform. But instead, they went full steam ahead and delivered V2.0 of MTL, which was arguably much better but still had the basic teething issues with tiles.

Processes are built upon the learnings of previous generation, which Meteorlake was basically a learning vehicle for it. Without it, neither Intel 3, or 18A would exist. This is a common mistake, which by now I would have hoped you learned from it. Only way for Meteorlake to not exist is for fabs to be completely thrown in the garbage by now.

Just like Intel's graphic driver development went full steam only after launch of their dGPU, despite having iGPU for almost 3 decades, only real world learnings matter in the end.

Arrowlake was supposed to launch BEFORE Lunarlake. And predecessor to Arrowlake is Meteorlake. Which means by the time Gelsinger got in, both were in pretty advanced stages. The only thing you can do is to prevent any further delays.

Back then when it was known as Intel 7nm, it was announced it was delayed at least 6 months, which meant they had to delay Meteorlake. Hence Raptorlake as the replacement.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Pat should take responsibility for both. With his technical background, he should never have let MTL see the light of day. It was so easy to kill a mediocre product as soon as the first tapeout samples were in their hands and they found out that it would underperform. But instead, they went full steam ahead and delivered V2.0 of MTL, which was arguably much better but still had the basic teething issues with tiles. No matter what kind of mental gymnastics people play to blame Intel's current situation on Pat's predecessors, it's really Pat who has to take full responsibility because his job was to UNDO the damage, not create even more of a mess.

Intel had nothing else. Also they did kill Meteor Lake-S which is where it would have been (apparently) quite bad. That got us Raptor Lake Refresh and see how well that worked out . . .

 

[SiliconFly]

.

 

[igor_kavinski]

He needs to make up his mind. Last year, he said moore’s law is dead. And now this:

Dementia setting in. Pretty soon he's gonna need AI assistance.

 

[511]

He needs to make up his mind. Last year, he said moore’s law is dead. And now this:

View attachment 114735

Exclusive: Nvidia CEO says his AI chips are improving faster than Moore's Law

Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang says the performance of his company's AI chips is advancing faster than historical rates set by Moore's Law, the rubric that drove

techcrunch.com

Are you doubting Captain Jensen and his Nvenger Squad?



On a side note his 5090 was following Moore's law in flesh vs 4090 and he still says Moore's Law is Dead bruh is still relying on Moore's law and TSMC for that matter and he doesn't want to

 

[igor_kavinski]

Are you doubting Captain Jensen and his Nvenger Squad?

View attachment 114749

Don't care about that unless he's gifting that to me and he supports it with the latest drivers till the last Kavinski on this planet

 

[maddie]

He needs to make up his mind. Last year, he said moore’s law is dead. And now this:

View attachment 114735

Exclusive: Nvidia CEO says his AI chips are improving faster than Moore's Law

Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang says the performance of his company's AI chips is advancing faster than historical rates set by Moore's Law, the rubric that drove

techcrunch.com

He needs to do what he's doing.

It's us dummies who repeat what he says reverently that is the problem. If a little intelligence and skepticism is used occasionally we'll be fine.

 

[poke01]

Why do people take CEO marketing seriously??

Lots of CEOs say stupid or silly things it’s literally their job to defend their company from whatever

 

[Saylick]

Why do people take CEO marketing seriously??

Lots of CEOs say stupid or silly things it’s literally their job to defend their company from whatever

They take his words seriously because he happened to be selling shovels during a gold rush. In America, we happen to obsess over the rich and successful as if being rich was a virtue.

 

[poke01]

They take his words seriously because he happened to be selling shovels during a gold rush. In America, we happen to obsess over the rich and successful as if being rich was a virtue.

its not just Amercian thing, its worldwide. Its a human thing. Anyway I don't get CEO worship, either from Nvidia fans, or AMD fans. I seen this countless times here and elsewhere.

 

[Markfw]

its not just Amercian thing, its worldwide. Its a human thing. Anyway I don't get CEO worship, either from Nvidia fans, or AMD fans. I seen this countless times here and elsewhere.

You missed also using Intel fans. Its across all companies.

 

[SiliconFly]

.

 

[Nothingness]

its not just Amercian thing, its worldwide. Its a human thing. Anyway I don't get CEO worship, either from Nvidia fans, or AMD fans. I seen this countless times here and elsewhere.

In my country being rich makes many people jealous and dubious of how they got rich.