I'm sick of the Government

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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Is this a serious question? The U.S. gov't has to generate revenue from Americans that use the services that they provide; safe food supply, water supply, roads, infrastructure, etc. The gov't cannot allow U.S. citizens to simply stop paying taxes, otherwise we'd have a massive problem with funding these essential human needs.


So absolutely nothing the U.S. government does warrants a tax revolt of any kind? You do realize the U.S. government was founded on a tax revolt initially, correct?

And you do realize that the British empire in the late 18th century and colonial America has absolutely no relevance in this discussion about the need to pay taxes for public services, correct? The British provided no services to the colonies then, while the U.S. gov't currently provides services in exponentially higher quantity. There is no way you can get around this reality; you use gov't services everyday unless you live in a log cabin in the middle of nowhere and hunt for your food and boil your water.

So how do I opt out of these services as well as paying for them?

If the services are provided by the Federal government, then you need to emigrate.

Be aware that most countries have taxes, and the standard of living may also not be as healthy.

 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
By moving out of the country. Fire services, police, etc don't have time to ask you if you've opted in to the program or not when you're unconscious on the floor of your burning house.

Ohio has private fire departments that charge individual apartment building owners and residents. They even put out fires of non-paying individuals.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Heh I didnt participate in this discussion but I see the usual antics of the anti-tax crowd on the last page alone.

I am not what you call terribly happy about big govt and prefer a low tax rate. But there are essential services that the private sectory simply cant or wont provide.

Emergency services is one of them.
Roads
Ports
Airports

I understand how people want to privatize roads but there is no real competition in that market. How would that work anyways? Firm A builds a road and charges x toll. Firm B builds a parallel road next to it and charges y toll? Then to make it a free market a startup firm builds a third road and charges z toll.

That isnt how it works. The best you can come up with is a regulate monopoly ala our utility system. The govt still dictates where to go and then tells us who will be maintaining the road.

I wouldnt even want to get into private police forces, fire agencies, and emergency services.

And while I didnt even read beyond the last page. I am sure somebody brought up how income tax is illegal. It isnt, and that argument died about 90 years ago.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,952
8,007
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Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Originally posted by: Dissipate
So how do I opt out of these services as well as paying for them?

If the services are provided by the Federal government, then you need to emigrate.

Be aware that most countries have taxes, and the standard of living may also not be as healthy.

That is flight, he could also fight.

We have the god given right to secure our liberties as we see fit, as spelled out in the declaration of independence. Dissipate, get your state to follow secession and you will not stand alone.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
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Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

If the services are provided by the Federal government, then you need to emigrate.

Be aware that most countries have taxes, and the standard of living may also not be as healthy.

I understand that is the situation I am in, I just haven't really heard any valid justifications for it. The mob may force me to pay protection money to live in its neighborhood, but that says nothing about whether or not they ought to or if I ought to pay up.

The economic justification for the government is very weak. That's why political philosophers have tried to justify the state by other philosophical means for thousands of years.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
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Originally posted by: glugglug
I would be much happier without the "services" of the FDA. Plenty of dangerous sh!t makes its way into our grocery stores & pharmacies as long as the FDA gets their kickbacks. Because antibiotics & other stuff that probably should be over-the-counter (and is OTC in other countries) is prescription only at best here, it is often cheaper to order it through the mail from Canada than to pay my 10% insurance co-pay to get it locally.

You really don't understand how the FDA works, do you?

Granted, we need to reform the way the FDA receives money, but why would we throw out an organization that has kept thousands of dangerous drugs off our shelves rather than simply changing a few rules which will help it work independently again?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: eskimospy
By moving out of the country. Fire services, police, etc don't have time to ask you if you've opted in to the program or not when you're unconscious on the floor of your burning house.

Ohio has private fire departments that charge individual apartment building owners and residents. They even put out fires of non-paying individuals.

What's your point? Are you seriously trying to argue that you don't use public services by virtue of living in the US? Furthermore it seems that people here are trying to make the argument that because they don't like how things are structured here everyone else should have to change to accomodate them.

Finally Jaskalas, good luck with your secession plan. If someone tries to secede they will absolutely be all by themselves and alone. Tell me how that works out.

EDIT: Oh and Dissipate, the economic justification for government isn't weak at all. That's flat out absurd. I don't remember if you were the one I had a long discussion about this with a while ago, but the fact that your neighbor hasn't come over and killed you for your TV is a very nice economic argument for government.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
States cant secede unless through revolution or being granted the right to leave by the other states. Texas vs White settled this in 1868 unless the supreme court has ruled on it since?
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: necine
I am considering not paying my taxes as a form of civil disobedience. This bailout is the straw... I don't support the bailout, iraq war, infringement on my civil liberties. I think I'm done. Thoughts?

Worked out well for this guy.

If you don't want to pay taxes in America, then move somewhere else and you won't have to. When you accept the services of the government you have implicitly agreed to taxation for it, even for things you don't support.


This.


Originally posted by: Young Grasshopper
Have a nice time in jail.

And this.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
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Originally posted by: eskimospy

What's your point? Are you seriously trying to argue that you don't use public services by virtue of living in the US? Furthermore it seems that people here are trying to make the argument that because they don't like how things are structured here everyone else should have to change to accomodate them.

I use roads, and water, maybe fire and police protection if I am having a really bad day, that's about it.

But as it was pointed out before I have absolutely no choice in changing this situation. If I could hire a different police department I would, if I could sign up with a different road operator I would.

How can I change these services? I can't. Your argument is akin to me taking away your keys, claiming you can't drive and then handing them to someone else. Then when the other guy is driving you around and even driving you places you don't want to go, I claim that you have to keep paying him because you are taking advantage of his services.

This absurd logic appears only to apply to government.

 
Dec 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: eskimospy

What's your point? Are you seriously trying to argue that you don't use public services by virtue of living in the US? Furthermore it seems that people here are trying to make the argument that because they don't like how things are structured here everyone else should have to change to accomodate them.

I use roads, and water, maybe fire and police protection if I am having a really bad day, that's about it.

But as it was pointed out before I have absolutely no choice in changing this situation. If I could hire a different police department I would, if I could sign up with a different road operator I would.

How can I change these services? I can't. Your argument is akin to me taking away your keys, claiming you can't drive and then handing them to someone else. Then when the other guy is driving you around and even driving you places you don't want to go, I claim that you have to keep paying him because you are taking advantage of his services.

This absurd logic appears only to apply to government.

Why would you want to have the ability to hire private police or fire forces? Or maybe the ability to drive on only roads owned by company A and not company B? What would you do if company C owned the road in front of your home? You wouldn't exactly have a choice in whether or not to pay to use it. The 'free market' is not the answer to everything. It cannot efficiently handle certain services, such as general infrastructure, police/fire, national defense, etc.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
You know, there are a number of nations in the world in which you pay no taxes and receive no services. If you're serious about this and not just being an Internet prima donna who would actually live in comfort in America than provide for yourself as you say you wish to do...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: eskimospy

What's your point? Are you seriously trying to argue that you don't use public services by virtue of living in the US? Furthermore it seems that people here are trying to make the argument that because they don't like how things are structured here everyone else should have to change to accomodate them.

I use roads, and water, maybe fire and police protection if I am having a really bad day, that's about it.

But as it was pointed out before I have absolutely no choice in changing this situation. If I could hire a different police department I would, if I could sign up with a different road operator I would.

How can I change these services? I can't. Your argument is akin to me taking away your keys, claiming you can't drive and then handing them to someone else. Then when the other guy is driving you around and even driving you places you don't want to go, I claim that you have to keep paying him because you are taking advantage of his services.

This absurd logic appears only to apply to government.

What do you mean hire a different police department? Under what standard would they enforce laws? Your standard? If you didn't like what they did and didn't want to pay them, would they be unable to arrest you? What you're suggesting would just lead to private armies, etc. Absolutely ridiculous.

Someone else already covered why it's a good thing for the roads to be socialized. Nobody wants two or three competing roads going to the same place, and there would be a revolt if someone owned the street in front of your house, so just to leave your house you had to pay someone. As for how you can change these services, that's what we have a democracy for. Instead of complaining about them, do something about it. If you can't get enough people to sign onto it, then that means nobody wants what you're selling.

It sounds to me like you think government has gone too far and controls too much. That's a reasonable argument. This blanket argument against government in general is just bizarre though. If you think you have a credible alternative I'd love to hear it. (I imagine you do have an alternative, I'm just willing to bet that it's based on some utopian ideals that would never work in reality)
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
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Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Why would you want to have the ability to hire private police or fire forces?

Because I do not prefer to be under a police force that disarms me.

Or maybe the ability to drive on only roads owned by company A and not company B?

Because I prefer not to sit in traffic jams all day long.


What would you do if company C owned the road in front of your home? You wouldn't exactly have a choice in whether or not to pay to use it. The 'free market' is not the answer to everything. It cannot efficiently handle certain services, such as general infrastructure, police/fire, national defense, etc.

The road in front of my home would probably be bundled into a package when I purchased the home. So I would probably have direct control over that.


I wasn't aware that multi-trillion dollar wars were defense or efficient. But hey, call me crazy.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Why would you want to have the ability to hire private police or fire forces?

Because I do not prefer to be under a police force that disarms me.

That doesn't make sense. The police enforce the laws agreed upon by society. What you're suggesting is a private army so you can do whatever the hell you want.

Or maybe the ability to drive on only roads owned by company A and not company B?
Because I prefer not to sit in traffic jams all day long.

Multiple roads to the same place won't solve anything. Where the hell would we put all these new expressways anyway? Don't want to sit in traffic, push for improved mass transit, shifted work schedules (so everyone isn't driving in at the same time), tele-communting, and carpooling.

What would you do if company C owned the road in front of your home? You wouldn't exactly have a choice in whether or not to pay to use it. The 'free market' is not the answer to everything. It cannot efficiently handle certain services, such as general infrastructure, police/fire, national defense, etc.
The road in front of my home would probably be bundled into a package when I purchased the home. So I would probably have direct control over that.

Probably have it bundled? That's quite an assumption. What happens when you don't like the service (or lack of) that the company provides? Do you hire another company to build a road away from your house so there is competition for the first one to do better?

I wasn't aware that multi-trillion dollar wars were defense or efficient. But hey, call me crazy.

It's not all about efficiency, but that's what the free-market people are always bitching about. Certain things don't work with the free market. And plus, government provides a necessary function - being the arbiter between people when contractual disputes arise and provides a baseline of what is and is not acceptable under those contractual laws.

You should try picking up a book or two to educate yourself on the philosophies behind government and economics. Maybe a little Smith or Durkheim to start off?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Why would you want to have the ability to hire private police or fire forces?

Because I do not prefer to be under a police force that disarms me.

Absolutely ridiculous. Who's police force would you be under? Your own? Is your answer for everyone to make a private army?
 
Dec 10, 2005
25,023
8,298
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Why would you want to have the ability to hire private police or fire forces?

Because I do not prefer to be under a police force that disarms me.

Absolutely ridiculous. Who's police force would you be under? Your own? Is your answer for everyone to make a private army?

It would be fun, kind of like the State of Nature that people like Hobbes and Locke spoke about.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Why would you want to have the ability to hire private police or fire forces?

Because I do not prefer to be under a police force that disarms me.

Absolutely ridiculous. Who's police force would you be under? Your own? Is your answer for everyone to make a private army?

Bush has a private army provided to him, why can't I have one?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Why would you want to have the ability to hire private police or fire forces?

Because I do not prefer to be under a police force that disarms me.

Absolutely ridiculous. Who's police force would you be under? Your own? Is your answer for everyone to make a private army?

It would be fun, kind of like the State of Nature that people like Hobbes and Locke spoke about.

Well who's state of nature? One was a lot more fun than the other.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: Brainonska511

Why would you want to have the ability to hire private police or fire forces?

Because I do not prefer to be under a police force that disarms me.

Absolutely ridiculous. Who's police force would you be under? Your own? Is your answer for everyone to make a private army?

Bush has a private army provided to him, why can't I have one?

Because Bush doesn't have a private army provided to him. You're avoiding the question.

 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Why would you want to have the ability to hire private police or fire forces?

Because I do not prefer to be under a police force that disarms me.

That doesn't make sense. The police enforce the laws agreed upon by society. What you're suggesting is a private army so you can do whatever the hell you want.

Or maybe the ability to drive on only roads owned by company A and not company B?
Because I prefer not to sit in traffic jams all day long.

Multiple roads to the same place won't solve anything. Where the hell would we put all these new expressways anyway? Don't want to sit in traffic, push for improved mass transit, shifted work schedules (so everyone isn't driving in at the same time), tele-communting, and carpooling.

What would you do if company C owned the road in front of your home? You wouldn't exactly have a choice in whether or not to pay to use it. The 'free market' is not the answer to everything. It cannot efficiently handle certain services, such as general infrastructure, police/fire, national defense, etc.
The road in front of my home would probably be bundled into a package when I purchased the home. So I would probably have direct control over that.

Probably have it bundled? That's quite an assumption. What happens when you don't like the service (or lack of) that the company provides? Do you hire another company to build a road away from your house so there is competition for the first one to do better?

I wasn't aware that multi-trillion dollar wars were defense or efficient. But hey, call me crazy.

It's not all about efficiency, but that's what the free-market people are always bitching about. Certain things don't work with the free market. And plus, government provides a necessary function - being the arbiter between people when contractual disputes arise and provides a baseline of what is and is not acceptable under those contractual laws.

You should try picking up a book or two to educate yourself on the philosophies behind government and economics. Maybe a little Smith or Durkheim to start off?

I have. I grew up on that stuff. I have taken courses in economics, political science and political philosophy. Additionally, I grew up in a right wing Christian conservative family. Instead of trusting all the 'experts' I looked at my own life and realized that the system I live under really sucks, in spite of all the theory saying that it is great. Incentives have been perverted and people are now beyond delusional. I'm a political skeptic, and have taken nothing for granted, including the 'sage' advice of my parents.

In the interest of time I offer you two free book downloads which has more information:

Everyday Anarchy

Practical Anarchy
 

brandonb

Diamond Member
Oct 17, 2006
3,731
2
0
I want to do the same thing.

If everybody does it they can't jail us all. In fact, they'd have no money to run the prisons.

But unfortunately if the government lost its money, people would probably not be able to watch the Sunday football game, so they won't be on board with the idea. People want the government to wipe their ass for them.