Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[Mopetar]

I thoroughly enjoyed watching Ian's entire 26 minute video, which is rare for me with a video that long. I have been thinking the same thing as Ian regarding the Golden Cove 20% IPC improvement that has been stated (I don't even remember the origin of this) and the Scheduler issues with Big/Little and how they will be handled. Namely, from an architectural level Intel has not told us, even in general terms, how it plans on improving IPC by 20% over Sunny Cove and how the heterogeneous cores will be effectively utilized by Windows?

Rumors almost never indicate where any kind of IPC uplift is coming from. Assuming that some leaker actually explained precisely where, how many of the people who report on leaks could understand it much of a level beyond something like "cache improvements" or something that doesn't provide too much additional information. Also it seems unlikely that it's a pure 20% from just one source. Maybe there's one area that's responsible for a larger part of it, but it probably picks up a small boost from a lot of small tweaks and improvements. Does any person leaking information ever break it down that much?

 

[mikk]

It will be available in smaller quantities(even less available than RTX 3080 at lounch), and very expensive no doubt.You can expect minimum 200$ for "standard green naked non RGB" 16gb DDR5.

The future is pretty gray, and a shortage of GPU and CPU hardware will continue through 2022.

ADL-S won't be available in big mass either this year. There is even a rumor that only Z690 will get DDR5 support. I don't believe Intel will or have to delay ADL-S because of DDR5. If there is a delay it's not DDR5 related.

 

[zir_blazer]

Or, the old Intel may return and blow our minds in Core2Duo fashion circa 2006. Hopeful for that but I don't think it likely.

You are forgetting perhaps the most important thing about Conroe launch. Intel allowed reviewers to benchmark it (AnandTech had a Preview about it) HALF A YEAR before its actual release. Conroe literally osborned the A64X2, as everyone put a hold on their purchases since the preview results were so damn good.

...So where is the preview of Alder Lake?

 

[DrMrLordX]

AMD has a fantastic product. However, TGL-H actually competes VERY well with Cezanne, (the 11800H beats the 5900HX in Geekbench, Cinebench, and a few other benchmarks that I'm privy to. Don't bother asking, the chip is dropping soon)

Color me skeptical. According to notebookcheck:

5900HX CBR23 MT: 13714.5
1185G7 CBR23 MT: 5718

Even if you somehow magically double the core count on the 1185G7, hold to its current boost frequencies, and fit into the target TDP of 45W, the 5900HX is still ~19% faster in that benchmark.

 

[Shivansps]

Forget DDR5, with this new damn chia crypto everyone will be looking into having +250gb ram in order to use a ramdisk for plotting since that process kills a 1TB NVME in matter of days. The high-capacity of DDR5 will make it impossible to get.

 

[eek2121]

Color me skeptical. According to notebookcheck:

5900HX CBR23 MT: 13714.5
1185G7 CBR23 MT: 5718

Even if you somehow magically double the core count on the 1185G7, hold to its current boost frequencies, and fit into the target TDP of 45W, the 5900HX is still ~19% faster in that benchmark.

You are comparing a 15W part to a 45w part…

11800H vs 5900hx in geekbench: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/6638123?baseline=7206319

 

[Hulk]

Forget DDR5, with this new damn chia crypto everyone will be looking into having +250gb ram in order to use a ramdisk for plotting since that process kills a 1TB NVME in matter of days. The high-capacity of DDR5 will make it impossible to get.

Sorry, SOT...

I was thinking the same exact thing. I can't decide if this crypto thing is good for bad for the tech industry. Short term I'm thinking bad, but once supply catches up with demand these insane prices will help finance further innovation. Kind of like the people who paid $10,000 for the first 32 inch LCD TV's so they could be first with the new flat screens.

Not really too unusual. From what I'm reading Tesla still isn't making money so those owners, and the rest of us through government subsidies, are funding their tech as well.

 

[mikk]

You are comparing a 15W part to a 45w part…

11800H vs 5900hx in geekbench: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/6638123?baseline=7206319

The score looks more like 28W to me. The double cores=double power comparison comparison isn't that good anways because the uncore of TGL-H doesn't need a doubling over TGL-U.

 

[Hitman928]

You are comparing a 15W part to a 45w part…

11800H vs 5900hx in geekbench: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/6638123?baseline=7206319

1185G7 isn't a 15W part. It can be configured as such but most configurations I've seen using it have it at 28W. At 5718 CB23 score, I can pretty much guarantee it's cTDP up configured. It wouldn't surprise me if 8C TGL beats Zen3 in Geekbench, it tends to favor Intel CPUs.

 

[João Bortolace]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387784083103649792

 

[eek2121]

1185G7 isn't a 15W part. It can be configured as such but most configurations I've seen using it have it at 28W. At 5718 CB23 score, I can pretty much guarantee it's cTDP up configured. It wouldn't surprise me if 8C TGL beats Zen3 in Geekbench, it tends to favor Intel CPUs.

That is completely false. Geekbench tends to closely mirror spec. The only reason for variance in scores is due to system misconfiguration.

 

[Hitman928]

That is completely false. Geekbench tends to closely mirror spec. The only reason for variance in scores is due to system misconfiguration.

I don't understand what part of my post you are saying is false, that the 1185G7 isn't a 15W part or that GB tends to favor Intel CPUs?

 

[Hougy]

I somewhat agree with him but it's more of a lesser evil thing and the market is different now compared to skylake launch. Haswell-E started off the consumer ddr4 market with it's own foibles but the enthusiast segment will more easily adopt a newer memory standard. Although I see mob manufacturers just releasing a variety of boards, ddr4 at the lower budget, rgb extreme ddr5 boards and some combos.
This is the year for everything being delayed though so the ddr5 ramp might be late and cause additional problems, especially as we have so little information on epyc4 and sapphire rapids and their launch windows.

Regarding his "20% IPC" statement, isn't that only people misreporting intel's own "20% more single thread performance" they haven't specified ipc themselves yet.

Do you have a source for Intel claiming 20% more single threaded performance?

 

[jpiniero]

Do you have a source for Intel claiming 20% more single threaded performance?

There's this leaked Intel slide, but it doesn't say what it is comparing it to.

Exclusive: Intel 12th Gen Core "Alder Lake-S" platform detailed - VideoCardz.com

Intel Alder Lake up to 20% single-thread performance uplift We have received the first details on Alder Lake-S, the upcoming desktop and mobile platform from Intel. The slides confirm the most important aspects of the new architecture, including desktop and mobile platforms. First and foremost...

videocardz.com

 

[majord]

" Up to "

Wonder what the average is

 

[Saylick]

The 20% may not all come from IPC either. Given the refined process, I suspect there's a few hundred MHz of clock gain as part of that ST perf gain, but it does come down to what previous part they are making the comparison with.

 

[tomatosummit]

Sorry, I forgot that slide was a leak and was "up to"
Still the has all the usual caveats such as only in user bench, using a new standard 28wtdp against last generations 15wtdp and when rolling down hill.

Does any one have the last dell leak of workstation platforms. Specifically looking for if it says the 1socket icelake only supports up to 38 cores as I feel that's very telling to the availability of the 40 core die or if it's just out of date.

 

[Tarkin77]

" Up to "

Wonder what the average is

Remember RKL?

My guess: 8-12%

 

[DrMrLordX]

You are comparing a 15W part to a 45w part…

As others have echoed, The 1185G7 is a 28W part in most configurations. That score is undoubtedly a 28W score. Of course I am ignoring power draw in excess of TDP (for refernce, the 5900HX can violate its own 45W TDP up to 54W assuming cooling permits it; honestly I don't know how far TGL-U can go).

11800H vs 5900hx in geekbench: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/compare/6638123?baseline=7206319

That MT score for the 11800H seems low. 1185G7 can score in the 5500-5600 range:

1185G7 - Geekbench 5 CPU Search - Geekbench Browser

Is the 11800H maintaining a boost lower than 4.3 GHz?

The double cores=double power comparison comparison isn't that good anways because the uncore of TGL-H doesn't need a doubling over TGL-U.

Uncore power draw on Intel mobile parts should be very, very low.

 

[moinmoin]

A TGL-U chip will burst super high, but quickly drop once TDP is met. There is no issue with a chip consuming even 200W of power as long as the 15W TDP is met

Oh the poor battery 😭

Uncore power draw on Intel mobile parts should be very, very low.

To be fair you have to add the PCH.

 

[mikk]

The 20% may not all come from IPC either. Given the refined process, I suspect there's a few hundred MHz of clock gain as part of that ST perf gain, but it does come down to what previous part they are making the comparison with.

There are rumors about a 25% IPC increase, clock speeds may come down a bit.

 

[Asterox]

You are forgetting perhaps the most important thing about Conroe launch. Intel allowed reviewers to benchmark it (AnandTech had a Preview about it) HALF A YEAR before its actual release. Conroe literally osborned the A64X2, as everyone put a hold on their purchases since the preview results were so damn good.

...So where is the preview of Alder Lake?

You could put a link, "if nothing else just as interesting information from the past".This forum is probably watched/followed by a lot of people born in 2006.

Spring IDF 2006 Conroe Preview: Intel Regains the Performance Crown

www.anandtech.com

Alder Lake preview, is it coming soon? Hm no, as Ian said there is a lot of grey stuff+to put it mildly Windows is a mousetrap.There is big diference from Dual Core Conroe design vs big little on Desktop in 2021.

Given all the information so far, Alder Lake it’s nothing revolutionary or worth a big hype.

 

[andermans]

Rumors almost never indicate where any kind of IPC uplift is coming from. Assuming that some leaker actually explained precisely where, how many of the people who report on leaks could understand it much of a level beyond something like "cache improvements" or something that doesn't provide too much additional information. Also it seems unlikely that it's a pure 20% from just one source. Maybe there's one area that's responsible for a larger part of it, but it probably picks up a small boost from a lot of small tweaks and improvements. Does any person leaking information ever break it down that much?

I believe a big part of it is that the 20% IPC increase (or whatever the claim exactly is) ends up in things like marketing materials for OEMs and partners, resulting in a far larger group of potential leakers, while the specifics of how to get there are mostly not useful for these partners.

 

[dmens]

Remember RKL?

My guess: 8-12%

Haha seriously. The rumor mill and leak astrologists were just embarrassed by Rocketlake reality but they did not skip a beat doing the same ridiculous thing on Alderlake. SMH.

 

[Mopetar]

Haha seriously. The rumor mill and leak astrologists were just embarrassed by Rocketlake reality but they did not skip a beat doing the same ridiculous thing on Alderlake. SMH.

That's every rumor mill and product hype train in the history of the universe. Occasionally they manage to get one right, but they have no shame about being wrong, even if by a massive amount.

For some I suspect there's little joy even if they do manage to get it right, because it's the potential and excitement about what could be that drives people to participate and wrong or right as soon as a product launches, there's always a new hype train for the next product that's just about to depart the station.