Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

		Intel Alder Lake - N	Intel Wildcat Lake	Intel Lunar Lake		Mediatek D9500
Launch Date		Q1-2023	Q2-2026 ?	Q3-2024		Q3-2025
Model		Intel N300	?	Core Ultra 7 268V		Dimensity 9500 5G
Dies		2	2	2		1
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		TSMC N3P
CPU		8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		C1 1+3+4
Threads		8	6	8		8
Max Clock		3.8 GHz	?	5 GHz
L3 Cache		6 MB	?	12 MB
TDP		7 W	Fanless ?	17 W		Fanless
Memory		64-bit LPDDR5-4800	64-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533		64-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size		16 GB	?	32 GB		24 GB ?
Bandwidth			~ 55 GB/s	136 GB/s		85.6 GB/s
GPU		UHD Graphics		Arc 140V		G1 Ultra
EU / Xe		32 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		12
Max Clock		1.25 GHz		2 GHz
NPU		NA	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		100 TOPS ?

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[511]

I don't think Intel is using Foveros packaging for Alder Lake N. Just 2 chips on substrate, as far as I can tell.

It's true that costs will go down, but with Foveros, they are starting from a much higher base.

Packing margin is still internal albeit only 10-20% plus 30-40% on homemade wafer plus 30-40% on product

 

[DavidC1]

It is simply 18A die + PCH on N6 with UCI-E for RPL-

Yea, then it's probably not much more expensive, if anything.

UCI-E is basically DMI.

 

[coercitiv]

Kinda' unrelated to Intel/PTL but very interesting development reported by Level1Tech during their recent Intel coverage:

Laptop makers have noticed that because of the forced Win 11 upgrades, a surprising number very large customers are electing to deploy Macs instead of new Win 11 laptops.

Spoiler: Timestamped source

 

[511]

Kinda' unrelated to Intel/PTL but very interesting development reported by Level1Tech during their recent Intel coverage:

Spoiler: Timestamped source

OEMs cheaps out on camera and QC and than surprise Pikachu face half of the problem is OEMs.

 

[DavidC1]

I just realized, that this whole time I thought Strix Halo killer was going to be used laptops and Nvidia lowering prices, but it may actually be Intel.

Right now there's a 3x gap between Arc 140V and Strix Halo. If it's 70% faster then that's going to go down to 70-100%. Wide availability, better battery life, much cheaper, may just be enough. The talk about Xe3 having optimizations in high polygon count and Hi-Z make me believe that weaknesses in the current architecture is going to be further addressed.

Kinda' unrelated to Intel/PTL but very interesting development reported by Level1Tech during their recent Intel coverage:

Oh so you are telling me that stupid choices do have ramifications? I will never upgrade to Windows 11. I thought officially approved spyware was bad on 10. I hope Valve gets a full desktop OS out. The interview about Gabe Newell said there was significant amount of Windows demand because of gaming. Do SteamOS well and they might actually topple Windows given enough time.

 

[Meteor Late]

Why are you so fixated on clock rates, especially for a mobile CPU? If Apple manages "only" 5.1 GHz for M6 on N2, will that be a failure of TSMC's technology?

You can throw stones at it if its performance underwhelms, but fixating on irrelevant details like clock rate is stupid.

Intel architecture is a speed demon compared to Apple, it's not remotely the same. If Intel abandoned that and achieved at least 20% IPC increase, then ok, but that's not the case here.

 

[coercitiv]

OEMs cheaps out on camera and QC and than surprise Pikachu face half of the problem is OEMs.

You really think very large companies switched to Macs because their webcams were better?! They could have gotten PC laptops with better cameras if that was really the issue, allowing them to preserve their existing infrastructure setup. What made them move is clearly more than that.

I don't want to derail the current discussion focused on PTL details, but if we see any further rumors on this topic, it may be worth coming back.

 

[branch_suggestion]

I just realized, that this whole time I thought Strix Halo killer was going to be used laptops and Nvidia lowering prices, but it may actually be Intel.

The Strix Halo killer is Medusa Halo.
Or especially Medusa Premium as a value proposition as it moves Strix Halo perf down to cheaper, lower power machines on normal laptop sockets.
No need to thank me, I do this for free.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

The Strix Halo killer is Medusa Halo.

The higher end versions of Nova Lake have that potential as well.

 

[511]

You really think very large companies switched to Macs because their webcams were better?! They could have gotten PC laptops with better cameras if that was really the issue, allowing them to preserve their existing infrastructure setup. What made them move is clearly more than that.

I don't want to derail the current discussion focused on PTL details, but if we see any further rumors on this topic, it may be worth coming back.

Not really but it's the price you are getting a better stuff with Mac for the price unless you strictly require windows not to mention win11 crapware.

 

[511]

The higher end versions of Nova Lake have that potential as well.

I mean NVL-AX can kill STX halo easily it's got a uArch update and more mem bw than STX-H

 

[mikk]

NVL-AX should be much stronger with 32 Xe3p cores.

 

[fastandfurious6]

View attachment 131711

probably the only thing keeping intel afloat is their marketing department... look at all this nonsense

 

[regen1]

NVL-AX should be much stronger with 32 Xe3p cores.

32 Xe3P ?? Should be 24 Xe3P for top config. Yeah, it should be quite strong if it launches.

 

[poke01]

Not really but it's the price you are getting a better stuff with Mac for the price unless you strictly require windows not to mention win11 crapware.

With PTL, this exodus might turn around. macOS got pretty worse with macOS Tahoe the recent update, imo worse than Windows 11.

I think this was a wake up call for Intel, this is first time in a very long time that Intel had a very good mobile product that was a good all rounder.

 

[Magio]

The Strix Halo killer is Medusa Halo.
Or especially Medusa Premium as a value proposition as it moves Strix Halo perf down to cheaper, lower power machines on normal laptop sockets.
No need to thank me, I do this for free.

I don't think anything needs to kill the stillborn STX-Halo.

 

[Hulk]

Not sure exactly what to make of this slide.

On one hand Raptor Lake's power envelope extends far beyond Darkmont. But on the other hand Raptor's asymptote doesn't look much higher than where Darkmont's performance ends.

I don't remember? How does Skymont compare to Raptor Lake in terms of efficiency? While many people believe the "E" in E cores refers to energy efficiency, Intel told us with the advent of Gracemont that it stood for area efficiency. IPC and energy efficiency can be had with a large amount of silicon as long as frequency is held at resonable levels. I think the reason for being for this slide is to show that Intel has created an area efficient core that is more energy efficient than a larger core... perhaps?

I am also wondering if this chart might indicate that Darkmont may have equaled or exceed Raptor's IPC?

 

[eek2121]

Why are you so fixated on clock rates, especially for a mobile CPU? If Apple manages "only" 5.1 GHz for M6 on N2, will that be a failure of TSMC's technology?

You can throw stones at it if its performance underwhelms, but fixating on irrelevant details like clock rate is stupid.

Agreed. Intel’s focus on these chips is per/watt. If they can drop the clocks/improver efficiency while still being slightly fast vs. previous gen, they will.

They have a lot of ground to make up vs. the competition.

 

[DavidC1]

I mean NVL-AX can kill STX halo easily it's got a uArch update and more mem bw than STX-H

I have the same opinion about Novalake-AX. The big iGPUs have the same flaw. They are too expensive losing big advantage of the iGPU.

@Hulk Intel said Skymont already beats Raptorlake. That curve for Darkmont does look steeper, meaning better perf/watt than Skymont.

You really think very large companies switched to Macs because their webcams were better?! They could have gotten PC laptops with better cameras if that was really the issue, allowing them to preserve their existing infrastructure setup. What made them move is clearly more than that.

I don't want to derail the current discussion focused on PTL details, but if we see any further rumors on this topic, it may be worth coming back.

Yea, its because Windows 11 got way worse in the spyware department, even becoming upfront about it with CoPilot.

I hate how we still do mostly the same thing with computers as we did 40 years ago and it's 100x faster. Modern software is immeasurably bloated.

 

[511]

With PTL, this exodus might turn around. macOS got pretty worse with macOS Tahoe the recent update, imo worse than Windows 11.

I think this was a wake up call for Intel, this is first time in a very long time that Intel had a very good mobile product that was a good all rounder.

I mean yeah PTL is decent for mobile but I don't trust OEM. Do you know the PCD on N6 is same for all SKU Intel disabled the extra lanes to stop OEM from doing stupid things.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

probably the only thing keeping intel afloat is their marketing department... look at all this nonsense

What is nonsense in that slide?

 

[vanplayer]

I am also wondering if this chart might indicate that Darkmont may have equaled or exceed Raptor's IPC?

You don't need to care about these slides. I mean, wait for real benchmark. These curve slides include Cougar Cove one are hilarious.

 

[511]

You don't need to care about these slides. I mean, wait for real benchmark. These curve slides include Cougar Cove one are hilarious.

I find the GPU one even more hillarious

 

[dullard]

When you think about it, Intel needs cutting edge technology to only achieve 5.1GHz, that is incredibly depressive lol

Intel 18A is their low power node (think thin-and-light mobile, embedded, etc). A low power node is not optimized to reach high frequencies.

Intel 18A-P is their performance node. Expect higher power and higher frequencies. Changes that I've seen announced in 18A-P are:

• Non-gimped RibbonFET and PowerVIAs (8% better performance / Watt)
• Corner tightening
• Larger range of ribbon sizes
• Wider range of Vdd (voltages available)

The latter two should give a much wider power range and thus higher frequencies.

 

[jpiniero]

Isn't Nova Lake's CPU tile being fabbed at TSMC?