Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

Page 278 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
679
559
106
PPT1.jpg
PPT2.jpg
PPT3.jpg



As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E3CPU + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXDesktop OnlyMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2025 ?Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E8P + 32E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ??8 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15



Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Clockspeed.png
 

Attachments

  • PantherLake.png
    PantherLake.png
    283.5 KB · Views: 23,969
  • LNL.png
    LNL.png
    881.8 KB · Views: 25,441
Last edited:

Ghostsonplanets

Senior member
Mar 1, 2024
406
676
96
Intel was claiming 40% scenario power reduction over MTL, alongside others power gating and limited power usage improvements. So parity with best in class Arm designs is certainly achievable.
 

SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
1,066
550
96
I think this has been said repeatedly before, but it bears repeating: no single product matters anymore, only execution/iteration speed. LNL can be as mediocre as they come, the important part is how fast they're able to introduce the next meaningful upgrade.
Actually, only part of that is true. If LNC underperforms, Intel may never recover as lots rides on LNC. In it's current state, Intel is not strong enough to handle another blow of such magnitude.

If Intel fails with LNL then I got no hope for them for the low power SoCs from them. They need to match or exceed M3 in ST(GB6) because optics.
I don't think LNL is even close to matching M3 in ST. It doesn't have to. It just needs to be just good enough.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: spursindonesia

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,132
3,533
126
That sounds like copium.
Lunar Lake should have a drastically improved NPU and GPU compared to Meteor Lake. It also will be down to ~8 W of power for fanless applications. Put that all together and it doesn't leave much power left for the CPU. Lunar lake's CPU is only going to be good enough for the NPU and GPU to do their work.

Lunar Lake is more for applications like ultralight laptops, tablets, handheld gaming, industrial controls, and commercial kiosks. It won't be a CPU workstation powerhouse.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tlh97

SpudLobby

Senior member
May 18, 2022
728
440
106
That sounds like copium.

In my opinion, if Lunar Lake can't atleast match the ST of X Elite, it's a failure.
Eh, it’s not copium because the M2/M3 is Apple and only competes to a very limited extent. A lot of people I know who switched (yes, Doug, it’s a small segment but it is real and that’s part of why LNL exists for Intel) wouldn’t have if Windows laptops which offer more variety and lower pricepoints iso-RAM/SSD had something tolerable.

Is LNL going to be mediocre if not laughable given it’s on N3B with 140mm^2 and it’s been 4 years since the M1, and Intel is the legacy chipmaker with resources? Absolutely IMO.

But given what I said about Apple, AMD isn’t even targeting the fanless or 17-30W *ultra efficient/long battery life* style chip market, and then the fact that not all of the major X86 Windows ecosystem is yet ported which hurts Qualcomm a bit*, and that Intel will have plenty of laptop design wins — Intel can sadly get away with something just ok relative to the year and the time/resources or the competition.


Doesn’t mean it’ll sell as well as it could without Qualcomm’s X Plus/Elite in the counterfactual, or without Strix. So they’re on backfoot. But like realistically it will ship a bit.

*For example and to my point:

LNL per the leaked documents will only match the M1 GPU perf @ 12W, not beat it, and it can beat the M2 albeit at higher power. So that’s just good enough, but not impressive in light of the time and area/node.

Yet even tho Qualcomm’s iGPU will be more efficient and same the CPU, Lunar Lake won’t have the games compatibility issue or emulation hit. So for someone wanting to play A) light games on a 15-20W ultrabook and otherwise use it for school/business, hard to recommend Snapdragon and Strix is not going to quite have the same target.
 
Jul 27, 2020
16,887
10,813
106
handheld gaming
It's gonna need some serious game engine patches to make sure that two of the least intensive threads fall on the E-cores. Otherwise, any time the main game engine thread gets scheduled on the E-core, there will be performance loss and/or hitching. Games could be a stuttering mess, especially those that depend heavily on multithreading. Four P-cores is less than the minimum six cores that most game engines have come to expect from gaming machines. There's a reason that AMD didn't introduce anything lower than the core count of Ryzen Z1. Lower core count would be detrimental to typical games.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,132
3,533
126
It's gonna need some serious game engine patches to make sure that two of the least intensive threads fall on the E-cores. Otherwise, any time the main game engine thread gets scheduled on the E-core, there will be performance loss and/or hitching. Games could be a stuttering mess, especially those that depend heavily on multithreading. Four P-cores is less than the minimum six cores that most game engines have come to expect from gaming machines. There's a reason that AMD didn't introduce anything lower than the core count of Ryzen Z1. Lower core count would be detrimental to typical games.
Yes, heavily multithreaded games might not do well.

The ability for programmers to specify only P-cores for specific threads has been around since Alder Lake in 2021. If the game developers haven't added the one line of code to specify which threads shouldn't go on E-cores by the time Lunar Lake is out, that is a really sad failure on the game developers part.
 

Ghostsonplanets

Senior member
Mar 1, 2024
406
676
96
Lunar Lake should have a drastically improved NPU and GPU compared to Meteor Lake. It also will be down to ~8 W of power for fanless applications. Put that all together and it doesn't leave much power left for the CPU. Lunar lake's CPU is only going to be good enough for the NPU and GPU to do their work.

Lunar Lake is more for applications like ultralight laptops, tablets, handheld gaming, industrial controls, and commercial kiosks. It won't be a CPU workstation powerhouse.
I'd argue 8W is plenty of power for GPU + NPU + CPU. Specially if you want your design to be on fanless models. Specially as we have Smartphones, Macbooks Air, SteamDeck, Switch, etc all being designs that sip power while providing high performance for their applications.

The problem lies at Intel inability at design P Cores that are efficient from the low to the high end power curve. That's something AMD is much better and they need it to be fixed with Lion Cove for LNL to shine.
Intel will have plenty of laptop design wins
There wad a rumor last year that LNL has 3x as many design wins as MTL had. Intel claimed MTL had 200+ design wins at launch, so we're looking at LNL having 600+ design wins.

If it's true, it's a pretty rosy picture for OEMs confidence on LNL.
 

Ghostsonplanets

Senior member
Mar 1, 2024
406
676
96
From current Keynote, dude on Twitter posted it, although it's not openly available and probably under NDA.
View attachment 96571View attachment 96572View attachment 96573
>100 peak TOPs??? So the BMG iGPU adds the XMX cores that MTL had removed? + the NPU is much more performant.

Also, first time I'm hearing Panther Lake is 18A, I3 and External. I assume External is the Celestial iGPU tile. 18A for Cougar Cove and Intel 3 for ??? (SoC?)
 

Tigerick

Senior member
Apr 1, 2022
679
559
106
>100 peak TOPs??? So the BMG iGPU adds the XMX cores that MTL had removed? + the NPU is much more performant.

Also, first time I'm hearing Panther Lake is 18A, I3 and External. I assume External is the Celestial iGPU tile. 18A for Cougar Cove and Intel 3 for ??? (SoC?)
Panther Lake is new design with 2 tiles only. 18A is for CPU+SoC, tGPU is available for 2 version: Intel 3 for 4 XE and N3E for 12 XE
 

SiliconFly

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2023
1,066
550
96
From current Keynote, dude on Twitter posted it, although it's not openly available and probably under N
Intel always has the best slides in the market!

Panther Lake is new design with 2 tiles only. 18A is for CPU+SoC, tGPU is available for 2 version: Intel 3 for 4 XE and N3E for 12 XE
In the first slide, for the first time, Arrow Lake is being associated with Intel 3! Any ideas?
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,132
3,533
126

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,270
2,090
136
I'm not hyped on NPU's, should I be? If I'm feeling lazy and I need a numerical solution to a math problem with no closed for solution or some other work that is boring for me to do manually I just hit up ChatGPT. It doesn't happen that often actually.

Am I stuck in the past and missing AI opportunities in my daily life/work?
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,132
3,533
126
I'm not hyped on NPU's, should I be? If I'm feeling lazy and I need a numerical solution to a math problem with no closed for solution or some other work that is boring for me to do manually I just hit up ChatGPT. It doesn't happen that often actually.

Am I stuck in the past and missing AI opportunities in my daily life/work?
What have you tried?

I like the potential for AI. Software like Teams can already summarize a meeting that you didn't attend and tell you what are your action items. Or have Outlook tell you what your boss things of topic X. Or have Copilot read a patent and explain how it might impact the design of what you are working on. Or have Excel tell you how data in column A impacts column B. All of these things already work in AI. And I can certainly understand why you don't want things like that done online with ChatGPT but would instead want it done locally on an NPU--especially when it deals with business secrets.

I think mostly we need training on what it can do now and how to use it effectively.