Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

		Intel Alder Lake - N	Intel Wildcat Lake	Intel Lunar Lake		Mediatek D9500
Launch Date		Q1-2023	Q2-2026 ?	Q3-2024		Q3-2025
Model		Intel N300	?	Core Ultra 7 268V		Dimensity 9500 5G
Dies		2	2	2		1
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		TSMC N3P
CPU		8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		C1 1+3+4
Threads		8	6	8		8
Max Clock		3.8 GHz	?	5 GHz
L3 Cache		6 MB	?	12 MB
TDP		7 W	Fanless ?	17 W		Fanless
Memory		64-bit LPDDR5-4800	64-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533		64-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size		16 GB	?	32 GB		24 GB ?
Bandwidth			~ 55 GB/s	136 GB/s		85.6 GB/s
GPU		UHD Graphics		Arc 140V		G1 Ultra
EU / Xe		32 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		12
Max Clock		1.25 GHz		2 GHz
NPU		NA	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		100 TOPS ?

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[511]

It hits CPU bottlenecks even with Zen4.

This there is something wrong with drivers

 

[LightningZ71]

IMHO, it's either a badly written driver, OR, it's the drivers having to do more work to compensate for another hardware deficiency...

 

[Meteor Late]

Actually they also tested it with Ryzen 2000 series which shows a heavy drop. Thats clearly not recommended by the manufacturer.

They also tested with 3600, 5600, 5700X3D, etc, the drop is real, there is no excuse and there is no sensationalism.

 

[511]

IMHO, it's either a badly written driver, OR, it's the drivers having to do more work to compensate for another hardware deficiency...

Or we have some sort of hacks for some things in drivers

 

[igor_kavinski]

I personally think that with APO and driver binaries specially compiled for Lion Cove/Skymont, the driver overhead won't be that much of an issue and this is what Intel cares about really. To sell this combination to OEMs by the thousands or millions. They don't give a crap about how good or bad it works on existing hardware and that would be expected given their limited software development resources. They gotta do triage and optimize for the future which is where the most money lies. I'm guessing the current BM shortage is also related to fulfilling huge B580/B570 orders for the big three (Dell, HP, Lenovo).

 

[511]

I personally think that with APO and driver binaries specially compiled for Lion Cove/Skymont, the driver overhead won't be that much of an issue and this is what Intel cares about really. To sell this combination to OEMs by the thousands or millions. They don't give a crap about how good or bad it works on existing hardware and that would be expected given their limited software development resources. They gotta do triage and optimize for the future which is where the most money lies. I'm guessing the current BM shortage is also related to fulfilling huge B580/B570 orders for the big three (Dell, HP, Lenovo).

Not just LNC/SKT GLC/GMT as well and for the driver overhead it will be sorted out if it's a software fix or keep broken if it's a HW flaw

 

[gaav87]

Anyone remember this setting ?
Maximum pre-rendered frames.
Maybe it's the culprit. like in the rtx1000-2000 days and even rx5000 series.
I remember setting this for overwatch in 2016 and it reduced cpu bottleneck by, A LOT

 

[Gideon]

Actually they also tested it with Ryzen 2000 series which shows a heavy drop. Thats clearly not recommended by the manufacturer.

Just stop spreading fud. Yeah they also tested with Ryzen 2000 among others, but just look at this chart, will you:

Just look at this chart. Are you seriously claiming this is a "nothingburger" and the only issue here is HWUB's integrity?

Hardware Unboxed just wants to sensationalize something which is clearly misleading.

Dropping below 4060 even with a Ryzen 7600 is a huge issue, totally worth mentioning. But surely noone is ever gonna pair this 250$ GPU with a mid/low range CPU right?

 

[igor_kavinski]

But surely noone is ever gonna pair this 250$ GPU with a mid/low range CPU right?

Buy today and unlock full performance in three to four years with a next gen midrange CPU?

 

[LightningZ71]

Another "Fine Wine?"

 

[igor_kavinski]

Another "Fine Wine?"

Raja Koduri drinks a lot!

 

[AcrosTinus]

Just stop spreading fud. Yeah they also tested with Ryzen 2000 among others, but just look at this chart, will you:

Just look at this chart. Are you seriously claiming this is a "nothingburger" and the only issue here is HWUB's integrity?


Dropping below 4060 even with a Ryzen 7600 is a huge issue, totally worth mentioning. But surely noone is ever gonna pair this 250$ GPU with a mid/low range CPU right?

It is though, I know no one in my group that is eyeing a ARC card. Some are but for media encoding reasons or video editing due to the superior media engines. This performance has been on the market for years at a lower price with a 8GB RAM limitation.
For the money try shooting a used 3080 for a little more and you will be served for years as a casual.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Raja Koduri drinks a lot!

Um guess he likes a stogie too?

 

[coercitiv]

Since folsk are joking around about Raja, I'll afford a technically off-topic post myself. Asianometry recently published a very condensed and informative video recap of Intel's rise in the industry. I highly recommend it for anyone interested in a bird's eye view of Intel's history and modus operandi during the glory days.

 

[poke01]

Since folsk are joking around about Raja, I'll afford a technically off-topic post myself. Asianometry recently published a very condensed and informative video recap of Intel's rise in the industry. I highly recommend it for anyone interested in a bird's eye view of Intel's history and modus operandi during the glory days.

Intel at its peak was from 2006-2012.

No one I mean no one could beat them, the only ones that could destroy Intel were themselves…

 

[511]

Since folsk are joking around about Raja, I'll afford a technically off-topic post myself. Asianometry recently published a very condensed and informative video recap of Intel's rise in the industry. I highly recommend it for anyone interested in a bird's eye view of Intel's history and modus operandi during the glory days.

This Intel was something that striked fear in the heart of Even Huang it is never coming back

 

[511]

Intel at its peak was from 2006-2012.

No one I mean no one could beat them, the only ones that could destroy Intel were themselves…

BK was CEO from 2013-2018 🤣 he should get the credit don't you think @igor_kavinski you can blame him cause he never did a single good thing

 

[511]

Lion Cove (Latency Destroys the core )

Analyzing Lion Cove's Memory Subsystem in Arrow Lake

A CPU core can perform very differently depending on the platform it's deployed in.

chipsandcheese.com

 

[Hulk]

Intel at its peak was from 2006-2012.

No one I mean no one could beat them, the only ones that could destroy Intel were themselves…

Mission accomplished.

 

[511]

Mission accomplished.

All the heavy lifting was done by Brian kranzich and bunch of other dudes company destroyed and Brain rotted from the most innovative company to most brain rotted one.
And the dudes left after mission accomplished

 

[igor_kavinski]

BK was CEO from 2013-2018 🤣 he should get the credit don't you think @igor_kavinski you can blame him cause he never did a single good thing

Not true.

Broadwell Core i7-5775C

So he did just one good thing and then screwed the pooch by not continuing it or improving upon it.

 

[Hulk]

All the heavy lifting was done by Brian kranzich and bunch of other dudes company destroyed and Brain rotted from the most innovative company to most brain rotted one

I'm sure they're all super rich and laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Hulk]

Not true.

Broadwell Core i7-5775C

So he did just one good thing and then screwed the pooch by not continuing it or improving upon it.

That part in reality didn't register as far as sales. By and large Broadwell was mobile only because Intel couldn't get 14nm clocks up to desktop levels from Haswell.

Broadwell and 14nm was the beginning of Intel's long slide into the abyss.

 

[511]

Not true.

Broadwell Core i7-5775C

So he did just one good thing and then screwed the pooch by not continuing it or improving upon it.

14nm delayed by 6 month 10nm was delayed for like 4 years getting Quad Cores in his reign near to the end even a broken clock is right twice lmao and he even missed it he literally has more failures to his name than any other

 

[LightningZ71]

Jut continuing the 5775C into the 6th generation could have given them quite an innovative product. I think that the biggest hurdle would have been their own pricing strategy. They would have charged more for that product than anormal 6th gen i7+ low end videocard, thus killing any value proposition it had against the alternative's performance.

The only place that it would have gotten traction would have been with Apple.