Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+0+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[511]

I am not an expert on this but it seems that a lot of the required connectivity IP is available from third parties. Some is even available already laid out on specific nodes.

they are Mediatek/QCOM but the drivers and SW support is lacking

I am not sure that TB is available from third parties but BT and WiFi are.

TB is Intel propritery ..

Here is an announcement from Broadcom from last week.

“Wi-Fi 8 IP for license for Internet of Things (IoT), automotive, and mobile devices as a complement to the access ecosystem.”

Broadcom Introduces Industry's First Wi-Fi 8 Silicon Ecosystem Powering the AI Era

Broadcom Inc. today announced the industry's first Wi-Fi 8 silicon solutions for the broadband wireless edge ecosystem including residential gateways, enterprise access points, and smart mobile clients. Broadcom's Wi-Fi 8 solutions are purpose-built to address the stringent performance...

www.techpowerup.com

TSMC has OIP with a lot of third party IP already laid out on specific nodes.

They sure have but so does Intel

 

[poke01]

TB is Intel propritery ..

Not fully, Apple can make its own custom TB5 controllers but that is an unique relationship

 

[511]

Not fully, Apple can make its own custom TB5 controllers but that is an unique relationship

Yes but the license is still with Intel you need certification from Intel to qualify it as TB not from Apple and I am glad the license is with Intel instead of Apple.

 

[regen1]

OEM market is difficult to take cause you require a lot of efforts not just the best product and than there are other stuff people forget about Intel's Wi-Fi/BT/TB and other connectivity stuff that other vendor doesn't provide.

Along with those I/O and stuff, things like vPro for business/enterprise plus some other things for ecosystem. One of the biggest factor is volume in various categories. Contrast can be seen with launch, volume, availability at various price ranges for notebook chips of Zen5 and Arrow Lake even though on paper Zen5 launched considerably earlier(and HX 370 and AI 9 365 are strong SKUs).

 

[poke01]

Yes but the license is still with Intel you need certification from Intel to qualify it as TB not from Apple and I am glad the license is with Intel instead of Apple.

Intel made Thunderbolt, it’s fully theirs. Apple just helped and so they need the certification from Intel.

What I meant was TB controllers isn’t something that only Intel makes anymore. AMD can make their custom TB controllers like Apple does but they choose not too.

All our docks at my workplace are Dell Thunderbolt docks and they are so good. The TB spec is very nice much nicer than the USB spec. I bet some organisations buy laptops based on Thunderbolt port is available or not.

 

[adroc_thurston]

AMD can make their custom TB controllers like Apple does but they choose not too.

?
They do ship USB4 just fine.
What they don't do in-house is retimers.

 

[DavidC1]

It was Intel basically stuck on Cobalt and their Hyper Scaling when scaling became hard

They might have got it out in 2017 if they aimed for ~2x scaling max rather than doing 2.7x again on top of the 2.7x for 14nm that delayed it 6-9 months.

You know the real stupid part of all that? It benefitted Atom and probably their iGPU, but the regular Core chips only got the typical 2x gain. This is another example of the idiocy that started in 22nm with the non-existent low power focus. Another thing is you could say this is some sort of repeat they had with the Netburst clock speed delusion. Apparently Intel doesn't have enough people to tell them their visions of Grandeur is that just that --- an illusion.

True, Atom did really well eventually because of that, but it should have been a gradual thing over say a decade to get it suitable for Tablet/Phones, rather than doing it all at the same time. They wanted everything all at once and ended up getting nothing.

Intel made Thunderbolt, it’s fully theirs. Apple just helped and so they need the certification from Intel.

Apple certainly pushed Intel to do things they wouldn't have otherwise.

If Otellini wasn't there, instead of someone who saw Jobs' vision, they might have got the iPhone deal. Maybe eventually it would have fizzled out anyway, but it would have benefitted them immensely as a company, doing things they wouldn't have otherwise.

It was good they abandoned Intel Macs. Eventually you gotta give up on the friend that won't get up from the couch.

 

[perry mason]

Intel made Thunderbolt, it’s fully theirs. Apple just helped and so they need the certification from Intel.

What I meant was TB controllers isn’t something that only Intel makes anymore. AMD can make their custom TB controllers like Apple does but they choose not too.

All our docks at my workplace are Dell Thunderbolt docks and they are so good. The TB spec is very nice much nicer than the USB spec. I bet some organisations buy laptops based on Thunderbolt port is available or not.

Very astute comment. Thunderbolt support has become a standard feature and expectation for the high margin premium laptop market (where you spend 2k-6k). AMD loses many of the most desirable customers over this missing feature.

Middle market PC buyers often don’t appreciate exactly why M-series MacBooks are so popular with the programming and white collar crowd, but the connectivity is one of the secret sauces. Apple has its users spoiled for choice in the available Thunderbolt docks and the high speed, reliable devices this allows. Hard to move on from a MacBook Pro that supports dual 5k monitors through a one port dock at 60hz, a full speed Thunderbolt 4 external m.2 drive (in a portable housing) in another, and then a second SSD or backup drive, and numerous other devices in the dock at the same time.

USB-4 may be the same speed, but when you get into actual implementation, the extra validation is very important for reliable operation.

 

[coercitiv]

While having USB-C connectivity (video+data) is a must for a laptop I would buy today, I'm also at a loss as to why anyone would spend a fortune on a laptop + expensive monitors for a work environment and not also add a desktop to those monitors and a NAS in their home/office.

In other words I can appreciate a fast and stable TB connection that allows someone to adapt to a new environment in a pinch (meetings, traveling etc), but the examples given above are at direct odds with the idea of a modern and reliable solution for premium computing. When you have the money, an additional computing device and proper external storage is the way to go. No need to reconnect wires, better storage reliability.

Moreover, I can see people opting for Intel over AMD when factoring TB and WiFi as long as Intel offers similar performance and value for the rest of the platform, but I really don't see this matter for Mac vs. PC. If Apple had only USB-C to work with, they would make it work reliably and it would be good enough for Mac users, white collars too. TB would probably be dead though.

 

[511]

Intel has decent offering in Mobile and are available more than AMD with sometimes better features and without artificial vendor limitations(you won't get 5090 with AMD buy it with Intel).

 

[MoistOintment]

While having USB-C connectivity (video+data) is a must for a laptop I would buy today, I'm also at a loss as to why anyone would spend a fortune on a laptop + expensive monitors for a work environment and not also add a desktop to those monitors and a NAS in their home/office.

The whole point is that they want one device. It can behave as a desktop at home and in the office, can be transported between the two locations, and can be used outside of the home as well. Also, a NAS in this example is pretty much useless for anyone who isn't self-employed.

 

[coercitiv]

The whole point is that they want one device. It can behave as a desktop at home and in the office, can be transported between the two locations

And my point is this is the behavior of value seeking users, not people who buy very expensive laptops and dual 5k monitor setups. I understand there's a use case for people who want just one device (due to personal choice or work conditions) but the overlap between these people and the "dual 5k monitors + M2 external storage" is slim to none IMHO. The value seekers are fine with USB-C, TB is nice to have for them but may only be available out of their comfort range.

Also, a NAS in this example is pretty much useless for anyone who isn't self-employed.

And the external M2 storage via TB is more useful for business users?

 

[511]

TB is nice to have for them but may only be available out of their comfort range.

I have seen 700$ laptops have TB so it's not exactly out of comfort range for most people.

dual 5k monitors + M2 external storage

This is at point where you monitors will be as expensive as your laptops.

 

[coercitiv]

I have seen 700$ laptops have TB so it's not exactly out of comfort range for most people.

Like I already said, I do not dispute the value added by TB. I argued against the example, it's so narrow that the budget involved offers the user multiple other options. I think TB is a compelling feature, but not a make or break option.

In other news, Meteor Lake still has legs apparently:

https://videocardz.com/newz/lenovo-unveils-1-kg-lecoo-air-16-a-budget-16-inch-laptop-with-meteor-lake-cpu

 

[511]

Arrow and Meteor will soon be cut I think in favor of Panther they will try to upsell panther..

 

[dullard]

Arrow and Meteor will soon be cut I think in favor of Panther they will try to upsell panther..

I realize this chart is out of date, but Intel's plan originally was to keep ramping up Intel 4 wafer starts (such as Meteor Lake).

https://forums.anandtech.com/attachments/screenshot_20240321_034438_gallery-jpg.95889/

 

[LightningZ71]

Meteor Lake will live on as Arrow Lake U. Same package, but the CCD is now Intel 3 with a nice speed and efficiency bump. Panther Lake will take time to filter into the channels and displace Arrow Lake U and H.

 

[511]

I realize this chart is out of date, but Intel's plan originally was to keep ramping up Intel 4 wafer starts (such as Meteor Lake).

https://forums.anandtech.com/attachments/screenshot_20240321_034438_gallery-jpg.95889/

Intel 4/3 is used in

• GNR
• SRF
• PTL iGPU Tile
• GNR D IO Tile
• MTL/ARL-U CPU Tile
• NVL IO Tile

 

[511]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1980465970196976099

PTL GPU Benchmark Leak

 

[poke01]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1980465970196976099

PTL GPU Benchmark Leak

i can finally sleep in peace 😭😭

 

[511]

It's 51K should be 60K

 

[Magio]

So even tho this was a GPU bench, we can tentatively say X358H boosts to 4.8GHz in line with LNL's 258V which was the most common part.

It's 51K should be 60K

That's also gonna depend on what TDP it's being run at, but 60K would be 2x LNL, I don't expect to see that personally.

 

[511]

That's also gonna depend on what TDP it's being run at, but 60K would be 2x LNL, I don't expect to see that personally.

ARL-H was 40K .. and this has 1.5X Cores and higher frequency

 

[Philste]

ARL-H was 40K .. and this has 1.5X Cores and higher frequency

LNL was a big step back from MTL in GB6 Open CL, around 30k. Meanwhile it is 30% faster in games.

 

[poke01]

I would wait for 3D Mark or Blender.

Geekbench GPU is very good for AMD and Nvidia GPUs but not so much for Intels.