Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+4+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[Farfle]

It's always possible (just like any low probability bet) that you get the big payoff

What other bet could Intel have made? 18A is their crown jewel, and Panther Lake is their best foot forward on it. The only other 'bet' would have been to go the way of AMD and Global Foundries, and marry their future products' success solely with TSMC, something the US Government would never have let happen.

At the end of the day, one has to ask themselves is Intel (now) primarily a foundry or a products company? I would argue they've been trying like heck to transition into the former, and they're hoping Panther Lake is a "good enough" effort of the latter to get them through this transition, until their Foundry is good enough to bring in the likes of Apple, NVIDIA, Qualcomm, and even AMD.

 

[DavidC1]

Pretty much every OS does what you described except Windows.

Really shows how behind Microsoft is.

Older OSes are better, but battery life shows that every OS including Windows 7 and 8.1 is bloated in comparison to competitors like SteamOS.

What other bet could Intel have made? 18A is their crown jewel, and Panther Lake is their best foot forward on it. The only other 'bet' would have been to go the way of AMD and Global Foundries, and marry their future products' success solely with TSMC, something the US Government would never have let happen.

Doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. Plans fail including those of government, and many times. It still could fail. Intel is not out of the woods yet. Their own process is barely keeping their own design teams. Look at Novalake.

 

[jdubs03]

Once we get the reviews showing performance and power data, we can come to the conclusion on whether 18A is the real deal or not. It shouldn’t be too hard to figure out.

 

[Magio]

The reborn XPS laptops are quite expensive.

The whole deal about who's better may not matter as they may all be priced into the stratosphere.

There are already listing of other laptops with the same chips as those XPSs for 700$ less, with comparable specs otherwise. XPS is XPS. A Strix Halo XPS would probably start at 3k.

 

[DavidC1]

There are already listing of other laptops with the same chips as those XPSs for 700$ less, with comparable specs otherwise. XPS is XPS. A Strix Halo XPS would probably start at 3k.

I think there's one laptop now that's $1300. The listings are rare enough not be able to make a conclusion.

The increased RAM prices will trickle down over the course of the year.

 

[Farfle]

Once we get the reviews showing performance and power data, we can come to the conclusion on whether 18A is the real deal or not. It shouldn’t be too hard to figure out.

I'm really looking forward to battery tests. I think Panther Lake will do ok in this regard, but it has big shoes to fill next to Lunar Lake, which was made entirely with TSMC silicon. To me, this is 18A's biggest test, even though that problem has has more to do with Products than Fab (x86 vs ARM). Intel needs to demonstrate with 18A that it can produce a product as power efficient as TSMC can. It's been five years since the Apple M1 revolution and x86 is still trying to catch up on efficiency. Qualcomm more or less has and the Windows-on-ARM compatibility issues are growing smaller every day ...

 

[mikk]

I think there's one laptop now that's $1300. The listings are rare enough not be able to make a conclusion.

The increased RAM prices will trickle down over the course of the year.

There are two laptops: https://www.phoronix.com/news/MSI-Core-Ultra-X7-358H-1299


I found some more gaming benchmarks from club386 on B390 and 890M:

I just benchmarked Intel's new Panther Lake GPU, and AMD should be worried | Club386

Intel's new Arc B390 GPU can happily run Cyberpunk 2077 at 1080p, even with ray tracing, and there's support for 4x multi frame gen too.

www.club386.com

 

[511]

I'm really looking forward to battery tests. I think Panther Lake will do ok in this regard, but it has big shoes to fill next to Lunar Lake, which was made entirely with TSMC silicon. To me, this is 18A's biggest test, even though that problem has has more to do with Products than Fab (x86 vs ARM). Intel needs to demonstrate with 18A that it can produce a product as power efficient as TSMC can. It's been five years since the Apple M1 revolution and x86 is still trying to catch up on efficiency. Qualcomm more or less has and the Windows-on-ARM compatibility issues are growing smaller every day ...

No one really buy WoA if you want ARM might as well get MacBook .
The problem with x86 is they are still not focusing on Integer Performance much while they have arguably the best SIMD Implementation available in CPU Right now.

 

[poke01]

The problem with x86 is they are still not focusing on Integer Performance much while they have arguably the best SIMD Implementation available in CPU Right now

x86 does focus on Int and FP performance otherwise, AMD wouldn’t be number 2 on David Huang’s SPEC chart.

Let’s see later this year when everyone is on N2 and I think AMD will be number 1.

 

[Doug S]

Channels are currently still stuffed for laptops. As inventory draws down and new orders are placed, retail pricing will be rising. We're already seeing words to that effect from OEMs as they will either reduce base configurations to hit price points, or let retail prices rise as needed for target margin.

The tariff chaos may have helped here. When when Trump TACOed and put a 90 day hold on the China tariffs everyone shipped as much as they could to beat that "deadline" and insure sufficient supply for the holidays.

I think what people will find over time as supplies dwindle is that there will be a lot of PCs available, just not necessarily the particular config they want - even when they use DIMMs they are typically shipped with a given config and aren't changed once they enter the US. So maybe the 16 GB and 32 GB SKUs are sold out, so you have to choose between paying for 64 GB when you don't need nearly that much or 8 GB and upgrade it yourself. Or you can find the RAM config you want with a low end CPU, but in the CPU you want you only models loaded to the gills and costing $3500 are left.

 

[DKR]

Intel is also losing MOST of the high margin client business (gaming, HDT) to AMD.

I think AMD's client business will feel more pain from increased memory prices as they are very consumer focused - consumer laptop (low enterprise presence) & DIY desktop gaming. Intel's client business being more oriented towards OEM & Enterprise is going to shield them a bit better. Win 11 refresh also favors Intel more again due to enterprise exposure.

 

[regen1]

I never understood why Intel tried to push 450mm in the first place. At the time (i.e. 2012) Intel had four full scale production fabs at any given time.

We have to consider that apart from the possibility of both being developed and used in similar timeline there was also the aspect of only one of them being realized in or around the timeline (G450C albeit formed in 2011 the effort for collaboration on 450mm had started years before).
Add to that the uncertainty regarding EUV materializing particularly within the timeline, even during 2014-15 many from the industry weren't very confident.

In 2013, ASML wasn't expected to deliver 450mm version of EUV machines at least before 2018. After what seems TSMC's pullout from 450mm at SEMICON West 2013, any major effort towards 450mm wafer fall apart. Intel also had to pull resources from 450mm in 2014. There wasn't much reason left for ASML to do R&D on 450mm version EUV machines when it was already resource constrained.
Even ignoring all that, 450mm EUV machines feasibility, both engineering and economical combined with timing would've been a huge ask.

At the time (i.e. 2012) Intel had four full scale production fabs at any given time. If they had 450 mm they'd get more than twice as many chips per wafer so assuming the same number of wafers processed they'd need half the fabs - or only two. That would create logistical headaches for them.

Perhaps they wanted to expand more or enter into other chips' (smartphone chips, ASICs, etc. later on IDM 1.0) manufacturing where capacity could've been beneficial excluding the 450mm wafer's gains in cost/yield.

It wouldn't have helped much in the end, because EUV has become one of the big cost drivers and if you double your wafer area you halve the throughput of your EUV steps since the power of the light source is its main limitation. Yes you get the same throughput in wafer wide steps like depo and etch so you benefit costwise there but I'm not sure if gaining nothing in litho cost per chip would have made the whole 450mm effort worth it in hindsight.

Yeah, the hindsight. Kinda hard to gauge how the economics would've worked, may be it could have been still fine enough(?) but if goals were achieved, from an engineering PoV it could have simplified a lot of stuff. But those are big ifs and unknowns.

 

[regen1]

Includes some talk on new stuff added to PresentMon(Animation Error).

 

[poke01]

https://videocardz.com/newz/exclusive-intel-readies-core-g3-panther-lake-for-gaming-handhelds-up-to-12-cpu-cores-and-12-xe3-gpu-cores

Nice. We finally get proper new iGPUs. AMD can go and sell its N4 RDNA3.5 SoCs to suckers

 

[511]

x86 does focus on Int and FP performance otherwise, AMD wouldn’t be number 2 on David Huang’s SPEC chart.

Relatively to the area spend have you seen the investment in die they do

Let’s see later this year when everyone is on N2 and I think AMD will be number 1.

Doubt

 

[poke01]

Relatively to the area spend have you seen the investment in die they do

Yeah very little compared to arm and yet x86 is good.

 

[poke01]

Yeah very little compared to arm and yet x86 is good.

Obviously this only applies to desktop CPUs. the lack of focus on amount of areas given to Interger perf really hurts when the clock speed is very low see, Strix Point or Panther Lake.

So I hoping Unified core fixes this, this should be one of the goals

 

[Joe NYC]

The tariff chaos may have helped here. When when Trump TACOed and put a 90 day hold on the China tariffs everyone shipped as much as they could to beat that "deadline" and insure sufficient supply for the holidays.

This whole topic is retarded / lying reporters (and people like MLID), who have no clue "report" to other retards, and then these retards think they have some understanding.

This applies whenever you hear the word TACO, it means the above is in full effect.

All of the electronic / computer equipment is exempt from tariffs. Even if a tariff is theoretically in place, but these goods are exempt, it does not matter what the tariff is, if the tariff is in place at all, if the goods are exempt.

And just recently, like a week ago, there was an announcement of moratorium on semiconductor related tariffs for another 18 months.

So, if there was ever any tariff related buying, of computer and semiconductor products, it was just retards being confused by lying / retarded press.

MLID had maybe 2 or 3 videos spreading tariff retardation this year.

Literally nothing took place on this topic this year, all of the nonsense is entirely contained in minds of dumb people who listen to other dumb people. That's if you believe in theory that it is stupidity, rather than malice.

If you believe in malice theory, then it is dumb people falling for deliberate lies of media / influencers.

I think what people will find over time as supplies dwindle is that there will be a lot of PCs available, just not necessarily the particular config they want - even when they use DIMMs they are typically shipped with a given config and aren't changed once they enter the US. So maybe the 16 GB and 32 GB SKUs are sold out, so you have to choose between paying for 64 GB when you don't need nearly that much or 8 GB and upgrade it yourself. Or you can find the RAM config you want with a low end CPU, but in the CPU you want you only models loaded to the gills and costing $3500 are left.

There were some confusing signals, especially from Intel, about shortages. Which is hard to reconcile with channel being stuffed.

But when Intel said that, there was no sign of memory price hikes. The memory shortage / price hikes just spiraled out of control in last month or so. We will get some updates within next month, from TSMC, Intel and AMD about the supply / demand situation.

 

[dullard]

There were some confusing signals, especially from Intel, about shortages. Which is hard to reconcile with channel being stuffed.

But when Intel said that, there was no sign of memory price hikes. The memory shortage / price hikes just spiraled out of control in last month or so. We will get some updates within next month, from TSMC, Intel and AMD about the supply / demand situation.

Psst: Memory shortage knowledge has been reported on well, well before Intel mentioned shortages. And your comment is just factually wrong. Yes, prices of the final end product didn't massively increase until later in 2025. But the precursors were already in short supply and spiking in price well, well before that. DRAM already started increasing in price in June 2025.


That is just one graph, all memory started increasing in price between June 2025 and Sept 2025. https://pcpartpicker.com/trends/price/memory/

Apr 2025: https://medium.com/@Elongated_musk/how-the-chip-shortage-never-really-ended-fbcc663aa3bd "How the Chip Shortage Never Really Ended...substrate materials have emerged as bottlenecks, keeping critical tech products in short supply"

May 2025: https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...y-disruptions-for-nand-flash-controllers-ssds "shipments of raw materials for the production of BT substrate will be heavily delayed due to low supply."

July 2025: https://www.trendforce.com/news/202...eye-20-hike-amid-ai-boom-and-supply-shortage/ "Meanwhile, the report suggests that rising cost pressures are beginning to hit even mid- and low-end products, with memory substrate prices climbing in particular."

 

[dullard]

This applies whenever you hear the word TACO, it means the above is in full effect.

All of the electronic / computer equipment is exempt from tariffs. Even if a tariff is theoretically in place, but these goods are exempt, it does not matter what the tariff is, if the tariff is in place at all, if the goods are exempt.

And just recently, like a week ago, there was an announcement of moratorium on semiconductor related tariffs for another 18 months.

So, let me get this straight. Why are there electronics exempt from some tariffs after tariffs were announced? Why was there an announcement for more tariffs that had to be under a moratorium for 18 months? Isn't announcing tariffs then making an exemption then announcing even more tariffs and then announcing a moratorium the exact definition of TACO?

It certainly isn't all Trump and it isn't all tariffs. Nexperia, AI, data centers, etc. all are playing a major role.

 

[Joe NYC]

Psst: Memory shortage knowledge has been reported on well, well before Intel mentioned shortages. And your comment is just factually wrong. Yes, prices of the final end product didn't massively increase until later in 2025. But the precursors were already in short supply and spiking in price well, well before that. DRAM already started increasing in price in June 2025.

View attachment 136430
That is just one graph, all memory started increasing in price between June 2025 and Sept 2025. https://pcpartpicker.com/trends/price/memory/

Apr 2025: https://medium.com/@Elongated_musk/how-the-chip-shortage-never-really-ended-fbcc663aa3bd "How the Chip Shortage Never Really Ended...substrate materials have emerged as bottlenecks, keeping critical tech products in short supply"

May 2025: https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...y-disruptions-for-nand-flash-controllers-ssds "shipments of raw materials for the production of BT substrate will be heavily delayed due to low supply."

July 2025: https://www.trendforce.com/news/202...eye-20-hike-amid-ai-boom-and-supply-shortage/ "Meanwhile, the report suggests that rising cost pressures are beginning to hit even mid- and low-end products, with memory substrate prices climbing in particular."

Intel earnings call was at around end of October, and the DDR5 price started to spike, but it is possible that Intel interpreted that spike as a consequence of increased client demand due to forced upgrade to Windows 11.

But if you look at DDR5 pricing after the end of October, there is nearly a doubling of the price within the span of a single quarter, from the end of October to today.

 

[Joe NYC]

So, let me get this straight. Why are there electronics exempt from some tariffs after tariffs were announced? Why was there an announcement for more tariffs that had to be under a moratorium for 18 months? Isn't announcing tariffs then making an exemption then announcing even more tariffs and then announcing a moratorium the exact definition of TACO?

It certainly isn't all Trump and it isn't all tariffs. Nexperia, AI, data centers, etc. all are playing a major role.

I see you also fell victim to this widespread hysteria / retardation that's taking place.

Absolutely nothing happened in last 12 months, as far as tariffs paid on semi / compute / PC electronics etc.

Searching MLID videos, there are 13 hits for the word "tariff" in last 1 year, while there was zero change in tariffs paid. Beyond YouTube influencers searching for clicks, there is a legacy Boomer media on cable TV channels where they spin these fables. I don't know which one of the 2 you fell for.

 

[Schmide]

I see you also fell victim to this widespread hysteria / retardation that's taking place.

Absolutely nothing happened in last 12 months, as far as tariffs paid on semi / compute / PC electronics etc.

Searching MLID videos, there are 13 hits for the word "tariff" in last 1 year, while there was zero change in tariffs paid. Beyond YouTube influencers searching for clicks, there is a legacy Boomer media on cable TV channels where they spin these fables. I don't know which one of the 2 you fell for.

Gaslight much. You're acting like it never happened. I guess Gamers Nexus is part of these influencers because they put out some darn good videos on the subject.

It's ok to have your opinions but painting the issue with such a broad dismissive brush looks poor. Using terms like retardation is even worse. You'll probably call me part of the woke mafia as well but I care not. I find your position sad.

 

[jdubs03]

I see you also fell victim to this widespread hysteria / retardation that's taking place.

Absolutely nothing happened in last 12 months, as far as tariffs paid on semi / compute / PC electronics etc.

Only because of the backtracking via exemptions/carve outs. Dullard has a valid point backed up by the timeline of events. I know because I pay attention and remember it happening.

 

[Joe NYC]

Gaslight much. You're acting like it never happened. I guess Gamers Nexus is part of these influencers because they put out some darn good videos on the subject.

Referring back to quantity of retardation on Internet that led you to believe in this fairy tale is not an argument.

Tell me exactly the history of changes of tariffs paid in last 12 months on goods I mentioned. You can take a staple of goods that are widely discussed on these boards:
- CPU
- motherboard
- GPU
- assembled laptop
- mobile phone

List me the history of tariff changes in last 12 months.

It's ok to have your opinions

No, I am talking about facts about tariffs.

but painting the issue with such a broad dismissive brush looks poor. Using terms like retardation is even worse. You'll probably call me part of the woke mafia as well but I care not. I find your position sad.

Ok, maybe I should have been more sympathetic. I am sorry that you too fell victim to lies and fairy tales.

If I were you, I would trace back your steps and find the villains responsible. Find those who victimized you, those who fooled you, and hold them responsible.

MLID is surely one of them. I know, since I watch all his videos. While he is good on leaks, he was fueling the tariff hysteria and confused the hell out of many PC buyers / gaming hardware enthusiasts.