Intel "Haswell" Speculation thread

Discussion in 'CPUs and Overclocking' started by Arachnotronic, Jan 7, 2012.

  1. inf64

    inf64 Platinum Member

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    Intel states in their press material that Haswell should be ~10% faster than IB.
    In order to get the throughput it offers in AVX2 and FMA3,applications need to be written with those in mind.
     
  2. Olikan

    Olikan Golden Member

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  3. AtenRa

    AtenRa Lifer

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  4. grimpr

    grimpr Golden Member

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    "This memory will open up new vistas for the user to marvel at how awful the Intel drivers are, how broken their release schedule is, and do it at great speeds.S|A"

    lol :thumbsup: Well i can attest to drivers, they are nowhere near the compatibility of AMDs in games, specially 2D ones...
     
  5. pelov

    pelov Diamond Member

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    I'm well aware, just pointing it out to our resident AVX2 superhero. Regular users and even enthusiasts won't see anything come to fruition from the newer ISAs until at least a couple of years down the line, much like every ISA that's been tacked on. We'll get a few loudmouths who will boast synthetic benchmarks figures but nothing to show for it outside of that :p

    Not that I'm critisizing AVX2's potential benefits, I'm just stating the realistic scenario. AVX2 is nice but it won't be great for at least 2-3 years (and that's provided people still give a crap about x86 at that point)


    It probably will, but the bigger issue here is how AMD's Kaveri will fair against Haswell on the mobile end. If it's like the current HD4000 vs. 7660G then AMD will be in trouble. Intel's on-die graphics, though far from stellar in desktop are actually quite decent in mobile. AMD's APUs are a reversal of roles in that their desktop APUs perform far better than do the mobile SKUs do to a variety of factors-- clock speeds, inefficiency at the fab level, reliance on DDR3's bus for cache, etc.

    If Haswell trumps Kaveri's on-die graphics in the mobile segment then AMD will have nothing going for it on either side of the CPU... outside of drivers :p Intel has done better but they're still far from respectable for gaming.
     
    #505 pelov, Sep 10, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  6. grimpr

    grimpr Golden Member

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    You know what, i saw a video on Intels web site with an interview of some Israeli cpu architects, Haifa team, and they said that Intels new pipeline is modular and will be gradually introduced in 2-3 generations of cpus, that means that they could implement FMA3 and AVX2 even in SB/IB gen imho.
     
  7. AtenRa

    AtenRa Lifer

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    At the same TDP the AMD Trinity is much faster than HD4000 in Laptops. Kaveri will be made at 28nm process and I'm expecting a nice performance/wattage increase over Trinity, especially in GPU compute and DX-11 gaming due to GCN architecture.

    With HW, Intel will start to sacrifice CPU performance by raising the iGPU die size and power usage. Perhaps Socket 2011 will become the dominant enthusiast platform in the near future much like 1366 used to be.
     
  8. inf64

    inf64 Platinum Member

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    Come again? SB and IB are finished designs,there is zero chance of them having either FMA or AVX2.
     
  9. pelov

    pelov Diamond Member

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    Too late for that :p


    My point was that HD4000 is far closer to 7660G in mobile than it is on the desktop. The 17W TDP chips are pretty much neck-and-neck with each other as far as graphics performance goes. Intel's approach of maintaining the same exact on-die graphics (minus clock speed) is a better approach in mobile. The 7660G in AMD's A10s performs roughly on par or just under a 540m but HD4000 on a 35W Intel chip isn't too far behind. If Intel manage to bring the same performance bump they did from SB>IB to HW then AMD is in big trouble. On the desktop AMD would still fair better but that's not where the sales are.
     
  10. Khato

    Khato Golden Member

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    I'd tend to say that at the same TDP, Trinity is either on par with or much faster than IVB depending upon the game. It's an important distinction, because the real unknown with HSW is whether or not the architectural bottlenecks in the design will be taken care of. If they are, then AMD is in trouble plain and simple. If they aren't, well, then it'll more or less be a continuation of the status quo where Intel may look good in 3Dmark Vantage and some games while failing miserably at others.
     
  11. BenchPress

    BenchPress Senior member

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    AVX2 will be supported by lots of multimedia applications on the day of Haswell's launch, or not long after. Just look at how fast SSE4 was supported, and that didn't offer anywhere near double the performance like AVX2 does! Also any application that uses OpenCL can instantly benefit from Intel's next version with AVX2 support, which will no doubt coincide with Haswell's launch. Likewise TSX can be used by the operating system so it doesn't require a major rewrite of each application to start benefiting from it.

    Either way you can't say Haswell only focusses on power consumption when it provides major performance enhancements like AVX2 and TSX. Sure the days when legacy applications became significantly faster by upgrading the CPU are over, but that's not a problem in today's connected world where software can easily be updated.
     
  12. BenchPress

    BenchPress Senior member

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    You're wrong. AVX2 is nothing like those previous ISA extensions. It's the very first x86 SIMD extension which is truly suitable for SPMD processing. This is revolutionary because it allows for straightforward auto-vectorization. Previous extensions required developers to do the vectorization themselves, and often even required assembly programming. With AVX2 you can let the compiler take care of that, and just write ordinary scalar code. That's a huge difference which will lead to a much faster adoption.

    By the way, it's guaranteed to be adopted faster than any GPGPU technology, which is also based on SPMD auto-vectorization but comes with lots of pitfalls.

    So I don't know what more you could expect. Haswell is a lot more about performance than you seem to realize.
     
  13. Ajay

    Ajay Platinum Member

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    ^^ yes, this is huge! The only slow down then becomes regression testing in SQA.
     
  14. pelov

    pelov Diamond Member

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    This was the same with AVX and where has that brought us?

    Benchpress, unless you're personally willing to recompile the software then it's going the way of every other ISA: 2-3 year adoption rate before we realize anything meaningful from it.

    You're ignoring two key points here

    1 - Nobody really cares much about the potential performance benefits outside of select workstation apps and server workloads, and as is the norm with those two segments, the software is optimized and recompiled on a regular basis anyway

    2 - Software developers are lazy and won't recompile unless they can see direct profits from it. They certainly won't recompile for a very small percentage of the market

    That was a different era and even that was slow. If you want to relate it to more modern terms then take a look at AVX and its adoption rate. You'll see that it really hasn't been that stellar despite potential throughput increase.

    Software developers care about money. Today most money made on software is made on ARM and not x86 (or at least that's the case for most users). The notion that developers will actually recompile because Intel has released this really sweet new ISA is crazy. If you truly do believe that then I've got a few investments you might want to take a look at

    And there's an easy way to think about this -
    When was the last time you paid for software or an application and on what platform was it? PC, phone, or tablet? On what platform do most users buy their applications?

    The server and workstation crowd will adore AVX2, I'm sure of it. The rest of us, though, won't care nor notice.
     
    #514 pelov, Sep 10, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  15. Ajay

    Ajay Platinum Member

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    Game development should see a rapid adoption, if Intel has done it's marketing properly. If it were Nvidia marketing AVX2, we'd never hear the end of it's benefits.
     
  16. pelov

    pelov Diamond Member

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    I was just thinking of that after I posted my response.

    There are two things that can throw a wrench in there, one of them being gaming and the other win8 and MS. Considering wintel relations aren't all that great recently it's unlikely that MS would see any sort of x86 resurgence. A console platform with AVX2 would be pretty darn good, but unless MS/Sony specified certain ISAs for their next consoles, I don't think we'll be seeing it. It seems AMD is making the Xbox CPU but depending on what the design is it may or may not have AVX2. If it does then we can actually see some game developers utilizing it but if it doesn't then it might as well be MIPs because they'll treat the desktop as a red-headed stepchild :p
     
  17. BenchPress

    BenchPress Senior member

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    You're still not getting it. AVX sorely lacks gather support, integer support, and vector-vector shifts. Its unsuited for SPMD. And on top of that Sandy Bridge is bandwidth limited. Haswell fixes that all at once, and throws in FMA, hardware transactional memory and lock elision as well!
    You are sorely mistaken. Every respectable multimedia application supports every SIMD extension up to SSE 4.1, with hand-written assembly routines. That tells me something about how much they care about improving performance and the effort they're willing to take. And yes, they're skipping AVX, because that's floating-point only. But it's a given that they'll offer AVX2 support as soon as it becomes available.

    And that's only the tip of the iceberg. Lots of other application developers are craving higher performance. And while they may not be willing to write assembly for it, AVX2 is a game-changer by enabling SPMD auto-vectorization. For a list of applications, just look for anything that has tried (and most likely failed) to benefit from GPGPU.
    AVX2 offers direct profits. And developers are not too lazy to simply change a compiler flag. And while initially the market for AVX2 may be small, nobody wants to be the last. There's a very strong halo effect of being the first to support it. Benchmarks between competing software can make or break sales numbers. And they don't want to risk disappointing the early adopters who invest in the latest hardware and software.
    I bought a 79 cent game for my iPhone, and a 49 dollar game for my PC. So guess where the big money is...
     
  18. pelov

    pelov Diamond Member

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    I'm going to ignore the rest as it's just redundant and just state that most software bought is on ARM thus anything Intel/AMD derived doesn't matter. At all. AMD and Intel can improve performance by a million percent and people would still not care, thus software developers wouldn't care either. You did raise one good point

    That depends highly on what ISAs the newer consoles are. We already know that game devs are lazy and don't bother with recompiles or pay much attention to the PC arena, but if the new console chips feature AVX2 you may have a point. If they don't...
     
  19. IntelUser2000

    IntelUser2000 Elite Member

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    According to here though, HD 4000 in the 17W Ivy Bridge chip is almost on par with the discrete 7550M graphics in the Trinity A6-4455M(17W) laptop while significantly outperforming the HD 7500G integrated.
     
  20. pelov

    pelov Diamond Member

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    It's not. The HD4000 at 17W is roughly on par with the 17W Trinity chip. At 35W the HD4000 is still a bit behind the 6620G Llano. The TDP cut-off points hurt AMD and Intel both but they're hitting AMD much harder. Then there's the issue of persistent GPU thottling that happens with both chips that makes any sort of respectable gaming at the ULV level an impossibility :p
     
  21. happysmiles

    happysmiles Senior member

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  22. inf64

    inf64 Platinum Member

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    The link is slow or not opening at all :(. But thanks anyway,I'll check it out alter :).
     
  23. Edrick

    Edrick Golden Member

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    For you to compare AXV with AVX2 means you clearly do not understand the difference between the 2 and what the actual benefits are to the development community.
     
  24. pelov

    pelov Diamond Member

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    I do but my question is what development community?
     
  25. TuxDave

    TuxDave Lifer

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