Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[piokos]

I'm still wondering a bit at TigerLake-H coming out in Q2 2021. Why is it going to be so late?

Prioritizing the more important product lineup (-U SoCs)?
I mean: if you believe Intel has problems with 10nm supply, you shouldn't be surprised these chips will be late.

Moreover, Intel lost MacBooks which generated how much of the -H revenue? Half?

Next year Tiger Lake gaming laptops could come with DDR5 which will let them shine a bit more.

 

[DrMrLordX]

TGL and ADL is not same architecture, but yeah I have similar feeling that Intel's schedule/naming is weird by now......Seems intel decide to have seperate development for both desktop&mobile, but it's getting more&more puzzled to understand the difference(at least for me). This may be a result of 10nm's yield problem and being so late to the market.

I know they aren't the same uarch . . . but if Intel is to hit the target for launching Alder Lake-P in 2021 (which seems doubtful), then there's going to be overlap between TigerLake-H and Alder Lake-P. So possible conclusions:

Intel knows Alder Lake-P is a 2022 CPU, so launching Tiger Lake-H in Q2 2021 is not a big problem (no real overlap)
Intel won't be launching 25W+ Alder Lake-P in 2021
Intel will launch 25W+ Alder Lake-P in 2021, crushing its own TigerLake-H product and giving it less than a year's worth of lifespan. When you consider that launching Alder Lake-S in Q3 2021 would bring Rocket Lake-S to a swift and ugly death, it raises even more questions.

@piokos

TigerLake-H would have wiped out AMD's entire Renoir lineup in a single blow, especially if they had lower-clocked versions at lower TDPs. Why they wouldn't at least prioritize a paper launch of that product with limited supplies is beyond me.

 

[uzzi38]

Prioritizing the more important product lineup (-U SoCs)?
I mean: if you believe Intel has problems with 10nm supply, you shouldn't be surprised these chips will be late.

Moreover, Intel lost MacBooks which generated how much of the -H revenue? Half?

Next year Tiger Lake gaming laptops could come with DDR5 which will let them shine a bit more.

Pretty sure TGL-H is DDR4 still.

 

[piokos]

Pretty sure TGL-H is DDR4 still.

We won't know what memory will come in TGL-H laptops until they are announced. But Tiger Lake platform will support DDR5 when it is delivered.

TigerLake-H would have wiped out AMD's entire Renoir lineup in a single blow, especially if they had lower-clocked versions at lower TDPs. Why they wouldn't at least prioritize a paper launch of that product with limited supplies is beyond me.

Business is not about "wiping out". It's about making money. Intel does what - they think - will make them the most money.

Living in a cocoon of reviews and forum flame wars, some people get carried away about who's wiping out whom, Intel RIP, AMD RIP, benchmarks, game fps, keynotes, leaks - all that crap.
All of this is made up to make you spend your free time thinking and talking about which CPUs is better - instead of using them for something useful.

Executives, in their offices, don't really care about being an enthusiast-friendly company, about dominating the market or even about making the best performing product they can make.
They focus on cashflows: what and how much they can make, cannibalization, marketing costs, cross-selling some other product that sucks on its own. Things like that.

No offence, but do you really think this is how Su dresses to work?

 

[mikk]

I'm still wondering a bit at TigerLake-H coming out in Q2 2021. Why is it going to be so late? How does that position it in Intel's product lineup? What does that tell us about Alder Lake-P?

ADL-P includes both U+H, it might tell us that the higher core version of ADL-P comes later than the lower core version of ADL-P. TGL-H won't have a core count disadvantage so they are fine with it until 2022.

 

[jpiniero]

Asus ZenBook 14 UX425E Review: 11th Gen Core i7 "Tiger Lake" Debut

Asus will be one of the first major OEMs to launch a family of Tiger Lake laptop this October. We test the upcoming ZenBook 14 UX425EA equipped with the Core i7-1165G7 to see how it compares to the rising popularity of AMD Ryzen alternatives.

www.notebookcheck.net

Tiger-U review of the Asus ZenBook. Performance is not amazing but they did skimp on using slow DDR4.

Edit: And also a review of the Zenbook Flip, which also doesn't inspire performance wise:

Asus ZenBook Flip S UX371 Review - Compact Convertible with Tiger Lake and OLED

Notebookcheck reviews the Asus ZenBook Flip S UX371 with the new Tiger Lake processor and OLED touchscreen.

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[jpiniero]

ADL-P includes both U+H, it might tell us that the higher core version of ADL-P comes later than the lower core version of ADL-P. TGL-H won't have a core count disadvantage so they are fine with it until 2022.

Wondering if big.LITTLE needs more time in the oven, hence Alder Lake-P is getting delayed. S doesn't have that problem since they could just release models with the small core disabled.

 

[Hitman928]

Asus ZenBook 14 UX425E Review: 11th Gen Core i7 "Tiger Lake" Debut

Asus will be one of the first major OEMs to launch a family of Tiger Lake laptop this October. We test the upcoming ZenBook 14 UX425EA equipped with the Core i7-1165G7 to see how it compares to the rising popularity of AMD Ryzen alternatives.

www.notebookcheck.net

Tiger-U review of the Asus ZenBook. Performance is not amazing but they did skimp on using slow DDR4.

Edit: And also a review of the Zenbook Flip, which also doesn't inspire performance wise:

Asus ZenBook Flip S UX371 Review - Compact Convertible with Tiger Lake and OLED

Notebookcheck reviews the Asus ZenBook Flip S UX371 with the new Tiger Lake processor and OLED touchscreen.

www.notebookcheck.net

Asus ZenBook 425E is using LPDDR4 4266 MT/s. The table at the beginning for graphics memory is wrong. They state the correct memory in the performance section and show screenshots of the memory running 4266 MT/s.

 

[mikk]

Asus ZenBook 14 UX425E Review: 11th Gen Core i7 "Tiger Lake" Debut

Asus will be one of the first major OEMs to launch a family of Tiger Lake laptop this October. We test the upcoming ZenBook 14 UX425EA equipped with the Core i7-1165G7 to see how it compares to the rising popularity of AMD Ryzen alternatives.

www.notebookcheck.net

Tiger-U review of the Asus ZenBook. Performance is not amazing but they did skimp on using slow DDR4.

Edit: And also a review of the Zenbook Flip, which also doesn't inspire performance wise:

Asus ZenBook Flip S UX371 Review - Compact Convertible with Tiger Lake and OLED

Notebookcheck reviews the Asus ZenBook Flip S UX371 with the new Tiger Lake processor and OLED touchscreen.

www.notebookcheck.net

The Zenbook runs at 18W PL1 and Flip at 15W PL1 with a relatively low temperature. In Witcher 3 the Zenbook Xe iGPU runs at only 850 Mhz using 18W package power and only 63 C core temperature, so no wonder the performance is bad. For example the Yoga Slim 7 can run with 86C.

 

[IntelUser2000]

The Acer does much better on gaming, despite the 17W PL1 at least. Also there's something seriously wrong with the Zenbook Flip S. The Acer Swift is 3x the performance in Witcher 3. X-Plane and DoTA shows 50-70% gains. Other reviews are saying the Flip is at 12W.

Also they are using the same 8439 driver as the 1185G7 preview system. The 8783, which is a launch driver for 11th Gen, released today.

https://downloadmirror.intel.com/29904/eng/ReleaseNotes_100.8783.pdf

Sampler Feedback support for Iris Xe in 8783.

 

[blckgrffn]

We won't know what memory will come in TGL-H laptops until they are announced. But Tiger Lake platform will support DDR5 when it is delivered.

Business is not about "wiping out". It's about making money. Intel does what - they think - will make them the most money.

Living in a cocoon of reviews and forum flame wars, some people get carried away about who's wiping out whom, Intel RIP, AMD RIP, benchmarks, game fps, keynotes, leaks - all that crap.
All of this is made up to make you spend your free time thinking and talking about which CPUs is better - instead of using them for something useful.

Executives, in their offices, don't really care about being an enthusiast-friendly company, about dominating the market or even about making the best performing product they can make.
They focus on cashflows: what and how much they can make, cannibalization, marketing costs, cross-selling some other product that sucks on its own. Things like that.

No offence, but do you really think this is how Su dresses to work?
View attachment 30685

I am not saying your wrong.

But it is really apparent when working for a company when the C level folks stop having enthusiasm for the product and focus only on "running a great business". Or really worse, just worried about their incentives (bonuses, salaries) which sometimes run at right angles to the longevity of the business and happiness of its employees. Executives who don't take time to be a part of their business but sit above it aren't that great, imo.

There is a balance, and it is palpably different when the execs stay integrated and enthusiastic about the core business in addition to all the wall street metrics. AMD seems to be getting back to that - Intel enjoyed this for quite some time. Apple's resurgence is testament to product focus combined with savvy business moves for long term success.

Whenever a former CFO takes over for a CEO I groan. Usually this has a great impact over a couple years in terms of balance sheet health but I've seen CFO's to CEO's make some sad decisions in companies I've been a part of.

When an engineer climbs the ranks, I am more guardedly optimistic they won't kill the golden goose.

I agree that many decisions are based on markets and not out of personal desires to attack/end other companies. I have, however, also been part of executing strategies that would make it less profitable for other businesses in the segment and preclude new entrants to a market in a such a fashion that was also not beneficial to the bottom line. To say business *always* act rationally is silly when we know they are run by humans

 

[mikk]

So the Acer Swift 5 is going for performance unlike Asus. Based on this I won't buy Asus, I have to assume all Asus devices are slow. Acer on the other hand might be an option for me.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Wait for Lenovo, Dell, and even better Microsoft if they release 25W versions.

The 1185G7 reference is still 20% faster. And that's only in graphics. CPU is no better than Icelake 25W in sustained. Good Icelake systems outperformed the reference design. So it still has a long way to go.

I hope drivers help too, but I haven't seen that from Intel notebooks happen in many years.

CPU-wise AMD is absolutely kicking their ass. 20% better ST performance is good, but the 4800U is 100% faster! Let's hope the 25W gets that down to 70-80% but that's still monumental. You can make the argument you don't do sustained and demanding workload on ultrabooks, but if you really believed that, you either have a $300 device or only use Android/iOS Tablets/Smartphones.

Tigerlake-H is going to close the gap with Renoir H a lot, and may even beat it a bit but I'm afraid that's all its going to do. Zen 3 cores on Cezanne will close lot of the single thread gaps, and iGPU, will be a lot faster, granted its less of an importance but still.

Battery life on AMD Renoir laptops are also great. Icelake is in catchup mode here.

 

[mikk]

Swift 3 runs with PL1 17W says Computerbase: https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/intel-tiger-lake-test/2/

Actually the game tests are quite good for a 17W config, it beats 25W 4800U in 2 of 3 games, only losing in Valorant but even the reference system struggled a bit there. AV1 decoding is not yet enabled in driver 27.20.100.8783.

 

[IntelUser2000]

They better get 40-50% gains over Renoir for graphics, because the CPU is hopelessly behind.

GPU is less important than CPU, and Renoir has a greater gap in CPU than Tigerlake does in GPU. Also, 20-25% gains at this level is not a lot, because that means a game that gets 30 fps(barely playable), gets to 37-38 fps(just playable).

This kind of performance back in July would have been great. Now its going to be firmly into October. The biggest thing it could save it is if Cezanne/Van Gogh devices are available by the Summer timeframe.

Vega to RDNA2 in 15W level with Van Gogh with Renoir's CPU efficiency might mean Tigerlake like gen-on-gen gains for games.

 

[Exist50]

We won't know what memory will come in TGL-H laptops until they are announced. But Tiger Lake platform will support DDR5 when it is delivered.

No, it will not.

 

[IntelUser2000]

LaptopMag is confirming the horrible performance of the Zenbook Flip S. The The Zenbook 13 is 30% faster in 3DMark and 50% faster in games.

So if its really set at PL1 of 12W, then its probably the worst device made in years. The 4K screen slashes battery life, while it costs $1449. It's $999 for the Zenbook 13 using the same config. So they cut PL1 and performance for what reason?

Ok, you get the Flip function, and I'm a fan of that, but that's way too big of a sacrifice. Even the Dell XPS 13 2-in-1, which I like to criticize is way better than the Flip.

And its part of the Intel EVO platform? At least the Ultrabook standard meant something. I haven't seen Project Athena nor EVO do anything in terms of efficiency. They say the components in an EVO device are approved for low power. Who does the component testing? Art degree students? Business graduates? Oh, let me guess: Marketers!

 

[TheGiant]

That's a bold claim, and I doubt it except maybe at 720p. Even 1080P will eventually be limited by the dGPU beyond a certain point.

LaptopMag is confirming the horrible performance of the Zenbook Flip S. The The Zenbook 13 is 30% faster in 3DMark and 50% faster in games.

So if its really set at PL1 of 12W, then its probably the worst device made in years. The 4K screen slashes battery life, while it costs $1449. It's $999 for the Zenbook 13 using the same config. So they cut PL1 and performance for what reason?

Ok, you get the Flip function, and I'm a fan of that, but that's way too big of a sacrifice. Even the Dell XPS 13 2-in-1, which I like to criticize is way better than the Flip.

And its part of the Intel EVO platform? At least the Ultrabook standard meant something. I haven't seen Project Athena nor EVO do anything in terms of efficiency. They say the components in an EVO device are approved for low power. Who does the component testing? Art degree students? Business graduates? Oh, let me guess: Marketers!

s..t
that was one of the surface lineup competitors thanks to 3:2 display, I accept 16:10 but not that crap of craps 16:9 on 13" device
looking at that review....they could place the lowest grade i5 in there
I never understood the lapcraptops that pretend to use the high end cpu but only on paper

CPU-wise AMD is absolutely kicking their ass.

in what exactly
throughput of render/compress/encode? whats low priority in that segment
I already made twice the mistake of byuing the "score" machine based on multi"insert" benchmark
one in mobile and one tablet, both instead of the apple products
while the high ST apple products are still usable, the both are just used as the SIM carrier after 4 years
my ipad 4 wtih a6x has similar performance and it is 8 years old

 

[IntelUser2000]

Ok, saying a CPU doesn't matter for games since you'll likely play at a sufficiently high resolution or such is silly.

If you really wanted the best gaming system, you get the best available. Simple as that. Also, reviews don't show everything, even when using the 99-percentile data. Because in multiplayer there will be lots of players and non-GPU aspects start to matter. Or if you want 100/144/240Hz monitors and gaming. Or if you are a competitive FPS person. Variability and permutations are impossible to fully account for. If there are 20 million high end PC gamers out there, that's 20 million different settings, configurations, and playstyles.

I think Intel is making the gaming excuse because they can't compete on high-end content creation scenarios, but that's a different story.

Alderlake I see is more about getting the mobile lead than anything else.

 

[caswow]

Swift 3 runs with PL1 17W says Computerbase: https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/intel-tiger-lake-test/2/

Actually the game tests are quite good for a 17W config, it beats 25W 4800U in 2 of 3 games, only losing in Valorant but even the reference system struggled a bit there. AV1 decoding is not yet enabled in driver 27.20.100.8783.

And loses in "real world tests" by 9% and heavy workload tests by 34% to a 15w 4800u. Game Benchmarks are the new cherries to pick i guess

 

[reb0rn]

and 15w ultra thin book will be used for 8 core render or whatever!?
you ppl are lost, first you look where those kind of HW is used then you look at benches and not hype AMD just to fix you ego

those laptop will be mostly used for work and not render !

 

[JoeRambo]

those laptop will be mostly used for work and not render !

Pfft, it is a well known secret that on Anandtech forums everyone either runs DC apps or renders something. On everything: from Rasberry PI 4 to high end workstation boards filled with Epycs.

Sarcasm aside I agree 100%, arguing that people need 8C in 15W "ultra mobile" performance and pushing that point with Cinebench benchmarks has nothing to with what people buying those premium laptops do.

 

[piokos]

and 15w ultra thin book will be used for 8 core render or whatever!?
you ppl are lost, first you look where those kind of HW is used then you look at benches and not hype AMD just to fix you ego

those laptop will be mostly used for work and not render !

I'm not sure what you expect on a typical DIY PC forum. Many people here spend more time building and tweaking a PC than actually using it. We can mock that, but it's a reasonable hobby.

Plus, this is the "CPU and OC" category, not the more realistic and sensible "Laptops".
Hence, whenever a mobile CPU discussion takes place here, it'll quickly taken over by people who don't really care about laptops - they're more interested in when this new tech comes to the desktop parts.

And it's still better than some places I've seen lately. There are (pretty popular) websites and forums where you'd be crucified for suggesting buying a MacBook.

 

[uzzi38]

and 15w ultra thin book will be used for 8 core render or whatever!?
you ppl are lost, first you look where those kind of HW is used then you look at benches and not hype AMD just to fix you ego

those laptop will be mostly used for work and not render !

We're also long past the point where you'll be able to notice any difference in system responsiveness/web browsing/traditional office work etc without technologies unrelated to the CPU such as Optane, or faster WiFi capabilities.

Fact of the matter is that be it Renoir or Tiger Lake, or be it the upcoming Cezanne or Van Gogh, your average everyday laptop user will be incapable of telling a difference between one system and the next.

 

[teejee]

and 15w ultra thin book will be used for 8 core render or whatever!?
you ppl are lost, first you look where those kind of HW is used then you look at benches and not hype AMD just to fix you ego

those laptop will be mostly used for work and not render !

Why should we care about Tigerlake i7 then? I have a 9 year old HP elitebook with i7 2620M CPU (2C4T Sandy Bridge, 3.4 GHz boost, W10, SSD). It handles simple office tasks great.

Tigerlake gives really good ST performance, that is true, but gaming performance in ultrabooks looks much worse than what Intel said at the launch.