Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+0+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[Oneto]

This thread is so entertaining. It is. I have no idea what half of what is being said means but that doesn't matter I guess.

 

[FlameTail]

Damn shame that the Crater Lake laptop can't touch the Ryzen laptop even with a larger battery.

View attachment 93906
The first three tests the MTL SoC was supposed to excel at and even in the last test, the Ryzen laptop gives it a run for its money.

But don't worry, Intel. Your fans won't let you sweat. They will keep you nice and cool with their disposable dollars!

Now where is Apple M3😏

 

[Markfw]

Yeah my COO is just like that. Thinks of these people as servants for hire and ignores their suggestions. I keep wondering how long before we post a loss. Then it's gonna be him pointing fingers at everyone but himself.

Slightly OT, but the company I retired from, I told a senior VP about something that need to change for better customer service and his reply was "Its's beyond my pay grade to effect such a change". There was only 2 steps above him. That is sad. Thats exactly what happened at Intel, is what I think you are all agreeing to.

 

[adroc_thurston]

MTL is foveros

In name only.

Damn shame that the Crater Lake laptop can't touch the Ryzen laptop even with a larger battery.

View attachment 93906
The first three tests the MTL SoC was supposed to excel at and even in the last test, the Ryzen laptop gives it a run for its money.

But don't worry, Intel. Your fans won't let you sweat. They will keep you nice and cool with their disposable dollars!

ooohh that's embarassing

 

[Hitman928]

Now where is Apple M3😏

Top is H264 and middle is WiFi. Note that I don’t think the Mac uses an OLED screen but someone can correct me if I’m wrong on that.

 

[Saylick]

Yeah my COO is just like that. Thinks of these people as servants for hire and ignores their suggestions. I keep wondering how long before we post a loss. Then it's gonna be him pointing fingers at everyone but himself.

The worst part is that C-suite execs get a golden parachute if they get sacked.

I'm glad my company is employee-owned and the entire upper management, except for CFO and legal, are all engineers.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Slightly OT, but the company I retired from, I told a senior VP about something that need to change for better customer service and his reply was "Its's beyond my pay grade to effect such a change". There was only 2 steps above him. That is sad. Thats exactly what happened at Intel, is what I think you are all agreeing to.

Yeah I think these people are so comfy with their skyhigh wages that they don't want to disturb the hornet's nest and would rather inflate their bank account in peace rather than risk trying to be loyal to the entity that pays them and then be seen as THE PROBLEM instead of the one IDENTIFYING the problem.

Spoiler: funny story OT

Funny thing happened last year to us. My entire department (operations) was looked over during the performance evaluations and no one got even a cent of an increment. Everyone around me was furious. It was decided with the department head that we would all go in unison to the top management and report our grievance because some other departments with good actors (as in good at drama) were able to secure some nice increments. So we were not sure why we were left out.

One day before the "march" to the COO's office was supposed to happen, our dept head goes to the COO and tells him the situation. Next day, the COO identifies some mistake by one of our members and rocks the entire office with his booming voice, chiding us, even those who had nothing to do with the mistake. And thus, it was no longer possible to "demand" an explanation since he would just bring this up as an example of how incompetent we were.

Our weasel of a dept head is enjoying his fat paycheck by the way

 

[SiliconFly]

.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Oh yeah! Thats gotta to be it!

Yeah.

Considering MTL's foveros packaging is far more advanced than LakeField.

Tighter bump pitch (36um) but the base is wholly passive slab (welcome from 2012).

 

[H433x0n]

Little bit of hopium fuel for ARL-S gaming performance not being a total trainwreck.

Spoiler: MTL gaming data

Spoiler: Hawk Point gaming data

Seems to be roughly at par with HawkPoint here (except for MW3 & CyberPunk). It's also a lower clocking SKU, so maybe the 165H or 185H would close the gap a little bit.

 

[Hitman928]

Little bit of hopium fuel for ARL-S gaming performance not being a total trainwreck.

Spoiler: MTL gaming data

View attachment 93912

Spoiler: Hawk Point gaming data

View attachment 93913

Seems to be roughly at par with HawkPoint here (except for MW3 & CyberPunk). It's also a lower clocking SKU, so maybe the 165H or 185H would close the gap a little bit.

The MTL laptop dGPU is running at 23% higher power.

Edit: I’m not predicting anything about ARL-S with this comment, just noting that the MTL GPU being able to use more power blurs the ability to draw gaming performance conclusions from these results.

 

[SiliconFly]

.

 

[H433x0n]

The MTL laptop dGPU is running at 23% higher power.

It has a 23% higher power budget, not sure if that matters when running cpu limited at 1080p.

 

[adroc_thurston]

And Zen5 uses routing wires in substrate!

They're very magical carriers overall.

To sum it up, ARL uses very advanced foveros packaging

It's a passive 2.5D slab. nothing special or interesting.

NOC interconnect

It's IOSF. From 2012.

 

[Hitman928]

It has a 23% higher power budget, not sure if that matters when running cpu limited at 1080p.

It uses all 80 W running Witcher 3 at 1080p Ultra. How much it uses at lower settings isn't shown but at such low power budgets, it wouldn't surprise me if it still uses 80 W, or near 80 W, even at lower settings. Some games, like Avatar, will for sure use all 80 W, even at 1080p low.

 

[Tigerick]

OK, here comes some leaks not from me but credential leaker about ARL & PTL:

• ARL-H (6P+8E) comes with iGPU (Build by newer process, N4P) 8 Xe1 LPG+ cores clocking at 2.3GHz
• ARL-HX (8P+16E, H and HX's tCPU are different dies) comes with 4 Xe cores
• SoC has been updated to support WiFi7, still on N6
• PTL-H's tCPU integrates with 4P+8E+4LPe without HT, SoC and MC
• Here comes interesting part, PTL's tGPU comes with 12 Xe3 LPG core clocking at 2.5GHz. Yeah it is GT3 with 7.7 TF, slightly higher than Strix Point. And they are built on Intel 3+ process. Finally, IFS build tGPU.
• ADM so far is dead.

Compared to MTL-H's iGPU, below is the major changes in ARL's iGPU:

• Doubled L2 cache.
• Doubled RT throughput.
• XMX cores added.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It's funny that Intel is reliably firing on all cylinders in...GRAPHICS!

From joke to fairly desirable product, it's been quite a journey for them and they ain't stoppin'!

 

[adroc_thurston]

It's funny that Intel is reliably firing on all cylinders in...GRAPHICS

No?
Their IP still sucks.

From joke to fairly desirable product, it's been quite a journey for them and they ain't stoppin'!

They're still not competitive on raw PPA metrics.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Their IP still sucks.

Is that envy? Remember, they are No.2 in upscaling (XeSS) and also in raytracing.

Plus, they put out a paper on enabling real time performant raytracing on iGPUs which could be a real gamechanger if there is virtually no performance hit on enabling RT.

 

[Abwx]

The MTL laptop dGPU is running at 23% higher power.

Edit: I’m not predicting anything about ARL-S with this comment, just noting that the MTL GPU being able to use more power blurs the ability to draw gaming performance conclusions from these results.

Despite these 23% higher dGPU power gaming perfs are comparable, even the 3DMark score is the same within margin of error, so what is exactly this higher power used for is a question that has no logic answer at first glance, in principle it should had yielded 8-10% higher perf on average including in 3DMark.

 

[gdansk]

Is that envy? Remember, they are No.2 in upscaling (XeSS) and also in raytracing.

Don't get ahead of yourself. They're not yet #2 in raytracing. 406mm² N6 DG2-512 vs 204mm² N6 N33 and they're only 20% ahead in RT (at 50% higher power too). Gotta wait for BM before talking up anything about Intel graphics outside of their upscaling. Oh and I guess MTL is doing good catching up.

Spoiler

 

[H433x0n]

Don't get ahead of yourself. They're not yet #2 in raytracing. 406mm² N6 DG2-512 vs 204mm² N6 N33 and they're only 20% ahead in RT (at 50% higher power too). Gotta wait for BM before talking up anything about Intel graphics outside of their upscaling. Oh and I guess MTL is doing good catching up.

Spoiler

No, they are. We're not talking about absolute perf/watt with RT. The RT performance of an architecture is the relative performance hit from raw raster. As illustrated in the charts below.

Spoiler: RT Perf

 

[gdansk]

No, they are. We're not talking about absolute perf/watt with RT. The RT performance of an architecture is the relative performance hit from raw raster. As illustrated in the charts below.

No, even if they made a reticle limit DG2-1024 at 450W they'd still be behind the 7900 XTX in raytracing performance. So-called architectural advantage does not exist if you can't build bigger. It doesn't exist so they're not number 2. Same thing with AMD saying one of the advantages of their multi-chip architecture is that they could build a supermassive 400mm + 8 MCD RDNA3 chip to match the 4090. OK cool, but they didn't so it's whiteboard cope & dreams and they stay #2.

To summarize: if your raster performance is 0.5x RDNA3 per area on iso process it doesn't matter that you have -23% RT performance and they have -45% you're still 0.7x RT performance per area on iso process. Their raster is just really, really bad.

 

[adroc_thurston]

they are No.2 in upscaling (XeSS)

Doesn't matter?

also in raytracing.

Doesn't matter?
But a 406mm^2 die being the perf of 204mm^2 at higher power sure does.

if there is virtually no performance hit on enabling RT.

that's never happening, RTRT is inherently pretty tough.

 

[itsmydamnation]

I feel like this thread needs the AMD MOAR CORES meme updated with but muh package.