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Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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lyonwonder

Junior Member
Dec 29, 2018
16
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I wonder if Intel will eventually migrate its big and little cores strategy with Alder Lake to workstation and server class Xeons and HEDT chips, or will Intel just limit little cores to mobile and consumer desktop, though I'm unsure if Xeons with little cores would benefit servers? In any case Intel's current server chips already have most of its die space committed to dozens of big cores.
 
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Asterox

Senior member
May 15, 2012
502
728
136
Very similar iGPU performace, or for AMD old high clocked Vega 8 iGPU is still quite enough.As we see, in general as expected iGPU(Iris XE 96 EU) gaming Tiger Lake eats more power.

If we just replace old Vega 8CU iGPU with RDNA2 8CU iGPU........................................... :mask:

Intel and GPU-s, well it is sad I hope no one expects too much from Intel discrete GPU-s.

 

tomatosummit

Member
Mar 21, 2019
48
27
61
I wonder if Intel will eventually migrate its big and little cores strategy with Alder Lake to workstation and server class Xeons and HEDT chips, or will Intel just limit little cores to mobile and consumer desktop, though I'm unsure if Xeons with little cores would benefit servers? In any case Intel's current server chips already have most of its die space committed to dozens of big cores.
I don't think we'll see them for quite a while. With chiplets, io dies and active interposers coming I do think having some spare silicon space for a 4core low power cluster would be easy to fit into these cpus but then it's competing with space for igpu, fpga, l4 cache sort of things and to go too far in the other direction using the efficient cores for the majority of the compute you end up with knights landing which has soured the idea and will be where XE devices come in.
I like the idea of a small cluster somewhere on a big server cpu doing low priority tasks while the big cores are doing the actual serving but I don't design cpus.
Xeons on lga1700 are where you will see alderlake-s and that kind of budget server is probably the best place for intel's hybrid designs to go, these machines running overnight/all day doing tertiary tasks with occasional bursts required.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,221
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Very similar iGPU performace, or for AMD old high clocked Vega 8 iGPU is still quite enough.As we see, in general as expected iGPU(Iris XE 96 EU) gaming Tiger Lake eats more power.

If we just replace old Vega 8CU iGPU with RDNA2 8CU iGPU........................................... :mask:

Intel and GPU-s, well it is sad I hope no one expects too much from Intel discrete GPU-s.

Well if Nvidia sells GT1030, AND GT1030 DDR4, and AMD sells RX550 and RX550 64 bit, i dont see why Intel cant do the same. The level of performance you see on a high clocked Vega 8 is around the RX550 128 bit, and that is not that far away from a RX560. a 8CU RDNA2 iGPU with DDR4 would already be RX560 performance class.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
9,197
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I wonder if Intel will eventually migrate its big and little cores strategy with Alder Lake to workstation and server class Xeons and HEDT chips, or will Intel just limit little cores to mobile and consumer desktop, though I'm unsure if Xeons with little cores would benefit servers? In any case Intel's current server chips already have most of its die space committed to dozens of big cores.
Unlikely. Even the Alder Lake Xeon E will probably won't have any small cores enabled. It's a good place to dump dies with busted small cores and IGP.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
5,756
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APU performance in some ways is always going to be limited by memory bandwidth so there's not a lot of incentive to chase performance. Rather, being able to achieve that performance level with less die space or better yet power draw is going to be better for AMD/Intel and the customers.

Also, we should be glad the memory bandwidth holds them back, or crazed Etherium miners would be buying up all of the APUs in order to mine with them. Sadly, I'm only half joking here.
 
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reb0rn

Member
Dec 31, 2009
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Forget DDR5, with this new damn chia crypto everyone will be looking into having +250gb ram in order to use a ramdisk for plotting since that process kills a 1TB NVME in matter of days. The high-capacity of DDR5 will make it impossible to get.
You can not plot on RAM there is almost zero benefit from using it vs 2x NVME disk also when you done with ploting you do not need NVME disk!
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
3,120
938
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Very similar iGPU performace, or for AMD old high clocked Vega 8 iGPU is still quite enough.As we see, in general as expected iGPU(Iris XE 96 EU) gaming Tiger Lake eats more power.

If we just replace old Vega 8CU iGPU with RDNA2 8CU iGPU........................................... :mask:

Intel and GPU-s, well it is sad I hope no one expects too much from Intel discrete GPU-s.


This is a showcase model, similar story to 4800U. Relevant models are 4500U and 4700U - they are losing against i5-1135G7 and i7-1165G7. What jpiniero told there is nonsense. Only a small percentage of AMD devices can keep up. Lucienne is slowly coming and basically nothing from Cezanne-U.
 

uzzi38

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2019
1,522
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This is a showcase model, similar story to 4800U. Relevant models are 4500U and 4700U - they are losing against i5-1135G7 and i7-1165G7. What jpiniero told there is nonsense. Only a small percentage of AMD devices can keep up. Lucienne is slowly coming and basically nothing from Cezanne-U.
Except he bought a model at retail. TechEpiphany doesn't get samples, he buys the laptops like any normal person would.

At this point you're just coping.
 
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Asterox

Senior member
May 15, 2012
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Mindfactory CPU sales numbers for April 2021.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/n39hxn
Huh, Rocket Lake is seling like a flat tire at Tour de France or Giro d'Italia. :grimacing:

2021-05-03_001840.jpg

As expected, best seling R5 3600 it is still sold in large quantities.

Approximately a month ago, Mindfactory started seling R5 4650G Renoir APU.It is currently sold out or not available, but still it managed to sell more units vs two Rocket Lake CPU models.

https://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/AMD-Ryzen-5-4650G-4-3GHz-So-AM4-11MB-Cache--Tray-_1370228.html

2021-05-03_003448.jpg
 
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eek2121

Senior member
Aug 2, 2005
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Huh, Rocket Lake is seling like a flat tire at Tour de France or Giro d'Italia.
This is a thread for discussing current and future Intel architectures, not a thread for constant hating on Intel, and definitely not a thread for talking about APU performance except as it relates to the topic. Please take your Anti-Intel banter elsewhere.

We get it. AMD has a better (current) architecture. We know this. I have all AND machines in my house, however I have an interest in both new tech from both companies, and the constant off topic banter is an annoyance.

EDIT: I want to be clear. that I think your post has merit, but not in it’s thread. Such a topic would be better in a new thread.

That being said, apparently the 11980HX will be available May 11th. Hopefully this means we will get an Anandtech preview pretty soon. I am extremely interested in this chip, in 65W mode it should perform similar to the 11700K while using significantly less power.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
17,132
6,132
136
@Asterox

The 10900k and 11900k aren't even in the top 20 there. Whew.

@eek2121

Even if you don't like the presentation of data, you have to admit that it's telling which Intel CPUs are still selling and which aren't. My main concern with the 11980HX and all other 10nm chips would be supply. How many of these can Intel actually push onto the open market? Will they be available to the DiY crowd?
 
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coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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Even if you don't like the presentation of data, you have to admit that it's telling which Intel CPUs are still selling and which aren't.
Remember the last time people used Mindfactory data in this thread and the derail that followed? Even if I openly support taking into account this type of vendor data as long as it's being used to interpret a DYI trend, I also see how toxic it is for the thread when used as bait.
 

Hulk

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,997
436
126
I think the MindFactory data is interesting and does belong in this thread.

I didn't take it as a dig against Intel/Rocket Lake. It's the sales ramifications, albeit from one source, of Intel's recent engineering/design decisions with the "Lakes."
 
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LightningZ71

Senior member
Mar 10, 2017
727
657
136
Since this thread has gone meta:

Do we think that the sales information on a "lakes" processor, either directly, or in relation to its market competition, is relevant to a discussion about those processors? If so, what are the allowed sources of such sales information, especially since the only freely accessible data we have is from a source that seems to be disallowed here?

I argue that, since the primary goal of making these processors is to sell them for commercial purposes, the sales data on them is quite important, in addition to the technical discussion of those products. This thread isn't titled "Only technical discussion on Intel Lakes processors", so it isn't excluded by the thread title.
 

Hulk

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,997
436
126
Since this thread has gone meta:

Do we think that the sales information on a "lakes" processor, either directly, or in relation to its market competition, is relevant to a discussion about those processors? If so, what are the allowed sources of such sales information, especially since the only freely accessible data we have is from a source that seems to be disallowed here?

I argue that, since the primary goal of making these processors is to sell them for commercial purposes, the sales data on them is quite important, in addition to the technical discussion of those products. This thread isn't titled "Only technical discussion on Intel Lakes processors", so it isn't excluded by the thread title.
I concede those are valid points. I think more information is a good thing in general. It's up to the reader to vet that data for relevance and accuracy. I am fully aware that Dell alone will purchase magnitudes of orders more parts than the DIY market. But the "possible" lack of DIY sales in relation to the competition is also interesting because it provides additional insight into the part as it functions as a whole in the environment of computing.

Furthermore, at 418 pages I wouldn't exactly call this thread "tight and on topic." It has rambled about and is more a blog at this point so again, in this thread, under these circumstances I think the post is beneficial and warranted as it does directly relate to Rocket Lake.

Finally, the thread title doesn't specifically mention architecture, it's a pretty broad title, which can encompass sales data.

"Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread"
 

repoman27

Member
Dec 17, 2018
65
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Well, if we're going full-meta, the thread title was originally "Intel Cannonlake, Ice Lake, Tiger Lake & Sapphire rapid thread". The fact that nearly 4 years and over 10,000 posts later, Intel still hasn't finished launching the full product stack of even the second "lake" on that list and has changed their roadmap so many times that the thread was renamed, speaks volumes.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,308
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Do we think that the sales information on a "lakes" processor, either directly, or in relation to its market competition, is relevant to a discussion about those processors? If so, what are the allowed sources of such sales information, especially since the only freely accessible data we have is from a source that seems to be disallowed here?
My take is using MF data to discuss DYI trends is open game, using it as bait should be deterred. Comparing Rocket Lake to a flat tire does sound more like bait than sales analysis to me.
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
9,226
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I concede those are valid points. I think more information is a good thing in general. It's up to the reader to vet that data for relevance and accuracy. I am fully aware that Dell alone will purchase magnitudes of orders more parts than the DIY market. But the "possible" lack of DIY sales in relation to the competition is also interesting because it provides additional insight into the part as it functions as a whole in the environment of computing.

Furthermore, at 418 pages I wouldn't exactly call this thread "tight and on topic." It has rambled about and is more a blog at this point so again, in this thread, under these circumstances I think the post is beneficial and warranted as it does directly relate to Rocket Lake.

Finally, the thread title doesn't specifically mention architecture, it's a pretty broad title, which can encompass sales data.

"Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread"
So what you're saying is that this thread is ridiculously broad and unfocused?
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,264
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IMO it is absurd to have a single thread for everything Intel while AMD has a thread to every family of products, every generation.

It made more sense to have 1 thread for everything skylake based, but IMO now, when we multiple quite different products we should move on from this thread.
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
9,226
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IMO it is absurd to have a single thread for everything Intel while AMD has a thread to every family of products, every generation.

It made more sense to have 1 thread for everything skylake based, but IMO now, when we multiple quite different products we should move on from this thread.
See also the Atom thread, which covers "every single small core Intel product since Silvermont"...
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
7,715
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www.teamjuchems.com
IMO it is absurd to have a single thread for everything Intel while AMD has a thread to every family of products, every generation.

It made more sense to have 1 thread for everything skylake based, but IMO now, when we multiple quite different products we should move on from this thread.
So who's making the Alder Lake Hype Train thread? I mean, they are always fun and when we are invariably disappointed in some aspect of the product (Intel, AMD, nvidia, whoever) there's always another train leaving the station.
 

Hulk

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,997
436
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So what you're saying is that this thread is ridiculously broad and unfocused?
Ha! Not exactly. I'm saying this thread is broad in relations to the "Lakes" and somewhat unfocused. It meanders from focus-to-focus. If you been reading it you know as news pops up we'll discuss for a few pages, then move to new news, but as it relates to the "Lakes."

This thread is unique and fun.

It somehow achieved sentience, it's alive, and can't quite be controlled and that adds to the fun.

But, yes we should try to keep it more focused. Still, I think the possibility of poor DIY Rocket Lakes sales could likely be a result of of underwhelming performance compared to the competition, and a problem with pricing as well. All of these issues, ... performance, sales, and pricing are "Lakes" issues.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Remember the last time people used Mindfactory data in this thread and the derail that followed? Even if I openly support taking into account this type of vendor data as long as it's being used to interpret a DYI trend, I also see how toxic it is for the thread when used as bait.
You have a point, and I'll admit the presentation could have been better. It's really down to whether or not people are willing to take the bait, I guess . . .

Well, if we're going full-meta, the thread title was originally "Intel Cannonlake, Ice Lake, Tiger Lake & Sapphire rapid thread". The fact that nearly 4 years and over 10,000 posts later, Intel still hasn't finished launching the full product stack of even the second "lake" on that list and has changed their roadmap so many times that the thread was renamed, speaks volumes.
This thread is old enough that it was meant to cover everything post-Skylake since

a). those products essentially didn't exist in any commercial quantity
b). there were some nagging questions as to how or when Intel would move on to a new uarch

I don't think anybody could have predicted that things would proceed in quite this fashion. It would be a bit inappropriate to have dedicated threads to Cannonlake and Ice Lake specifically, since those threads would mostly be dead now (except for people looking to discuss Ice Lake-SP, which is still . . . not widely available, to put it lightly). Tiger Lake is currently the only product line that is active for Intel with the impending release of 8c Tiger Lake-H.

There needs to be a place for people to actively submit news and discussion related to Intel's ongoing efforts related to fabbing on advanced nodes and releasing new products. You just can't tell what exactly they're going to do or which product lines will wind up in the DiY sector, if any. It looks to me like Intel may be on the verge of abandoning DiY for awhile, especially if the sales figures from Mindfactory are indicative of what is happening to Intel at other etailers/retailors worldwide. Why should they keep seeding the channel only to get beaten up like that? Motherboard OEMs can't be happy about the situation. Sure Alder Lake-S could turn things around, but if Intel has any decisions to make about where to commit dice (OEMs, DiY) , why would they prioritize DiY? At all? Mindfactory didn't even sell 120 11900k CPUs in an entire month. The 11600k didn't show up at the 120 mark either, and the 11400 - budget darling of the Rocket Lake lineup - only managed 160 units. The 11400 is probably the best chip to come out of Rocket Lake at its price point, and at least at Mindfactory, it doesn't seem like customers are lining up to buy one. With the shortage of competitor's CPUs out there, you would think Intel would get a few "oh well, at least it's available" sales but at Mindfactory . . . not so much.

The 11700k which somewhat obviates the need for a 11900k only managed to sell 240 units. It was outsold by the 10850k and 10700k, which reinforces my previous statements that Comet Lake may be Rocket Lake's worst enemy.

IMO it is absurd to have a single thread for everything Intel while AMD has a thread to every family of products, every generation.

It made more sense to have 1 thread for everything skylake based, but IMO now, when we multiple quite different products we should move on from this thread.
Maybe? What would you discuss? It's easier to have a thread for each family of products when the product stack is coherent and at least somewhat up-to-date. To echo @coercitiv 's general sentiment that this is a DiY thread, how many of Intel's post-Skylake CPUs are relevant to DiY? Cannonlake? No. Ice Lake? No. Tiger Lake? Not yet, and probably not even with Tiger Lake-H. That leaves us with Rocket Lake and what else?
 

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