Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+4+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[Joe NYC]

Only because of the backtracking via exemptions/carve outs. Dullard has a valid point backed up by the timeline of events. I know because I pay attention and remember it happening.

Nothing happened in regard to tariffs on these specific goods.

There may have been a serious drama in tariffs on socks and underwear, but I have not paid close attention to those. We talk about semiconductors here.

I sincerely doubt you paid attention more attentively than I have, because I have found out that there were no actual changes. And seems that you have not found that out yourself.

Back to original topic of CPU demand, and Intel comments that they have noticed what may have been an upswing in demand in Q1 and Q2 related to tariff rumors or expectations.

That could be real. People may act certain way because of wrong expectations or because they were fooled. In other words, fiction people believe may feed back into reality when people act on false information.

In contrast to Intel's comments about tariff affecting buying, AMD said they have not seen anything tariff related in their sales.

Channels are currently still stuffed for laptops.

This is what I find contradictory to Intel statements, from earnings calls and from investor webcasts. Intel quite unequivocally says they have a shortage nearly across the board. They say Intel could sell more client and server CPUs if they had more capacity (or inventories).

So, somebody is asking Intel to sell them more CPUs. If both OEMs and channel were stuffed, they would instead be reducing buying to reduce inventories.

 

[mmaenpaa]

Nothing happened in regard to tariffs on these specific goods.

There may have been a serious drama in tariffs on socks and underwear, but I have not paid close attention to those. We talk about semiconductors here.

I sincerely doubt you paid attention more attentively than I have, because I have found out that there were no actual changes. And seems that you have not found that out yourself.

Back to original topic of CPU demand, and Intel comments that they have noticed what may have been an upswing in demand in Q1 and Q2 related to tariff rumors or expectations.

That could be real. People may act certain way because of wrong expectations or because they were fooled. In other words, fiction people believe may feed back into reality when people act on false information.

In contrast to Intel's comments about tariff affecting buying, AMD said they have not seen anything tariff related in their sales.



This is what I find contradictory to Intel statements, from earnings calls and from investor webcasts. Intel quite unequivocally says they have a shortage nearly across the board. They say Intel could sell more client and server CPUs if they had more capacity (or inventories).

So, somebody is asking Intel to sell them more CPUs. If both OEMs and channel were stuffed, they would instead be reducing buying to reduce inventories.

One of major OEMs sent us an email about shortages & price hikes:

"We are currently facing ongoing CPU supply shortages, with demand exceeding available manufacturing capacity. As a result, delivery timelines and the availability of certain configurations may be affected.
At the same time, component costs—especially for DRAM and NAND/SSD storage—continue to rise due to limited supply, shifts in wafer allocation toward higher‑value products, and increasing demand from hyperscale and AI workloads. These CPU availability constraints and memory and storage cost pressures are significant and impacting the entire industry."

 

[511]

This is what I find contradictory to Intel statements, from earnings calls and from investor webcasts. Intel quite unequivocally says they have a shortage nearly across the board. They say Intel could sell more client and server CPUs if they had more capacity (or inventories).

Intel is taking L here to not take the margin hit cause they have spare capacity on Intel 4/3/18A

 

[Joe NYC]

I think Intel has thrown profitability out the window in an effort to "get back in the game" before it's too late. Expensive process development, risky node transitions, multiple architecture changes, etc.

Intel basically can't afford to slip in mobile CPUs. That would be one explanation why Intel has shorter cadence between generations. Even if it is costly.

But there is another argument: Both Intel and AMD lag behind Apple in mobile. So there is a perfectly valid reason for Intel to spend extra to catch up, and it is a head scratcher why AMD does not.

If AMD released a newer Zen 5 mobile chip an N3P chips with RDNA4 in Q4 2025 to Q1 2026, that would show serious effort equal to Intel's effort.

But, as you say, it would then reduce profitability, reduced ROI.

I can't fault AMD's strategy. Focus on DC where the profits are high and you don't need a metric crap ton of wafers to fulfill the market. Trickle down the tech and process to the lower margin markets as it becomes cost effective to do so.

Yeah, also about focus and priorities. Notebook CPU has to be Intel's priority number 1. For AMD, it is at best #3.

It remains to be seen if AMD can keep focus on number of divisions and sectors simultaneously. The AI bubble is seriously testing that

 

[Joe NYC]

One of major OEMs sent us an email about shortages & price hikes:

"We are currently facing ongoing CPU supply shortages, with demand exceeding available manufacturing capacity. As a result, delivery timelines and the availability of certain configurations may be affected.
At the same time, component costs—especially for DRAM and NAND/SSD storage—continue to rise due to limited supply, shifts in wafer allocation toward higher‑value products, and increasing demand from hyperscale and AI workloads. These CPU availability constraints and memory and storage cost pressures are significant and impacting the entire industry."

You may notice, no mention tariffs.

MLID, Gamers Nexus, cable TV can freely lie about tariffs, spin TACO tales to an eager audience of fools, but an actual corporation filing a statement with SEC can't lie.

But that statement from an OEM is consistent with what Intel is publicly saying and contradicts that the channel is stuffed.

Which also mean that the channel can only act as a buffer for so long. The sold units will have to be replaced with new units, and those new units will start to be impacted by increased BOM. Quicker than people may anticipate.

 

[Joe NYC]

Intel is taking L here to not take the margin hit cause they have spare capacity on Intel 4/3/18A

Intel in fact said as much. That they are planning to increase prices of Raptor, offer discounts on higher end product lines not in short supply, in an attempt to shift the demand that way. Which can result in margin hit.

I am slowly beginning to accept @adroc_thurston point, that OEMs just want the cheap stuff. It will be a challenge for both Intel and AMD to convince them to buy and then push expensive / premium CPUs in mobile space.

My expectation is that OEMs may offer the high end Panther iGPUs on their websites, as customization features, but none of those laptops will make it to retail or to corporate sales. All of those will be the low end GPUs.

Which brings up related challenge, how can both Intel and AMD convince end customers and OEMs to shift from NVidia dGPUs to fancy high powered iGPUs that both Intel and AMD are going to be promoting.

Specifically, in shifting the $s that used to go to NVidia to the CPU makers, without simply destroying the value.

 

[Schmide]

Referring back to quantity of retardation on Internet that led you to believe in this fairy tale is not an argument.

Tell me exactly the history of changes of tariffs paid in last 12 months on goods I mentioned. You can take a staple of goods that are widely discussed on these boards:
- CPU
- motherboard
- GPU
- assembled laptop
- mobile phone

List me the history of tariff changes in last 12 months.



No, I am talking about facts about tariffs.



Ok, maybe I should have been more sympathetic. I am sorry that you too fell victim to lies and fairy tales.

If I were you, I would trace steps back your steps and find the villains responsible. Find those who victimized you, those who fooled you, and hold them responsible.

MLID is surely one of them. I know, since I watch all his videos. While he is good on leaks, he was fueling the tariff hysteria and confused the hell out of many PC buyers / gaming hardware enthusiasts.

Trump's Tariffs were ruled illegal. Generally because they were not based on an "unusual or extraordinary threat" . Soon to reach the supreme court. You're carving out a niche list that ironically does not have memory in it. Strange? As for assembling your data. I'm not here to do the bean counting. I can say that I remember the base tariffs to china were originally 10% and doubling to 20%. Fine I'll look it up. Assembled memory from china was hit with the mid-April 20-25% that peaked at 125-145% before being negotiated down. (reciprocally)

In the news now the term seems to be approximately 150 billion more was collected relatively to tariff levels imposed in the first Trump administration. They will have to refund that if the Supreme Court rules against them. Regardless of the outcome, extra tariffs were imposed.

If you're going to make a list. Please include the computer related items that were heavy tariffed. PSU, cases, steal, aluminum, fans, etc.

 

[Joe NYC]

Fine I'll look it up. Assembled memory from china was hit with the mid-April 20-25% that peaked at 125-145% before being negotiated down. (reciprocally)

But nothing was paid.

In the news now the term seems to be approximately 150 billion more was collected relatively to tariff levels imposed in the first Trump administration. They will have to refund that if the Supreme Court rules against them. Regardless of the outcome, extra tariffs were imposed.

BSing about something and paying cash for tariffs are 2 different universes.

So, you found nothing, as I expected. You were fooled.

If you're going to make a list. Please include the computer related items that were heavy tariffed. PSU, cases, steal, aluminum, fans, etc.

I said there may have been drama in tariffs on socks and underwear. If you want to add metal or plastic product to that, fine. That is a category of goods that were tariffed, which I am not disputing

But the subject here are computer and semiconductor related products, where many people were fooled to believe there were tariffs going back and forth, while none of that happened in reality.

 

[DavidC1]

Which brings up related challenge, how can both Intel and AMD convince end customers and OEMs to shift from NVidia dGPUs to fancy high powered iGPUs that both Intel and AMD are going to be promoting.

Specifically, in shifting the $s that used to go to NVidia to the CPU makers, without simply destroying the value.

The mainstream lines like Strix Point and Pantherlake can always do that using what iGPUs do best - lower prices, but it will be limited in how far up they can penetrate. When Nvidia moves to similar process with next generation GPUs, it would also benefit nicely.

When it comes to Strix Halo or NVL-AX, that's a different story, and yes Nvidia will be stiff competition at the least. AMD did a lot better market-wise and technically than Intel's Iris Pro lines, but overall it's still almost nonexistent compared to rest of the market. Also the halo iGPUs have a bit of a chicken or the egg problem where they are obviously doing this to make more money, so we can't expect them to be cheap. Intel even with the Iris parts, they were charging $100-$150 on top of the highest priced ultramobile SKU through customization options. There are people that will do so, but how many that really do it because of gaming performance?

Apple also has the mindshare on the premium laptop space. So it's Nvidia on graphics and Apple on premium computers.

 

[511]

Intel in fact said as much. That they are planning to increase prices of Raptor, offer discounts on higher end product lines not in short supply, in an attempt to shift the demand that way. Which can result in margin hit.

The only higher end line Intel has that is not bottleneck is their own Fabs.

I am slowly beginning to accept @adroc_thurston point, that OEMs just want the cheap stuff. It will be a challenge for both Intel and AMD to convince them to buy and then push expensive / premium CPUs in mobile space.

My expectation is that OEMs may offer the high end Panther iGPUs on their websites, as customization features, but none of those laptops will make it to retail or to corporate sales. All of those will be the low end GPUs.

PTL Has SKU with 4+0+4/+4+8+4 + 4Xe3 that should be available and not part of N3/N4 Family so Intel is sorted there also WCL is 2+4 18A die with N6 PCH and Intel's Fab is not at the peak so they can run hot lots but will they that's the question.

Which brings up related challenge, how can both Intel and AMD convince end customers and OEMs to shift from NVidia dGPUs to fancy high powered iGPUs that both Intel and AMD are going to be promoting.

Intel can do that they still have OEM Hold and PTL will just allow OEMs to bypass 3050/4050 for low end where they are stuck with 30-35W TDP which honestly if the iGPU is as powerful which it is cause several YouTubers has benchmarked the iGPU.

Specifically, in shifting the $s that used to go to NVidia to the CPU makers, without simply destroying the value.

Not sure

Apple also has the mindshare on the premium laptop space. So it's Nvidia on graphics and Apple on premium computers.

Apple gets away with so many stuff that Intel/AMD can't they have to support so many SKUs and than there is OEM Variation with the design even Nvidia doesn't get away as much as Apple Does.

 

[fastandfurious6]

I'm not sure if PTL handhelds make sense

- everyone who wanted handheld PC already got one
- zen2/STX/lunar handhelds not going away

PTL will be priced much higher than Lunar

at that price better buy Halo

 

[fastandfurious6]

basically Intel really trying to push "CPU dominance" narrative with timed launch of a strong iGPU in a weak CPU PTL package lol

they exploit the time gap between AMD generations with STX being almost 2 years old (has way stronger CPU)


the real CPU reviews will be comical especially MT

 

[DAPUNISHER]

- everyone who wanted handheld PC already got one

If we do play out this assertion as accurate, it still fails to factor in the present derpanomics. A handheld with a dock is looking a lot more attractive as a gaming solution, than they did only a few months ago.

 

[fastandfurious6]

Proper dock that enables "desktop mode" power will be the total end of desktops

Basically in 2027 Medusa Halo the flagship #1 cpu in world should be in a handheld that can run as desktop


Intel is nowhere near that point

 

[hemedans]

I'm not sure if PTL handhelds make sense

- everyone who wanted handheld PC already got one
- zen2/STX/lunar handhelds not going away

PTL will be priced much higher than Lunar

at that price better buy Halo

2P-8E-4LPE is practical approach and would be upgrade over all current CPU in handheld, probably would be cheaper than lunar lake too, At least B360 version.

 

[511]

2P-8E-4LPE is practical approach and would be upgrade over all current CPU in handheld, probably would be cheaper than lunar lake too, At least B360 version.

2+8+4LP-E is still 12C iGPU should have been 8+4LPE but it is what it is

 

[Schmide]

But nothing was paid.

Your argument is basically a Red Herring. Pushing it to chase exempted items. Concluding that that will nullify the whole tariff situation.

BSing about something and paying cash for tariffs are 2 different universes.

So, you found nothing, as I expected. You were fooled.

Money was paid. It was EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY (best Trump impression) If you had a container in port, you paid. Did you not live through March to May 25?

I am sure you didn't watch the Gamers Nexus piece.

I said there may have been drama in tariffs on socks and underwear. If you want to add metal or plastic product to that, fine. That is a category of goods that were tariffed, which I am not disputing

I wise man in P&N once said. I never joke about socks.

You still gloss over memory. (purposefully?) The whole situation made assembly move from China to Vietnam. This might cause a bit of uncertainty.

But the subject here are computer and semiconductor related products, where many people were fooled to believe there were tariffs going back and forth, while none of that happened in reality.

No the subject is tariffs as a whole. If you pigeon enough I'm sure you can build an argument to poke holes in the situation. Again that does not nullify it.

The following general conjecture. If you disrupt the market, it will cause uncertainty. Not knowing what is about to happen causes panic. I'm sure corporations are hedging their inventory to mitigate either outcome of the Supreme Court's decision on the legality of the tariffs.

 

[hemedans]

2+8+4LP-E is still 12C iGPU should have been 8+4LPE but it is what it is

According to Videocardz G3 will have B360 (10 x Xe3) and G3 extreme will have B380 (12 x Xe3), all version have same Cpu.

https://videocardz.com/newz/exclusive-intel-readies-core-g3-extreme-and-core-g3-panther-lake-chips-for-gaming-handhelds-featuring-12-and-10-xe3-gpu-cores

 

[511]

According to Videocardz G3 will have B360 (10 x Xe3) and G3 extreme will have B380 (12 x Xe3), all version have same Cpu.

https://videocardz.com/newz/exclusive-intel-readies-core-g3-extreme-and-core-g3-panther-lake-chips-for-gaming-handhelds-featuring-12-and-10-xe3-gpu-cores

That is a nice way to get rid of bins and handheld is perfect for that

 

[ToTTenTranz]

I'm not sure if PTL handhelds make sense

- everyone who wanted handheld PC already got one
- zen2/STX/lunar handhelds not going away

PTL will be priced much higher than Lunar

PTL handhelds make full sense in the way that AMD never really launched a worthwhile successor to the Z1E that launched in devices that are now turning 3 years old.
The Z2E only has marginally better performance at ~25W.

The new PTL G3E should have about twice the gaming performance of Z1E, is probably coming bundled with at least 24GB RAM as 16GB RAM is arguably the biggest problem of early Z1E handhelds and it has a modern architecture supported by Intel to have the latest ML-based upscalers.


If no major company annouces a STX Halo handheld this year, I'm most probably going to upgrade my Legion Go towards a Panther Lake handheld from MSI or Microsoft.

at that price better buy Halo

Where are those Halo handhelds? You either import a Chinese one from OneXPlayer or AYANEO, pay ~30% tariffs on top of those and then pray to god you'll never need any post sales assistance, or you're out of options.

A handheld with a dock is looking a lot more attractive as a gaming solution, than they did only a few months ago.

IMO Intel has quite the potential if they include a Thunderbolt 5 controller in the Panther Lake G3 platform and also sell the platform for a TB5 eGPU dock using big Battlemage.

 

[Magio]

IMO Intel has quite the potential if they include a Thunderbolt 5 controller in the Panther Lake G3 platform and also sell the platform for a TB5 eGPU dock using big Battlemage.

Honestly to me that sounds like the kind of things enthusiasts clamor about wanting but that would sell 25 units total in the real world. Certainly not something that makes or breaks a handheld APU line's chances of success.

I think the true make or break for PTL as a handheld platform will be its perform at and below 25W. We know PTL is class leading and a big upgrade over Strix Point at 45W but we don't know much about lower TDPs yet. Proper handhelds will be in that range so that's where it needs to perform.

 

[511]

Honestly to me that sounds like the kind of things enthusiasts clamor about wanting but that would sell 25 units total in the real world. Certainly not something that makes or breaks a handheld APU line's chances of success.

I think the true make or break for PTL as a handheld platform will be its perform at and below 25W. We know PTL is class leading and a big upgrade over Strix Point at 45W but we don't know much about lower TDPs yet. Proper handhelds will be in that range so that's where it needs to perform.

We need reviewers to test that and half the time many reviewers fall flat on testing TDP outside few

 

[Magio]

We need reviewers to test that and half the time many reviewers fall flat on testing TDP outside few

Well at least we know the new XPS 14 has a 25W TDP (and the 16 is 35W), so when it gets tested that will give us an idea.

 

[Joe NYC]

The only higher end line Intel has that is not bottleneck is their own Fabs.

That would presumably be Meteor Lake, which should have the least of the shortages. I think Intel identified Intel 10 and Intel 7 as having the worst shortages, which would lead Intel 3 and 4 with better situation.

Lunar Lake, Arrow Lake are subject to Intel being able to obtain more capacity from TSMC, which may be a problem, since (based on some rumors), N3 is the most oversubscribed node, and TSMC stopped taking orders for it for new projects.

PTL Has SKU with 4+0+4/+4+8+4 + 4Xe3 that should be available and not part of N3/N4 Family so Intel is sorted there also WCL is 2+4 18A die with N6 PCH and Intel's Fab is not at the peak so they can run hot lots but will they that's the question.

It's subject to how fast Intel can ramp the production. It does not go from 0 to 30k wafers per month in weeks or months. It takes years.

TSMC, which is the champion of fab construction and ramping production is still not at 100% after > 1 year in production in Arizona. (But already getting close, reportedly at 25k of 30k potential capacity). And that's with TSMC with no constraints on cash and equipment deliveries.

Intel can do that they still have OEM Hold and PTL will just allow OEMs to bypass 3050/4050 for low end where they are stuck with 30-35W TDP which honestly if the iGPU is as powerful which it is cause several YouTubers has benchmarked the iGPU.

That's possible, but Intel be able to charge extra, by the amount of = to price of 3050 / 4050?

OEM's will, no doubt, take it, if it is free, the question is if they will pay extra.

 

[jpiniero]

That's possible, but Intel be able to charge extra, by the amount of = to price of 3050 / 4050?

Before the ram price surge there were like $800 laptops with the 5050. Lenovo still has their crappy gaming laptop brand with 5050 for under $1000 (for now)