I assume the recent interview with mr. Norrod from AMD is the 1% you talk about? Because that interview was EXCELLENT.
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Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread
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Unfortunately we can't see the anticipated worst case production week window, I guess it's 4-8 weeks down on the best case week. A launch in September or October makes sense I would say. Workstation models may come a little later than the consumer variant. It also confirms 6+0 and 8+8 from the old sharkbay leak.
Definitely looks like they are doing a respin to help frequencies and/or yield. 270 W is really pushing it in a workstation processor.
uzzi38
Platinum Member
Uh, you know Threadripper is 280W, right? OEMs are already building systems around these kinds of TDPs.
Asterox
Golden Member
It is expected, he is not classic transparent marketing blah expert.
We all now, what we can expect from "top marketing manager acrobatics".
Yeah, but Threadripper Pro has the benefit of having the chiplets being spaced out a bit. Plus they are surely extremely well binned chiplets.
Agreed, but it was less of formal "launch" or "event" interview format, and more podcast one. Looking forward to further interviews like that.
Panino Manino
Golden Member
People are missing the forrest for the trees.
IntelUser2000
Elite Member
Eh, it's just a successor to the 28 core Purley "workstation". A proper HEDT would be a successor to the Skylake-X 18 core parts.
Great. Tigerlake hype machine Part 2. Hype until June, announce in July, "launch" in August overview of it in so-called tech conferences by September, and on the shelves by October/November.
Tiger Lake is a solid chip thus far. Why the hate? 8-core H variants are shipping next month. 15W variants are rumored to be getting a respin.
I suspect Tiger Lake will exist alongside Alder Lake for quite a while. IMO it is the first decent chip Intel has pushed out in years.
EDIT: The 5800H edges out The AMD Ryzen 9 5900HX in Geekbench, for example.
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There was a rumour about a September launch which probably is a best case window, I doubt they will launch it earlier than that, more likely October. Tigerlake-U is a mobile chip, the initial mobile ramp up is always slower than for desktop. Look to AMD and Cezanne 3 months after launch, there is almost nothing. For this reason we will see ADL-S desktop first followed by mobile, which you didn't believe last year by the way!
Speaking about Tigerlake-U....volume looks great. Combined with Icelake 10nm ULV volume seems a lot higher than 14nm ULV by now, many of these 14nm devices are old. In reference to geizhals.de available devices/configurations:
Tigerlake-UP3 423
Cometlake-U 395
Icelake-U 327
Renoir U+H 267
Cezanne 8
Lucienne 14
The ramp will be slower than Rocket Lake. Sapphire Rapids and Alder Lake both are launching around the same time. Intel appears to be going all in on 10nm and Golden Cove.
EDIT: I see a lot of people hating on ADL-S, kind of odd to me, as an 8+8 ADL-S will be significantly faster than a Ryzen 5950X.
TESKATLIPOKA
Platinum Member
I seriously wonder how you got to this conclusion about 8+8 Alder Lake being faster than a 16 core Ryzen 5950X.
If we talk only about 8 threads or less, then It should be faster, but after that the difference will become increasingly smaller until Zen3 turns out faster. Let's be honest, those small cores will have a lot less IPC and clockspeed than the big ones. At best It could be faster than Ryzen 5900X in multi thread but slower than Ryzen 5950X.
edit:
I will do a napkin math where in the first case Alder has 10% better performance than Rocket Lake in Cinebench and the small core provides 50% of big cores performance. In the second case It's 20% and the small core provides 60%.
Cinebenech R23 Single(TPU):
Ryzen 9 5900X: 1622 (100%)
Ryzen 9 5950X: 1658 (102%)
Core i9-11900K: 1676 (103%)
Alder Lake 8+8: 1844 (114%)
Alder Lake 8+8: 2011 (124%)
Cinebenech R23 Multi(TPU):
Core i9-11900K: 13531 (100%)
Ryzen 9 5900X: 21707 (160%)
Alder Lake 8+8: 22326 (165%)
Ryzen 9 5950X: 25916 (192%)
Alder Lake 8+8: 25980 (192%)
As shown Alder Lake needs to be the second case If It wants to be a tiny bit faster than Ryzen 9 5950X in multi thread and this was just a napkin math, yet I can already conclude that It won't be significantly faster than Zen3 in multi, that's just impossible for 8+8 configuration from the info we got so far.
On the other hand, in mobile segment Alder Lake could be the fastest CPU you can get simply because AMD won't release anything higher than 8 core as a monolith chip and chiplet design is not very suitable for the mobile segment.
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coercitiv
Diamond Member
Care to explain how you arrived at this conclusion?
The big cores will be around 20% faster. The small cores will be around 10% slower.
Simple math. Alder Lake will beat top Zen 3 chips by around 10%.
EDIT: The leaks I have been able to find appear to indicate that the little cores are Skylake with AVX-512 stripped out along with changes in a few other areas. Early engineering samples had all cores clocking up close to 4.8 ghz.
Intel’s golden cove cores are HUGE. Larger than Zen 3. They are also fast.
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coercitiv
Diamond Member
How exactly are the small core going to be just 10% slower?
The estimate for small cores used on the forums is around Skylake IPC. That's at least 15% lower ST performance at ISO clocks. For MT performance you'd have to account for the lack of SMT, which again lowers performance by 15% or so. That puts the small core in ADL-S at around 30% performance deficit versus a Zen 3 core in throughput oriented workloads.
I can see how ADL-S will be significantly faster than 5950X chips in workloads that use up to 8 threads, maybe even up to 16 threads if Gracemont cores clock past 4Ghz, but going higher than that in thread count will see ADL-S slowly fall behind. Aren't Intel themselves claiming up to 2X MT performance over Rocket Lake?
TESKATLIPOKA
Platinum Member
Big cores could be 20% faster, but small cores won't be only 10% slower than Rocket Lake or Tiger Lake! They have supposedly Skylake IPC which is more than 10% slower and then the clocks will be also noticeably lower + supposedly no HT for them. So your simple math is wrong.
moinmoin
Diamond Member
Where did you hear that? The little cores are Gracemont ones.
IntelUser2000
Elite Member
The Gracemont cores are NOT Skylake. It's just expected to have around Skylake performance. It's a extension of the dual decode cluster design that was introduced with Tremont.
Yea, and likely in mobile as with the MLID leak. Actually I expect even the 2+8 part to beat 4 core Tigerlake-U by a decent amount(20-30%).
I'm expecting it'll beat the 5900X, but 5950X will need the Golden Cove cores to be a lot faster. They are only saying 20% in single thread boost, which is a firm no on matching 5950X nevermind beating it.
Tigerlake is an OK chip, nothing more. Still gets it's ass kicked by Renoir in MT because the core is too big and power hungry to fit more than 4 of them. Xe will be shadowed by the graphics in Remembrandt, maybe even by Van Gogh!
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I'd be careful with looking at per core performance improvements to determine MT performance. What often gets quoted are ST performance or IPC numbers and those may not always be an indication of MT performance. A great example here is Zen3, which got like +19% IPC and >+25% ST performance but only <+10% MT performance from the 3950x to the 5950x.
Aside from that the top Tremont cores get about ~750 on Geekbench for ST: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?utf8=✓&q=n6005 . An expected +30% on top of that is ~1000 which is pretty close to the original Skylake (core 6000 series), but current rocket lake is closer to 1800. So Skylake level performance is likely more like 50% of big core than just 10% slower. That said see my advice above about not looking at ST perf for MT predictions.
Aside from that the top Tremont cores get about ~750 on Geekbench for ST: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?utf8=✓&q=n6005 . An expected +30% on top of that is ~1000 which is pretty close to the original Skylake (core 6000 series), but current rocket lake is closer to 1800. So Skylake level performance is likely more like 50% of big core than just 10% slower. That said see my advice above about not looking at ST perf for MT predictions.
I wonder if this prediction is as accurate as your "Tigerlake graphics performing about 30-40% better than Icelake" last year, it was a bit off.
Depending on power I think Tigerlake being outdone by Rembrandt/Van Gogh is actually quite likely. Looking at
, at 15W it is a coin toss between Tigerlake and Cezanne and at 25/28W Tigerlake is 0-30% faster.
Van Gogh likely will not play in the 25/28W range but at the 15W it would have to do very little to turn that into a win. Rembrandt will have +50% GPU cores (besides the upgrade to RDNA2), which while it probably won't provide +50% perf is likely enough to beat Tigerlake even at the 25/28W power level.
Of course the real question is the graphics included with Alderlake as that is a more timely competitor for these. AFAIU there are no big architectural changes, but a +10% or so due to clock tuning or tweaks could make a noticeable difference in the performance race.
Van Gogh likely will not play in the 25/28W range but at the 15W it would have to do very little to turn that into a win. Rembrandt will have +50% GPU cores (besides the upgrade to RDNA2), which while it probably won't provide +50% perf is likely enough to beat Tigerlake even at the 25/28W power level.
Of course the real question is the graphics included with Alderlake as that is a more timely competitor for these. AFAIU there are no big architectural changes, but a +10% or so due to clock tuning or tweaks could make a noticeable difference in the performance race.
mikk, I highly suggest you lower your expectations of Xe for Alder Lake.
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