Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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A///

Golden Member
Feb 24, 2017
1,502
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That's better English than many people speak natively! I'm guessing you don't like Linus? He has some good videos, but there are certainly clickbait ones too.
I thought he was joking. Every thing is fine with his post. I think most find him annoying because of his quirkiness. I didn't like him for years but find I watch his videos for the entertainment factor and because I sometimes gleam ideas off of his staff who do most of the work behind the scenes.

@Antey Your English is fine, dude.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
24,336
2,564
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Oh the golden times when we used to give TSMC flak for their nonsese node names...
Or we can just look at the processors, how they perform and forget the petty making fun of TSMC, Intel, etc for internal names that have no real meaning.

Anandtech, and Ian specifically, really took two steps back in my mind by putting out such an unimportant article. A PhD in one of the few respectable websites doesn't need to dive into such petty details. He could have spent time reviewing benefits and negatives of each of those dials in the article. But no, instead it focusses on petty internal personal bickering.
 

TheGiant

Senior member
Jun 12, 2017
748
353
106
Or we can just look at the processors, how they perform and forget the petty making fun of TSMC, Intel, etc for internal names that have no real meaning.

Anandtech, and Ian specifically, really took two steps back in my mind by putting out such an unimportant article. A PhD in one of the few respectable websites doesn't need to dive into such petty details. He could have spent time reviewing benefits and negatives of each of those dials in the article. But no, instead it focusses on petty internal personal bickering.
Exactly
Article now for nobody. No new info, no new insights.
And imo 10w for 4c atom @10nm is pretty bad.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
4,393
5,860
136
Or we can just look at the processors, how they perform and forget the petty making fun of TSMC, Intel, etc for internal names that have no real meaning.

Anandtech, and Ian specifically, really took two steps back in my mind by putting out such an unimportant article. A PhD in one of the few respectable websites doesn't need to dive into such petty details. He could have spent time reviewing benefits and negatives of each of those dials in the article. But no, instead it focusses on petty internal personal bickering.
I don't really care what they call it, but these aren't internal node names, they are marketing names.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
5,386
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So, let me guess. If Intel releases another updated 10nm node Ryan Smith would name it 10++++?
Let's be clear about this: these are the name Intel engineers and marketers use. They are not the names Ryan Smith invented.

Or we can just look at the processors, how they perform and forget the petty making fun of TSMC, Intel, etc for internal names that have no real meaning.
Except it is this very forum that is extremely interested in every node used for every CPU, and it is Intel who made a point out of the great advance of SuperFin. So let's not pretend we don't care which CPU uses which node. It's on the daily agenda.

Intel could have used whatever naming strategy they desired, but after Cannon Lake they thought about pulling a fast one and rename their 10+ into 10. This set in motion a very curious set of events that culminated with Intel marketing being unable to officially confirm the proper node for Elkhart Lake. Think about that, and the irony of Intel engineers still talking in 10+++ for SF.

Discussing yes
But that is wall of text with eveything known
The Last info is new atom=icelake's 10nm
Known for the forum, not for all the readers of Anandtech. And btw, you know latest Atom is on ICL 10nm because Anandtech made multiple inquires with Intel. Funny to accuse them of relaying stale info when it was them giving it to you on Twitter as well.
 

borandi

Member
Feb 27, 2011
138
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Given how much confusion there is about Intel's node names, internally to Intel, externally to Intel, and the financial scene, I wanted to create an article that addresses the exact nomenclature moving forward as well as the why. The fact that every time Intel launches a new product there's three different answers about the node on which it's being fabricated has gotten silly - you don't see the dozens of emails I have going back and forth with the engineers and the different communications teams, along with the internal politics at Intel that even I'm not privy to (at least, not on the record). Having a third-party independent analysis of the nomenclature explaining the differences and then offering a handy crib sheet helps everyone moving forward. Too much of my time has been dealing with miscommunication, or detailing this to readers/emailers/conference calls/financials.

In my mind this article was important, even if the only thing it might do is save my time in the future. If you don't like it, you don't have to refer to it. Perhaps it's not for you. But that's ok too.

Edit: I've already had comments from a number of financial analysts thanking me for the article. As well as making it amusing to read, and explaining the Cannon-to-Ice transition.
 

TheGiant

Senior member
Jun 12, 2017
748
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Known for the forum, not for all the readers of Anandtech. And btw, you know latest Atom is on ICL 10nm because Anandtech made multiple inquires with Intel. Funny to accuse them of relaying stale info when it was them giving it to you on Twitter as well.
I am not accusing anyone
don't get me wrong, the article as a recap is fine
but it lacks the anandtech's "and now what"
some new insights...
Ian is overloaded, needs a break imo

Given how much confusion there is about Intel's node names, internally to Intel, externally to Intel, and the financial scene, I wanted to create an article that addresses the exact nomenclature moving forward as well as the why. The fact that every time Intel launches a new product there's three different answers about the node on which it's being fabricated has gotten silly - you don't see the dozens of emails I have going back and forth with the engineers and the different communications teams, along with the internal politics at Intel that even I'm not privy to (at least, not on the record). Having a third-party independent analysis of the nomenclature explaining the differences and then offering a handy crib sheet helps everyone moving forward. Too much of my time has been dealing with miscommunication, or detailing this to readers/emailers/conference calls/financials.

In my mind this article was important, even if the only thing it might do is save my time in the future. If you don't like it, you don't have to refer to it. Perhaps it's not for you. But that's ok too.

Edit: I've already had comments from a number of financial analysts thanking me for the article. As well as making it amusing to read, and explaining the Cannon-to-Ice transition.
as I said, the article as recap is fine, maybe the best on the internet in the crap of WTFtech etc
but as it has the recap quality, it has little to zero of "whats is next"
that is IMO the same as others up are referring to
 
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mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
3,717
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Oh the golden times when we used to give TSMC flak for their nonsese node names...

View attachment 30459
Exactly this:

My take is that whoever had the bright idea to knock Ice Lake down from 10+ to 10 (and then Tiger from 10++ to 10+ etc.), in order to protect the company from addressing issues with the Cannon Lake product, drastically failed at predicting the fallout that this name change would bring.
 

Cardyak

Member
Sep 12, 2018
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Not sure what everyone is complaining about regarding the node naming article. Intel has completely obfuscated any real communication in node naming and provided no transparency on their future direction since the whole 14nm++++ debacle.

I for one, am glad Ian decided to take the initiative to engage with Intel’s marketing, clarify the new direction and naming structure, and inform the readers.

We’ve tried taking the ”ignorance is bliss” route, and Intel have proven they will just exploit that level of opaqueness to disguise their manufacturing failing. It is time for journalists to chase up the relevant companies and start pressuring them for exact clarity on:

- The node used in a given product
- The parameters of the node
- The changes and delta between each node

PhD or not, Ian always provides a high level of transparency on his articles and is incredibly forthright, any further questions can be sent to him via his Twitter and he will normally respond quickly and professionally, can’t really ask for much more.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
20,519
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Hey, I didn't know Alder Lake was going to be on yet another update of Intel 10nm (10SFE?). Wonder how that's going to work out.
 

TheGiant

Senior member
Jun 12, 2017
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Hey, I didn't know Alder Lake was going to be on yet another update of Intel 10nm (10SFE?). Wonder how that's going to work out.
Yep
Intel presented it at the tiger lake event 2 september i think that was
Enhanced super fin......
No info on gracemont cores atm
My prediction is alder lake will have 50% higher gaming min fps than 10900k
 

borandi

Member
Feb 27, 2011
138
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as I said, the article as recap is fine, maybe the best on the internet in the crap of WTFtech etc
but as it has the recap quality, it has little to zero of "whats is next"
that is IMO the same as others up are referring to
Recaps are good. Especially when people don't know all the details and/or the details have been obfuscated. Not everyone follows everything, so having a singular place to find the info is usually a good thing.
In academia the similar concept of a 'literature review' exists, and literature reviews are papers within their own right. My first research paper was a literature review.

The 'what is next' is the 10nm Enhanced SuperFin. We haven't even got all the 10nm SuperFin products in market yet. If you're asking 'what is next' as it refers to 3+ years down the line, then you should know me by now - I don't deal in a lot of speculation.
 
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x_marX

Member
Apr 23, 2020
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Any idea on when the Desktop Rocket Lake launches?
Should be at least 10% faster than the 10th gen, right?

I'm sick of websites selling AMD processors at a premium over here. And I'm thinking of going with Intel for my upcoming build.
 

Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
1,138
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Any idea on when the Desktop Rocket Lake launches?
Should be at least 10% faster than the 10th gen, right?

I'm sick of websites selling AMD processors at a premium over here. And I'm thinking of going with Intel for my upcoming build.
Ideally in 2020 Q4, but Intel punctuality means probably 2021 Q1 or Q2.

Rocket Lake will use Sunny/Willow Cove, already proven in Ice/Tiger Lake to have on average 1.18x IPC of Skylake. Rocket Lake has been seen to run 5.0 GHz (Geekbench), which suggests frequency won't decline too much from Comet Lake's.

I was going through Tom's Hardware GeForce RTX 3080 CPU scaling article to see how "IPC" relates to gaming performance:
Comparing Core i3-10100 (4.1 GHz all-core) to i7-4770K OC (4.3 GHz), same config of 4 cores + HT, the i3-10100 gets 1.237x the frame rate of i7-4770K. Now, I don't remember Skylake having greater than 1.23x performance per clock than Haswell does.

Individual games:
Game​
i7-4770K 4.3 GHz​
i3-10100 4.1 GHz​
Ratio​
Borderlands 3​
120.0​
141.2​
1.177​
The Division 2​
122.0​
157.1​
1.288​
Far Cry 5​
95.0​
125.0​
1.316​
Final Fantasy XIV​
171.4​
187.9​
1.096​
Forza Horizon 4​
120.4​
157.4​
1.307​
Metro Exodus​
87.7​
109.1​
1.244​
Red Dead Redemption 2​
102.5​
118.5​
1.156​
Shadow of the Tomb Raider​
95.5​
134.6​
1.409​
Strange Brigade​
250.9​
310.7​
1.238​
 
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SAAA

Senior member
May 14, 2014
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Ideally in 2020 Q4, but Intel punctuality means probably 2021 Q1 or Q2.

Rocket Lake will use Sunny/Willow Cove, already proven in Ice/Tiger Lake to have on average 1.18x IPC of Skylake. Rocket Lake has been seen to run 5.0 GHz (Geekbench), which suggests frequency won't decline too much from Comet Lake's.

I was going through Tom's Hardware GeForce RTX 3080 CPU scaling article to see how "IPC" relates to gaming performance:
Comparing Core i3-10100 (4.1 GHz all-core) to i7-4770K OC (4.3 GHz), same config of 4 cores + HT, the i3-10100 gets 1.237x the frame rate of i7-4770K. Now, I don't remember Skylake having greater than 1.23x performance per clock than Haswell does.

Individual games:
Game​
i7-4770K 4.3 GHz​
i3-10100 4.1 GHz​
Ratio​
Borderlands 3​
120.0​
141.2​
1.177​
The Division 2​
122.0​
157.1​
1.288​
Far Cry 5​
95.0​
125.0​
1.316​
Final Fantasy XIV​
171.4​
187.9​
1.096​
Forza Horizon 4​
120.4​
157.4​
1.307​
Metro Exodus​
87.7​
109.1​
1.244​
Red Dead Redemption 2​
102.5​
118.5​
1.156​
Shadow of the Tomb Raider​
95.5​
134.6​
1.409​
Strange Brigade​
250.9​
310.7​
1.238​
That's the infamous Skylake's "gaming" IPC. It held so well for 5-6 years because of great gaming results improved by higher cpu and memory clocks over time.
The same happened for other niche softwares (3d cad) were it displays well over ~5% IPC that was measured on average vs Haswell.

As for rocket lake it will probably have slightly less IPC than Tiger or Ice lake if the rumors are true, still above Skylake and definitely with similar clockspeeds.

Now what I haven't found yet is purely gaming comparisons between Icelake and Skylake. I know there's only mobile CPUs out but some test with the same discrete GPU and memory could work. Even more interesting would be Tiger with the wider caches...
 

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