Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+0+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[511]

Th Zen 6 32 core variant is the even weaker C cores. I remember reading it somewhere on how they would get 32 onto one CCD with upcoming Zen 6. But maybe things change do not know. But if Zen 6 is coming 2025, hard to imagine they could get 32 into one CCD without making them even weaker C cores/

Zen 6 is not coming before 2026 Typical AMD schedule anyway LNL NDA is 24 few days away

 

[OneEng2]

It is a updated core on entirely new node with GAA and BSPD so i would call it new otherwise crestmont wouldn't be a new core ?

Agree. The point I was trying to make is 18A is a very high risk node.

Referring to glue? Like how are things glued and how intel does it.

I thought a process node was all an SOC and no glue?

I mean technically didn't Intel glue two Pentium 4 chips into one package to make the Pentium D and thus they were not a true dual core but rather a dual socket Pentium 4s in one package. Also kind of like how AMD currently glues 2 5800X/7700X/5600X/7600X/9700X/9600X CCDs into one paclkage chip to make the current Ryzen 9 parts??

I specifically meant digital glue . Not actual glue.

Also, seems like AMD have released a new bios update that greatly lowers the CCD to CCD latency many have mentioned.

You expect people to find this position acceptable? That's the core of assessing whether a company is moral, immoral, or simply amoral.

No. I personally find it unacceptable. I am a high level manager and have been in several companies. This is how it is done. Investors don't care about the relative morality of a company, only how it performs financially. It is brutal, but it is true. I do find it amusing that some of the same people that detest company morals are also decrying federal regulation. It's like people expect companies to behave like a loving parent .

 

[511]

Agree. The point I was trying to make is 18A is a very high risk node.

Well they derisked BSPDN GAA is the only main risk alongside yields

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No. I personally find it unacceptable. I am a high level manager and have been in several companies. This is how it is done. Investors don't care about the relative morality of a company, only how it performs financially. It is brutal, but it is true. I do find it amusing that some of the same people that detest company morals are also decrying federal regulation. It's like people expect companies to behave like a loving parent .

Exactly lawsuit doesn't matter it's a matter of by doing this or that how much did you gain in profit

 

[cebri1]

They had an Intel 4 hybrid to de-risk 20A and 18A.

 

[SiliconFly]

.

 

[SiliconFly]

.

 

[SiliconFly]

.

 

[cebri1]

HUB saying the ARL announcement is expected to happen the 10th of October and the release will follow the 24th. They also said there hasn't been any delay, the 24th date has been more or less known for some time.

 

[DavidC1]

Maybe so. But RWC didn't bring in any IPC increase, hence it's a lost cause. And worse, at launch, it had regression. I still wish RWC didn't exist.

You keep saying this over and over but oftentimes a refresh of a core on a new process is necessary which is what Redwood Cove is.

 

[DavidC1]

I do find it amusing that some of the same people that detest company morals are also decrying federal regulation. It's like people expect companies to behave like a loving parent .

Because government is the penultimate monopoly with near zero consequences to it's actions.

Rather than deregulation things would be better solved if certain crimes couldn't be *cough* bribed *cough* lobbied and/or you can pay your way out of jail and/or you fine the company rather than fining/jailing the individuals responsible.

Volkswagen was fined a massive amount and most of the individuals responsible basically got off with a mere slap in the wrist. Let's say instead they were put in prison regardless of position or fined relative to their earnings, meaning a millionaire would be fined 10x compared to someone having 10x less.

 

[511]

LNL Blender benchmark

 

[jdubs03]

Figured I’d attach too as this is a related 258V posting (Blender CPU).
Closest analogy would be the 155U (14 threads) at 15W.

Seems like the 165U is an extreme outlier, considering it should be faster than the 155U, and somewhere between the 155U and 155H.

 

[511]

CPU Benchmark Intel wasn't kidding with Lunar Lake also this dude is benchmarking a laptop with a laptop that was stated to be not ready for benchmark 🤣

 

[mikk]

This is the same "do not run benchmarks on this device" from Dell tested on a different channel. Some scores look worse than other leaks, pretty much meaningless this test.

 

[cannedlake240]

CPU Benchmark Intel wasn't kidding with Lunar Lake also this dude is benchmarking a laptop with a laptop that was stated to be not ready for benchmark 🤣

View attachment 107987View attachment 107988View attachment 107989

5ghz at 15W seems too good to be true. Is this TSMC magic or is Intel underselling LNC efficiency?

 

[Markfw]

5ghz at 15W seems too good to be true. Is this TSMC magic or is Intel underselling LNC efficiency?

Or is it totally fake ? When something is too good to be true, it usually isn't

 

[cebri1]

Or is it totally fake ? When something is too good to be true, it usually is.

So it’s true?

 

[Markfw]

So it’s true?

It usually isn't . I edited... I doubt this is true.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Investors don't care about the relative morality of a company, only how it performs financially.

Nobody was discussing investors. I certainly wasn't when I brought up the question.

 

[blackangus]

Well ZenC is dense and much weaker cores with gimped cache. Maybe they could do more than 8 cores on CCX. Probably though is it possible thermal and density constraints are in play for 12 higher performing cores on a single CCX rather than just hey do not only because of margins. Or both?

The C and even weaker C cores they have more for a reason. They are smaller clocked lower and have less cache so thus 16 C cores and 32 even weaker C variants on a single CCD/CCX/ And the 32 core variant is probably dual 16 CCX weak 16 cores on a single CCD so even crossing CCX bad latency penalty.

So your looking forward to the 12 core Bartlett Lake and see if it is generally available. I am too, but part of me is skeptical it will be stable or will it even be unlocked or have decent clocks. Or heck will it even be on a ring or just a shaved off Emerald Rapids Raptor Cove mesh die of 12 working P cores to fit into LGA 1700? And looking forward to Arrow Lake. Which would you choose. I like the all in one P core but at same time like newer arch of Arrow Lake especially with the strong e-cores finally. We have 1 month and 4 days to wait for Arrow Lake. Or maybe I will stick with 7800X3D. Its a tough call. Getting a little more than 16 threads especially with no SMT/HT is intriguing for gaming and thread heavy games with consistent core to core latency. But so is having 12 homogenous cores on one die.

From the thermal perspective that can be taken care of by design (more area) so I think while its likely an overall part of what is taken into account, ultimately it will be a margin impact to do it.
They could do lesser frequency which can translate to less transistors - Which I believe is one of the reasons they can/do pack more c cores on a die, as the lower clock offsets the higher area? At least I saw speculation of this at one point, or add more area in general to help disapate hear or likey many other ways of lower voltage use etc. All have trade offs that impact margin.

Yeah the 12 core could be a nice sweet spot for price/performance possibly (for me), but I too am dubious if its truly meant as an embedded part. But here's hoping! Im just going to look at all my options and see which one wins the best bang for the buck!

 

[poke01]

5ghz at 15W seems too good to be true. Is this TSMC magic or is Intel underselling LNC efficiency?

I’m leaning towards believable

 

[poke01]

It usually isn't . I edited... I doubt this is true.

Do you doubt because Intel is more efficient than AMD?

Lunar Lake is an efficiency focused design and on a slightly better node. There’s no reason why Lunar cannot do 15 watts @ 5.1GHz

 

[Markfw]

Do you doubt because Intel is more efficient than AMD?

I would doubt even if it WAS AMD.

 

[poke01]

I would doubt even if it WAS AMD.

Why though? Apple does 6 watts @ 4.06GHz while being 6% slower than Intel in R23 ST.

I’m sure next week we will see the same.

 

[Markfw]

Why though? Apple does 6 watts @ 4.06GHz while being 6% slower than Intel in R23 ST.

I’m sure next week we will see the same.

I will not argue, just seems wrong.