Intel "Haswell" Speculation thread

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Dufus

Senior member
Sep 20, 2010
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The OP was talking about AVX, well AVX2 actually, and that is what happens with AVX and HTT. Perhaps you really mean it's not only AVX that has this problem. ;) BTW, if you did not already know, the bottom half of the AVX registers are the SSE registers.
 
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jones377

Senior member
May 2, 2004
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The OP was talking about AVX, well AVX2 actually, and that is what happens with AVX and HTT. Perhaps you really mean it's not only AVX that has this problem. ;) BTW, if you did not already know, the bottom half of the AVX registers are the SSE registers.

That's not the point. It's specific to Linpack because it reaches very close to 100% utilization in the core with only 1 thread. Running 2 threads down the same core means all the resources are cut in half and performance suffer. This is not an issue in real code that contain bubbles due to cache misses and ILP restraints. There SMT is a win, upwards of 25-30% sometimes. Check Cinebench for example.
 

sefsefsefsef

Senior member
Jun 21, 2007
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That's not the point. It's specific to Linpack because it reaches very close to 100% utilization in the core with only 1 thread. Running 2 threads down the same core means all the resources are cut in half and performance suffer. This is not an issue in real code that contain bubbles due to cache misses and ILP restraints. There SMT is a win, upwards of 25-30% sometimes. Check Cinebench for example.

Is that 100% utilization according to the OS's thread scheduler, or according to the core's functional unit scheduler? If there are any functional units sitting idle, then you can always cram a little more work onto the core with SMT.
 

jones377

Senior member
May 2, 2004
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Is that 100% utilization according to the OS's thread scheduler, or according to the core's functional unit scheduler? If there are any functional units sitting idle, then you can always cram a little more work onto the core with SMT.

The latter of course. Just compare the resulted GFLOPS to theoretical GFLOPS on Linpack on any x86 CPU since the original K7 or so. They are at 90%+ which is VERY high compared to real production code.
 

Dufus

Senior member
Sep 20, 2010
675
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That's not the point. It's specific to Linpack because it reaches very close to 100% utilization in the core with only 1 thread. Running 2 threads down the same core means all the resources are cut in half and performance suffer. This is not an issue in real code that contain bubbles due to cache misses and ILP restraints. There SMT is a win, upwards of 25-30% sometimes. Check Cinebench for example.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Cinebench doesn't run AVX code, however you have a valid point, if running 'bubbly' code it might not make a lot of difference. Seems I was being a bit extreme.
 

ScottAD

Senior member
Jan 10, 2007
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I might be upgrading to Haswell, I have a Sandy OC'd to 4.5Ghz. Think it would be a viable upgrade in the future?
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
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Correct me if I'm wrong but Cinebench doesn't run AVX code, however you have a valid point, if running 'bubbly' code it might not make a lot of difference. Seems I was being a bit extreme.
It'll run any code that the Intel C++ Composer XE 11.1 will auto-vectorize.

http://software.intel.com/en-us/blo...our-compilers-libraries-and-cluster-toolkits/
Tilo Kühn at Maxon Computer said, “We’ve been enthusiastically using the new version of Intel® C++ Compiler Professional Edition that includes support for Intel® Advanced Vector Extensions (Intel AVX.) Being able to performance tune our software well in advance of processor availability gives us a major development head start to ensure that our Cinebench product will be ready when the first Intel AVX-enabled processor is delivered.”
Cinebench can only execute SSE2 for AMD64 processors(AuthenticAMD) while AVX for Intel 64 processors(GenuineIntel).

Cinema4D R12/R13/R14 products I believe have either dropped Intel C++ Composer or worked around the biased code. As of yet, Maxon has yet to release Cinebench R12 or R13 or R14, I would like to think there is no hidden agenda with this, but the situation says there is an agenda.
 
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Dufus

Senior member
Sep 20, 2010
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Thanks NostaSeronx,

I did give Cinebench 11.5 just a quick try with windows set for AVX enabled / disabled and saw little difference in bench marks. Maybe I did something wrong, I didn't spend much time with it.

I have only run across 3 programs that I know for sure run AVX code Linpack being one and Prime95 latest versions being another. In all 3 cases using HTT showed no improvement or worse, degradation. If you know of other multi-threaded AVX enabled software that does not show this I would be interested in trying it.

It will also be interesting to see the results of Knights Corner. :)
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
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well, since this is a speculation thread, i speculate the Haswell will have some decent thermal paste inside this time around.

I hope Haswell has the soldered IHS.

However, TIM would make for some interesting delidding comparisons. (eg, comparing overclocks of Haswell to overclocks of 14nm Broadwell.)
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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My guess is that 10W is the version that performs like Ivy Bridge in CPU and GPU while 15W will be the one that will actually advance its performance.

OR

It's merely the mode in Configurable TDP. Even scenario 1 seems optimistic.

Moving down from 17W down to 10W while improving CPU and Graphics performance at the same process technology is a revolutionary improvement, something that's comparable going from Pentium D to Core 2. Mind you, you are no longer just reducing the CPU core power, but the L3 caches, GPU, memory controller, DMI/PCI Express controller, and in this case, even the PCH.

I don't believe that's the case. Even at 15W, that includes the PCH so with the performance gains it would be impressive alone.
 
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Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
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The GameCube and Wii emulator Dolphin supports AVX and is multithreaded.
 

Dufus

Senior member
Sep 20, 2010
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Correct me if I'm wrong that uses only 2 threads, one for cpu emulation and one for gpu emulation and maybe a third thread for audio emulation. Thanks for the info, I'll try to have a look at it.
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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New info on Haswell:

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/07/haswell-gt3-uses-shaders-to-save-power/

Apparently the 40 shaders in GT3 will not be used to provide better GFX performance. Instead it will be used to save power!?

Also:

http://www.zdnet.com/intel-pins-hopes-on-haswell-to-boost-pc-sales-7000003885/

"But the real end-user benefit in Haswell is power efficiency, with Intel saying that the chips can slash power consumption by as much as 41 percent in notebooks and ultrabooks. In real terms, power consumption has been cut from 17 watts to 10 watts, offering a massive improvement in performance per watt."
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
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But the real end-user benefit in Haswell is power efficiency, with Intel saying that the chips can slash power consumption by as much as 41 percent in notebooks and ultrabooks. In real terms, power consumption has been cut from 17 watts to 10 watts, offering a massive improvement in performance per watt.

The problem now is that processors no longer sell devices, it's the devices that sell the processors, and as such buyers aren't concerned any more about GHz, cores, and L2 cache sizes. However, a processor that features lower-power consumption is something that translates into a metric that everyone can understand -- longer battery life.

That's not entirely true. The 10W TDP of some new Haswell chips should certainly allow for a more fitting CPU for an Ultrabook platform, but that has little to do with battery life. Most Ultrabooks with 17W TDP chips actually have worse battery life than their 35W brethren. That mainly has to do with the limited space for a larger battery. The 35W chips idle at very low voltages anyway so the savings in power are only during full load situations and for most computing that's negligible. A majority of the battery is burned up by the display and not the processor, thus any increase in efficiency for the chip is still only going to result in a very small gain in battery life and only under certain circumstances.

Not that I'm complaining, just clearing things up a bit. The article is obviously written by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about or purposely overstating the improvements and their potential effects. I think Ultrabooks are a great idea, but only if they offer something tangible over the current flock of notebooks. At the moment they really aren't any lighter, any more portable, they're more expensive, don't offer better performance nor do they offer any more time away from a socket. Being thin alone isn't going to sell Ultrabooks. Well, some, but not enough. Thankfully, Haswell seems to be at least addressing the issue of the persistent throttling we see in current Ivy and Sandy chips so it's certainly a start :) Hopefully Intel can follow through with either decreasing the prices across the board or addressing some of the other issues that plague the platform. Cutting the TDP down from 17W to 10W isn't going to help the battery any, though.

- editing to not sound like a Debbie Downer.

Intel has pushed for standardizing the design of the Li-Polymer batteries which can be a significant factor in the overall cost of the laptop. Unlike Li-ion batteries they do tend to degrade a little quicker but the turnover period of notebooks means you're usually not going to see it (500 charges or 3 years. For me though, that's about 2 years). Standardizing the batteries should drive costs down.

Intel has also pushed for standardizing the mSATA cards in the laptops as well which, too, should decrease costs.
 
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Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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So Haswell will also mostly be about power consumption and Ultrabooks.

How long do you think we'll see this trend continue? Will Broadwell, Skylake and Skymont also be mostly about power consumption? Or will the focus shift back towards performance anytime soon? If not, what will make desktop PC owners want to upgrade? :confused:
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
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So Haswell will also mostly be about power consumption and Ultrabooks.

How long do you think we'll see this trend continue? Will Broadwell, Skylake and Skymont also be mostly about power consumption? Or will the focus shift back towards performance anytime soon? If not, what will make desktop PC owners want to upgrade? :confused:

Desktop owners haven't really had a need to upgrade now since the Q6600 other than gaming. That trend will continue and even accelerate if the new consoles present a need to. If we're to judge by the rumored specs of the consoles, that's unlikely to happen as the PS4 and the new Xbox are looking to have a 6670-type GPU with a lower price tag, roughly around $300, so computing power equivalent to enthusiast desktops is highly unlikely. The good news is maybe we'll get some x86 action thus allowing for better performing console ports and a wider selection of titles.

As far as the perf-per-watt focus shifting, I just don't see it happening. Both Intel and AMD seem to be more focused on GPU and decreasing power consumption along with providing goodies (Thunderbolt//Lightningbolt [what a stupid name]). Due to the trend of decreasing PC sales with increasing tablet sales, they'll both be looking to decrease power consumption as much as possible while still retaining performance in order to make headway into the mobile market.

The focus will only shift if the market shifts. If for some reason there's a need for more compute power then we'll see a move toward more throughput but I highly doubt it's going to be at the cost of efficiency. What's more likely to happen is that enthusiasts will opt for the 2011-style workstation platforms rather than the mainstream 1155's
 

meloz

Senior member
Jul 8, 2008
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Or will the focus shift back towards performance anytime soon?

The large socket covers the performance segment. Intel is not abandoning that market anytime soon. Servers and workstations still use LGA 2011, and will use its successors.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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So Haswell will also mostly be about power consumption and Ultrabooks.

How long do you think we'll see this trend continue? Will Broadwell, Skylake and Skymont also be mostly about power consumption? Or will the focus shift back towards performance anytime soon? If not, what will make desktop PC owners want to upgrade? :confused:

Haswell is faster than IB. So...?

And people still upgrade. There are huge differences going from for example Lynnfield to IB.
 

pelov

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2011
3,510
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Haswell is faster than IB. So...?

And people still upgrade. There are huge differences going from for example Lynnfield to IB.

In power consumption, sure, but the rest? Most people don't need the extra processing power and that includes the enthusiast.

His point was that these 10% bumps aren't enough to justify an upgrade and he's right, it isn't. Unless you're worried about power consumption under load or need the extra processing power but both of those needs are quite rare.A lot of people upgrade because they like to upgrade not because they need to upgrade and that will never change. Even if the performance increase is only in the low single digits they'll still find a reason to spend money
 

BenchPress

Senior member
Nov 8, 2011
392
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So Haswell will also mostly be about power consumption and Ultrabooks.

How long do you think we'll see this trend continue? Will Broadwell, Skylake and Skymont also be mostly about power consumption? Or will the focus shift back towards performance anytime soon? If not, what will make desktop PC owners want to upgrade? :confused:
Haswell doubles the vector throughput per core and significantly improves multi-core efficiency. So there's no need to "shift back" towards performance. Haswell is a huge leap in performance/Watt, and this results in lower power consumption for ultrabooks and higher performance for desktops.