Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[NTMBK]

All of these issues, ... performance, sales, and pricing are "Lakes" issues.

Sounds like a job for...

 

[DrMrLordX]

Remember the last time people used Mindfactory data in this thread and the derail that followed? Even if I openly support taking into account this type of vendor data as long as it's being used to interpret a DYI trend, I also see how toxic it is for the thread when used as bait.

You have a point, and I'll admit the presentation could have been better. It's really down to whether or not people are willing to take the bait, I guess . . .

Well, if we're going full-meta, the thread title was originally "Intel Cannonlake, Ice Lake, Tiger Lake & Sapphire rapid thread". The fact that nearly 4 years and over 10,000 posts later, Intel still hasn't finished launching the full product stack of even the second "lake" on that list and has changed their roadmap so many times that the thread was renamed, speaks volumes.

This thread is old enough that it was meant to cover everything post-Skylake since

a). those products essentially didn't exist in any commercial quantity
b). there were some nagging questions as to how or when Intel would move on to a new uarch

I don't think anybody could have predicted that things would proceed in quite this fashion. It would be a bit inappropriate to have dedicated threads to Cannonlake and Ice Lake specifically, since those threads would mostly be dead now (except for people looking to discuss Ice Lake-SP, which is still . . . not widely available, to put it lightly). Tiger Lake is currently the only product line that is active for Intel with the impending release of 8c Tiger Lake-H.

There needs to be a place for people to actively submit news and discussion related to Intel's ongoing efforts related to fabbing on advanced nodes and releasing new products. You just can't tell what exactly they're going to do or which product lines will wind up in the DiY sector, if any. It looks to me like Intel may be on the verge of abandoning DiY for awhile, especially if the sales figures from Mindfactory are indicative of what is happening to Intel at other etailers/retailors worldwide. Why should they keep seeding the channel only to get beaten up like that? Motherboard OEMs can't be happy about the situation. Sure Alder Lake-S could turn things around, but if Intel has any decisions to make about where to commit dice (OEMs, DiY) , why would they prioritize DiY? At all? Mindfactory didn't even sell 120 11900k CPUs in an entire month. The 11600k didn't show up at the 120 mark either, and the 11400 - budget darling of the Rocket Lake lineup - only managed 160 units. The 11400 is probably the best chip to come out of Rocket Lake at its price point, and at least at Mindfactory, it doesn't seem like customers are lining up to buy one. With the shortage of competitor's CPUs out there, you would think Intel would get a few "oh well, at least it's available" sales but at Mindfactory . . . not so much.

The 11700k which somewhat obviates the need for a 11900k only managed to sell 240 units. It was outsold by the 10850k and 10700k, which reinforces my previous statements that Comet Lake may be Rocket Lake's worst enemy.

IMO it is absurd to have a single thread for everything Intel while AMD has a thread to every family of products, every generation.

It made more sense to have 1 thread for everything skylake based, but IMO now, when we multiple quite different products we should move on from this thread.

Maybe? What would you discuss? It's easier to have a thread for each family of products when the product stack is coherent and at least somewhat up-to-date. To echo @coercitiv 's general sentiment that this is a DiY thread, how many of Intel's post-Skylake CPUs are relevant to DiY? Cannonlake? No. Ice Lake? No. Tiger Lake? Not yet, and probably not even with Tiger Lake-H. That leaves us with Rocket Lake and what else?

 

[Zucker2k]

IMO it is absurd to have a single thread for everything Intel while AMD has a thread to every family of products, every generation.

It made more sense to have 1 thread for everything skylake based, but IMO now, when we multiple quite different products we should move on from this thread.

Have we forgotten so soon the brain behind this mega monstrosity of a thread? The irony is right there in your "likes."

 

[B-Riz]

IMO it is absurd to have a single thread for everything Intel while AMD has a thread to every family of products, every generation.

It made more sense to have 1 thread for everything skylake based, but IMO now, when we multiple quite different products we should move on from this thread.

Imma throw some gas on this fire, I tried to search for an Intel 10 Series / Comet Lake Builders thread, nothing. Would have been nice to have something like we do for Zen to reference as I am debating a 10600K to fiddle with.

 

[B-Riz]

I think the MindFactory data is interesting and does belong in this thread.

I didn't take it as a dig against Intel/Rocket Lake. It's the sales ramifications, albeit from one source, of Intel's recent engineering/design decisions with the "Lakes."

I was looking yesterday at a 6c/12t 10 or 11 series, and, there are not decent budget boards for sale right now, everything is back ordered.

I refuse to spend more than $150 for a Z590 board, beyond that, I will just get another nice X570.

Maybe that is why sales are low on this stuff; yeah the CPU's are cheap, but the boards are expensive.

 

[blckgrffn]

I was looking yesterday at a 6c/12t 10 or 11 series, and, there are not decent budget boards for sale right now, everything is back ordered.

I refuse to spend more than $150 for a Z590 board, beyond that, I will just get another nice X570.

Maybe that is why sales are low on this stuff; yeah the CPU's are cheap, but the boards are expensive.

That’s been my usual experience with Intel. That’s why lately I’ve been all B360/365 boards. Only last fall when there was no Zen 3 to buy did I step up and spend $230+ on a board for a 10850k. Otherwise since overclocking is a nonstarter and I am not buying the beast SKUs the “lesser” boards are fine.

 

[Ajay]

IMO it is absurd to have a single thread for everything Intel while AMD has a thread to every family of products, every generation.

It made more sense to have 1 thread for everything sky-lake based, but IMO now, when we multiple quite different products we should move on from this thread.

I agree, it's gone far enough. Maybe you could make a thread for Adler Lake and it's follow on 10nm products clearly spelled out in the title (or Intel 10nm Client/Server CPUs, IDK). Then someone can do 7nm Intel thread. I've tried that before, but you have to keep posting good stuff for it to pick up steam - it's hard to beat the momentum of large threads. Best of luck!

 

[Hulk]

"Alder Lake and 10nm desktop" would be a good thread title. But I'm a little nostalgic about letting this one go!

Or maybe "Alder Lake and other Intel 10nm Enthusiast Processors." Might be nice to discuss Tiger Lake(s) along with Alder Lake.

 

[Exist50]

"Alder Lake and 10nm desktop" would be a good thread title. But I'm a little nostalgic about letting this one go!

Or maybe "Alder Lake and other Intel 10nm Enthusiast Processors." Might be nice to discuss Tiger Lake(s) along with Alder Lake.

If nothing else, Raptor Lake should probably fall in the same bucket.

 

[Panino Manino]

I think the MindFactory data is interesting and does belong in this thread.

Someting interesting I noticed looking those graphs is that MindFactory must LOVE AMD. Look how their sales increased since Zen launched.
AMD having a good product that makes the consumer believes (and they right) that gives them more for less does good for this whole industry.

Is possible that CPU sales will increase even more after Intel solves its problems and start to offer the same in the ways of consumers?

 

[repoman27]

I like this thread a lot, but just taking an objective look at it, there are some fairly logical points where it could be divided.

It was originally started to discuss the post Skylake / 10nm processor families that were on Intel's roadmap at the time: Cannon Lake, Ice Lake, Tiger Lake, and Sapphire Rapids. As we eventually learned, these processors included Palm Cove, Sunny Cove, and Willow Cove cores on various attempts at a 10nm manufacturing process: 10, 10+ > 10, and 10++ > 10+ > 10SF. Most of the subsequent 14nm Skylake refreshes were simply added to the existing Skylake thread, although I believe Comet Lake got its own spot. Rocket Lake with its Cypress Cove cores was a bit of a mongrel, being a 14nm backport of Sunny Cove along with Gen12 Xe Graphics, and it sort of made sense to include it here. Emerald Rapids looks like another crack at Willow Cove on 10SF, or essentially Sapphire Rapids Refresh, so it also makes sense to tack it on to this thread.

Alder Lake with Golden Cove and Gracemont cores marks the beginning of the hybrid architecture era for Intel client CPUs. It's not just another refresh, and the code name wasn't even publicly known when this thread was started. Alder Lake, Raptor Lake, and Granite Rapids would make a lot of sense as their own thread seeing as they are all future platforms based on Golden Cove / 10ESF. Likewise for Meteor Lake, Lunar Lake, and Diamond Rapids, which I believe are all Ocean Cove / 7nm.

It does seem like this thread has always been much more roadmap / leak / future product focused, rather than a builder's thread discussing released / available products.

 

[Tarkin77]

Igor's Lab shared some details on an ADL-S B0-Stepping ES

Exclusive info about Intel’s Alder Lake-S – Will the Intel Core-1800 be a threat to AMD? | igor'sLAB

Disclaimer: The following article is machine translated from the original German, and has not been edited or checked for errors. Thank you for understanding!

www.igorslab.de

correct me if I am wrong, but B0 sounds not "early" ... on the contrary. (RKL retail is B0, isn't it?)

If these clocks (4.6 1-2 core and 4.0 all-core) are near final .... that doesn't look very promising to me.

 

[coercitiv]

If these clocks (4.6 1-2 core and 4.0 all-core) are near final .... that doesn't look very promising to me.

ES clocks and early benchmark leaks always give you information about the minimum performance to expect, not the final performance. Max boost @ 4.6Ghz is a good place to be considering it can probably squeeze something extra until the end of the year, which means the 4.0 all-core clocks are entirely limited by power consumption.

The only warning this ES gives us is the separated clock domains for big and small cores (and I mean that in the sense of relative difference, not linkage). I think that from now on we can seriously consider the small cores won't clock as high as the big cores, even if neither cores in the ES are working at final max frequency.

 

[coercitiv]

Someting interesting I noticed looking those graphs is that MindFactory must LOVE AMD. Look how their sales increased since Zen launched.

You know what MindFactory loves? >>> the free publicity they get just from releasing sales data.

 

[DrMrLordX]

You know what MindFactory loves? >>> the free publicity they get just from releasing sales data.

Pity more etailers don't do the same thing.

 

[jpiniero]

Intel 11th Gen Core (Tiger Lake-H) notebook series specifications have leaked - VideoCardz.com

Full specifications of Intel Tiger Lake-H have been leaked HD-Tecnologia has shared a launch presentation for the upcoming 11th Gen Core H-series. No more secrets, the full specs of the Tiger Lake-H series have now been revealed. Although Intel already introduced its Tiger Lake CPUs months ago...

videocardz.com

Videocardz got the Intel Tiger Lake-H slides from the launch. Says embargo is until May 11th.

Also, the 8 core i7 only has turbo boost to 4.6 and all core to 4.2. Guess they have to give a reason to sell the H35.

 

[eek2121]

Intel 11th Gen Core (Tiger Lake-H) notebook series specifications have leaked - VideoCardz.com

Full specifications of Intel Tiger Lake-H have been leaked HD-Tecnologia has shared a launch presentation for the upcoming 11th Gen Core H-series. No more secrets, the full specs of the Tiger Lake-H series have now been revealed. Although Intel already introduced its Tiger Lake CPUs months ago...

videocardz.com

Videocardz got the Intel Tiger Lake-H slides from the launch. Says embargo is until May 11th.

Also, the 8 core i7 only has turbo boost to 4.6 and all core to 4.2. Guess they have to give a reason to sell the H35.

The reviews are going to be really interesting. These chips appear to perform just as well as Zen 3. We will see how things play out. If Intel can stick with Zen 3 while not having supply issues (and while not sending prices through the roof) they may have a winner.

 

[coercitiv]

The reviews are going to be really interesting. These chips appear to perform just as well as Zen 3. We will see how things play out. If Intel can stick with Zen 3 while not having supply issues (and while not sending prices through the roof) they may have a winner.

The really interesting part will be when someone decides to connect a high-end TGL-H laptop to an external GPU enclosure and test performance versus desktop CPUs. That's when we'll find out just how inspired the backporting was for performance reasons...

I'm extremely curious to see inter-core latency for TGL-H. (while being cautiously optimistic)

 

[scineram]

Igor's Lab shared some details on an ADL-S B0-Stepping ES

Exclusive info about Intel’s Alder Lake-S – Will the Intel Core-1800 be a threat to AMD? | igor'sLAB

Disclaimer: The following article is machine translated from the original German, and has not been edited or checked for errors. Thank you for understanding!

www.igorslab.de

correct me if I am wrong, but B0 sounds not "early" ... on the contrary. (RKL retail is B0, isn't it?)

If these clocks (4.6 1-2 core and 4.0 all-core) are near final .... that doesn't look very promising to me.

If this thing launches this year it better not be early sample.

 

[B-Riz]

Someting interesting I noticed looking those graphs is that MindFactory must LOVE AMD. Look how their sales increased since Zen launched.
AMD having a good product that makes the consumer believes (and they right) that gives them more for less does good for this whole industry.

Is possible that CPU sales will increase even more after Intel solves its problems and start to offer the same in the ways of consumers?

I think it is a combination of a few things:

AMD has a lot of same socket upgradability, so someone can buy a good enough Zen1 / Zen2 right now and get a Zen3 later.

A lot of cheap new and used boards that are good enough to run most AM4 CPU's.

PCIE4 NVME drives, hey, it's 1 bigger than Intel's PCIE3 capability.

Intel 10 and 11 series are not clear dominators in any price bracket right now; Zen2 and Zen3 are very competitive, and people seem to be buying more on specific use cases (how much gaming / productivity one does) than "Intel still faster" like with Zen1.

New Intel 1200 boards are expensive compared to new AMD AM4 boards

Now that AMD has had a good product out for a few years, people are less scared to try AMD.

This is what a healthy x86 CPU ecosystem looks like, and, we have not had it from the time Core 2 Duo launched until Zen1 launched. That was a long period where people were pretty much forced to pay Intel tax for incremental IPC increases.

 

[eek2121]

The really interesting part will be when someone decides to connect a high-end TGL-H laptop to an external GPU enclosure and test performance versus desktop CPUs. That's when we'll find out just how inspired the backporting was for performance reasons...

I'm extremely curious to see inter-core latency for TGL-H. (while being cautiously optimistic)

Mobile RTX 3080 should give us an idea of performance. We will also likely see full blown desktop parts in some of the higher end design.

Personally, from either Intel OR AMD I would like to see:

1. Weight 2-3.5 lbs
2. 8 cores
3. 4K screen
4. Mobile 3060, 3070, 3080 or AMD equivalent.
5. Full keyboard (backlit)
6. 15” (better: 16” using thin bezels)
7. Decent battery life for non-gaming stuff

From there I would pick based on price/performance. Linux compatibility is also a must. Thunderbolt compatibility helps, but is not a must.

That is why Tiger Lake intrigues me. Intel looks like they may be able to help deliver in this area.

 

[B-Riz]

Mobile RTX 3080 should give us an idea of performance. We will also likely see full blown desktop parts in some of the higher end design.

Personally, from either Intel OR AMD I would like to see:

1. Weight 2-3.5 lbs
2. 8 cores
3. 4K screen
4. Mobile 3060, 3070, 3080 or AMD equivalent.
5. Full keyboard (backlit)
6. 15” (better: 16” using thin bezels)
7. Decent battery life for non-gaming stuff

From there I would pick based on price/performance. Linux compatibility is also a must. Thunderbolt compatibility helps, but is not a must.

That is why Tiger Lake intrigues me. Intel looks like they may be able to help deliver in this area.

Sounds like you want a MacBook Pro or something, I don't think there is a Windows / Linux laptop that light, maybe the Razer Blade?

 

[mikk]

Igor's Lab shared some details on an ADL-S B0-Stepping ES

Exclusive info about Intel’s Alder Lake-S – Will the Intel Core-1800 be a threat to AMD? | igor'sLAB

Disclaimer: The following article is machine translated from the original German, and has not been edited or checked for errors. Thank you for understanding!

www.igorslab.de

correct me if I am wrong, but B0 sounds not "early" ... on the contrary. (RKL retail is B0, isn't it?)

If these clocks (4.6 1-2 core and 4.0 all-core) are near final .... that doesn't look very promising to me.

B0 doesn't say that much, Intel launched Haswell and Skylake in C0. But even if it's final, this model could be a low end 8+8 version. In this document this ES is named Core-1800. There could be 19xx versions. On Tigerlake-H 8C the 800H SKU is the slowest clocked 8C.

11800H max 4.6 Ghz
11900H max 4.9 Ghz
11980HK max 5.0 Ghz

 

[repoman27]

If this thing launches this year it better not be early sample.

Yeah, it says "ES2" right in the spec sheet image, which would be the third and generally final round of engineering samples before QS. Just as an example:

 

[coercitiv]

Sounds like you want a MacBook Pro or something, I don't think there is a Windows / Linux laptop that light, maybe the Razer Blade?

There isn't any period, the 16" MB Pro is 4.3 lbs and the 15" Razer starts at 4.6 lbs. Only the 13" MB Pro with iGPU is ~ 3 lbs