Illegal immigration a disaster for the United States.

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exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: utfrodo54
Originally posted by: exdeath
I like that. I would like Mexico to always be there and always be the same when I go there, because, well, it's Mexico.

I would like the same for my country as well. As it stands, unlike Mexico's policy, it's too easy for any faction to come over here and exploit our immigration policies to change the definition of America to suit their own ends. That we share a land border with Mexico that allows such large numbers of immigrants makes the problem unique to Central and South American immigration unlike any other group.

See now we are getting somewhere. You are entitled to this vision, just as anyone is entitled to give one.

Just remember that there are just as many out there that want control/order of the influx of people, but are open to allowing OUR great resources to benefit others born outside of an imaginary line because people aren't given a choice of what nationality vagina to come out of, "bad culture" and all are welcomed.

Yes they are welcome to come here to America, become Americans, and have the same chances for opportunity as everyone else in America. But they are not entitled anything, and they are not welcome to come here and meddle in our politics or laws and turn my country into their country or ignore our established ways (i.e.: capitalism instead of socialism, etc.)

We have our ways. Mexico has their ways. Pick which place is more agreeable to you and don't meddle.

are open to allowing OUR great resources to benefit others

This line of yours highlights much of my concern... it concerns me dearly that you made it a point to emphasize OUR... do you mean your resources or mine or just those like you willing to help others? Are you assuming that my resources are collectively part of yours and free to be dispensed as you see fit? And if I don't feel the same are you going to use force to take them away from me and give them to someone else that you feel deserves them more?

That is not the American way of being free to pursue your own life liberty and happiness without others interfering by taking them from you when you achieve them. This is EXACTLY the kind of political and socioeconomic manipulation that fuels my concerns.

Now if you mean they are free to come here, earn wages in exchange for labor, exchange wages for goods and services, with anyone who voluntarily participates in those interactions, then I agree 100%.

I don't care if it that is an Escalade with 26" gold rims as long as I'm not subsidizing something out of my pocket to allow it to happen. If you break laws, disrespect others, damage my property, expect to compensate those you inconvenienced for it, and if you can't afford food or diapers because you spent all your money on a big screen TV, thats not my problem either; I shouldn't have to give up the resources I earned via my own labor in order to ease the burden for someone who made a poor decision that may be hard and uncomfortable to recover from.

In all honesty, I don't even care if people could drink and drive if they had the self restraint to know their own limits instead of everyone being held to some arbitrary blood alcohol level defined by the government. But at least if a US citizen rear ends me and runs away, I have legal recourse. Illegals are pretty much immune to prosecution, they just get deported to come back another day. Same goes for smoking and everything else, and I don't drink or smoke. But if I did I would have the common decency to know that I might be engaging in acts that potentially affect other people against their will (ie: causing smoke, etc) without there having to be a law for it.

You are free to earn income and do what you please with it, but do not involve people that do not wish to be involved and do not meddle with our politics to otherwise force them.

And really that is the fundamental problem I have with illegal immigration. Just about everything I debate here comes down to 'socialism vs capitalism' or 'left vs right' because really the only thing I vehemently fight for is people being free to do what they chose as long as it doesn't take from others against their will.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,144
12,461
136
It's not too often I agree with Michelle Malkin on ANYTHING, but her column that was in this morning's paper is one of those places we DO agree:

http://www.creators.com/opinion/michelle-malkin.html

A Lesson in Open-Borders Math
The New York Times is always ready and willing to serve as lead public relations staffers for the open-borders movement. On May Day, the day of mass illegal alien protests across the country, the paper saw fit to print a front-page sob story decrying rising illegal alien deportations.

"Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials, facing intense political pressure to toughen enforcement [read: do their jobs], removed 221,664 illegal immigrants from the country over the last year," the Times reported ominously. That's "an increase of more than 37,000 ? about 20 percent ? over the year before, according to the agency's tally."

221,664. Big number. It certainly sounds like we're getting serious about immigration enforcement, if you believe what the Times tells you.

But you know better than that. It's what the paper didn't tell you on the day of the pro-amnesty demonstrations that provides the truly alarming news. Far from a nation that takes its immigration laws seriously, we remain in a shoddy, dangerous state of immigration non-enforcement nearly six years after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks ? chaos that will only worsen if Congress and the White House join hands on a "comprehensive" illegal alien amnesty plan.

In March, the Homeland Security Department's inspector general disclosed that the feds have lost track of 623,292 fugitive illegal aliens. These "absconders" were apprehended by immigration officers, placed in the immigration court system, ordered out of the country and released. Never to be seen again.

221,664 "removed" illegal aliens vs. 623,292 released illegal alien fugitives.

In other words: There are nearly three times as many officially designated illegal alien fugitives freed by the feds as there are illegal aliens who have been removed over the last year.

This inconvenient truth was glossed over by the Times.

So was this: Despite more than $204 million earmarked since 2003 for 52 special fugitive operations teams across the country, the "backlog of fugitive alien cases has increased each fiscal year since the [fugitive apprehension] program was established in February 2002."

While pro-amnesty marchers stressed this week that they are "law-abiding" (except for those pesky immigration rules), more and more of the illegal aliens caught by immigration authorities and ordered to appear for deportation hearings are skipping out.
The DHS inspector general's office explains that thousands of illegal aliens ignore orders to appear at their immigration hearings. Of the 460,000-plus immigration judge decisions and administrative closures issued by the Executive Office of Immigration and Review (EOIR) between 2001-2004, 39 percent (181,807) were issued to illegal aliens who had been released but later failed to appear at their respective immigration hearings.

And the total number of aliens failing to appear is increasing. In fact, according to DHS's Detention and Removal Office, 85 percent of the illegal aliens released that have been issued final orders of removal will abscond. That goes not just for illegal aliens from Mexico, but for illegal aliens from terror-friendly and terror-sponsoring nations. Homeland security? What homeland security?

Compounding the danger: The federal Detention and Removal Office estimates that in 2007, "there will be 605,000 foreign-born individuals admitted to state correctional facilities and local jails during the year for committing crimes in the U.S. Of this number, DRO estimates half (302,500) will be removable aliens. Currently, most of these incarcerated aliens are being released into the U.S. at the conclusion of their respective sentences due to the lack of DRO resources." That's upwards of 300,000 convicted criminal aliens who will walk out of their cells and onto the streets. Never to be seen again.

Just doing the context-setting and number-crunching the rest of the mainstream media won't do. Now, back to your regularly scheduled, emotion-driven, one-sided coverage of America the Oppressor. Over to you, New York Times.
 

GeezerMan

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2005
2,145
26
91
Perhaps one should come to our neighborhood and see the cultural changes for themselves. Oh, I should mention my Hispanic neighbors 3 doors down don't like it either, they say " I don't want this to be Mexico". OOppps, there goes the racist charge against them.
I wouldn't like it if Germans came here and changed the culture either. I have a friend who works at a apartment complex. She has a scenario that plays out once a month or so: They want a Spanish speaking person in the office at all times. She says this is America, learn the language, they call her a racist, she says tell that to my Mexican husband. Silence.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
Perhaps one should come to our neighborhood and see the cultural changes for themselves. Oh, I should mention my Hispanic neighbors 3 doors down don't like it either, they say " I don't want this to be Mexico". OOppps, there goes the racist charge against them.
I wouldn't like it if Germans came here and changed the culture either. I have a friend who works at a apartment complex. She has a scenario that plays out once a month or so: They want a Spanish speaking person in the office at all times. She says this is America, learn the language, they call her a racist, she says tell that to my Mexican husband. Silence.

:thumbsup:

Yay, people are 'getting' it.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Legal Immigration good. Illegal immigration bad.
Legal immigrant good. Illegal immigrant bad.

We need to stop the bad ones.

now.

It's as simple as that.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,144
12,461
136
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Legal Immigration good. Illegal immigration bad.
Legal immigrant good. Illegal immigrant bad.

We need to stop the bad ones.

now.

It's as simple as that.

wow...Palehorse74 and I are actually in agreement...for a change...;)
 

GeezerMan

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2005
2,145
26
91
We have a school nearby, and in the afternoon the parents wait for their kids. Been going on for 40 years. Things have changed recently. We now often have loud Mariachi music. Push cart ice cream vendors blocking the streets. The kids, and parents actually lay in and play in our yards. Trampling expensive plants.
I counted 6 kids and 3 parents in the neighbor's yard treating it like a public park.
Our neighbor asked very politely if they would please move off of the yard. I witnessed what she said, and it was very politely said.Blank stares. Spanish spoken to them. 3 nights later, smashed car window, large can of refried beans thrown in the driver's side window. I think that was a message.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
We have a school nearby, and in the afternoon the parents wait for their kids. Been going on for 40 years. Things have changed recently. We now often have loud Mariachi music. Push cart ice cream vendors blocking the streets. The kids, and parents actually lay in and play in our yards. Trampling expensive plants.
I counted 6 kids and 3 parents in the neighbor's yard treating it like a public park.
Our neighbor asked very politely if they would please move off of the yard. I witnessed what she said, and it was very politely said.Blank stares. Spanish spoken to them. 3 nights later, smashed car window, large can of refried beans thrown in the driver's side window. I think that was a message.

Yup, a blatant lack of respect for others and their property, a trait associated with that culture.

Maybe they just flat or lack respect? Or maybe there is a genuine reason for it, such as in Mexico there is more of a sense of community and less of a sense of private property and ownership and they aren't use to the stingy gringos up here?

I don't care what it is, they better GET used to it if they want to be here, because I am under no obligation to give them immunity and special privileges just because they are not from here. That is how it works here, and I don't like seeing bricks in my windshield or Bud Light cans and trash tossed over the fence into my yard because they don't agree and think that I am the one who has the problem.

They can agree or disagree all they want, but in America, we have a concept of private property and respect for others and that property. Deal with it or leave.

And playing or walking through my rock yard wouldn't even bother me except for 8 and 10 year old unsupervised kids plowing through my yard on their loud gas powered dirt bikes, spinning out in my yard, creating ruts in the underlying dirt, while spraying rock everywhere for me to clean up when I get home. Or the fact that they could sue me, and actually win, if they hurt themselves playing on my front yard. ****** ridiculous.

Grrr I can't count the times one of them pull a left turn in front of me while my light is green, see me coming, look me in the eye with that same blank stare you described, and they just keep going without making any effort to speed up like 'oh sh1t oops' or show that they made a mistake because I am just supposed to stop for THEM. And as I'm locking up my brakes and skidding they just look me with the same blank reptilian stare like I'm the idiot while they continue their careful leisurely 15 mph stroll through the busy intersection, WITH A TRAILER on the back of their truck, while the person behind me is now in danger of hitting me, etc. And it's MY fault? Good god I am so sick of it. And it is ALWAYS a Mexican doing things like that. I make it a point to look every single time, and it never fails. If it does happen to be a red neck for a change, I still utter the same 'damn mexican' phrase that is all too familiar on Tucson's roads, because it is a reflection of mentality and behavior. But I get called a racist and a bigot if I say anything about it. Fvck that once and for all.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

From what I understand yes, and rightfully so. And this, and my post above yours, is why:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed93.html

When are we going to wake up and do the same thing for the same reasons?

Not really. The same exaggerations and lies I was talking about earlier. Here are the real facts:

Mexico's General Law of Population sets out the rights and obligations of foreigners, as well as the different statuses associated with foreign immigration.

In general, foreign nationals are welcome to visit Mexico for a defined period of time to take part in non-remunerative activities (e.g. a holiday), and requirements for remunerative visits or longer stays (beyond 180 days) require special permits from the Mexican Consulate.

There are two kinds of permit: Non-Immigrant and Immigrant:

Non Immigrant Permits are for people who intend to visit Mexico for a specific purpose and then depart.
Immigrant Permits are for people who wish to live in Mexico, short or long term.
You do not have to surrender your natural Citizenship to be granted full resident status in Mexico. Full resident status entitles you to all rights and benefits of a Mexican National (live, work, claim state benefits and to pay taxes) but you cannot vote in Mexican elections. These permits may also prohibit work in specific industries. These are limited, and relate to bar and waiter/waitress work.

Immigrant Permits are issued to foreign nationals who have the intention of gaining permanent residency in Mexico. Under immigrant schemes, you are permitted to reside in the country, provided that you fulfil certain criteria (as specified by the type of permit) for a period of up to one year.

The permit must be renewed annually for a further four years in order for you to be able to apply for full residency status. If you wish to remain in Mexico as a "resident alien" after five years, you must apply for full residency status (there is a specific procedure to follow), and have this accepted. Once your application has been accepted and your "FM2" has been issued (see below) you are entitled to full rights and responsibilities as any other Mexican Citizen, with the exception of the right to vote.

(So, basically, exactly how it is in the US for a Naturalized Resident).

Also, I'm not sure where the 40,000 times daily wage came into play. It is 400 times the daily wage in a month. The daily wage is less than 50 dollars, so it works out to about 2000 dollars per month. I don't think 24,000 a year is a stupid or horrible requirement.

More:

Acquiring Mexican Citizenship is an involved process, and it is not easy to do. As a minimum, you must have been living in Mexico for 5 years (2 years under special circumstances) and have resident status. Marriage to a Mexican national may allow Citizenship without the residency requirement. For matters concerning the acquisition of Mexican Citizenship, seek professional advice and contact your local Mexican Consulate

Again, just like the US. Getting Citizenship here is a not an easy process at all.
 

utfrodo54

Member
Mar 14, 2007
48
0
61
Originally posted by: exdeath
are open to allowing OUR great resources to benefit others

This line of yours highlights much of my concern... it concerns me dearly that you made it a point to emphasize OUR... do you mean your resources or mine or just those like you willing to help others? Are you assuming that my resources are collectively part of yours and free to be dispensed as you see fit? And if I don't feel the same are you going to use force to take them away from me and give them to someone else that you feel deserves them more?

That is a lot to get out of one little line and one word capitalized. I can just turn around and ask..."Are YOU assuming that my resources (and decision for that matter) are collectively part of yours and free to be dispensed as you see fit?" ...."are you going to use force to take them away from me and give them to someone else that you feel deserves them more [than me because I want to see America continue to what i think is grow richer in its people]?

Now if you mean they are free to come here, earn wages in exchange for labor, exchange wages for goods and services, with anyone who voluntarily participates in those interactions, then I agree 100%.

I thought it would be obvious that I meant this instead. But even these good intention reasons still require them to come illegally, cuz money might run out by then end of the week and even the best connections and lawyers is not going to push your papers faster than that. And yes, they will yell to Ramon and get excited when they can buy a palleta. Mijo no corras en las flores.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

From what I understand yes, and rightfully so. And this, and my post above yours, is why:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed93.html

When are we going to wake up and do the same thing for the same reasons?

Not really. The same exaggerations and lies I was talking about earlier. Here are the real facts:

Mexico's General Law of Population sets out the rights and obligations of foreigners, as well as the different statuses associated with foreign immigration.

In general, foreign nationals are welcome to visit Mexico for a defined period of time to take part in non-remunerative activities (e.g. a holiday), and requirements for remunerative visits or longer stays (beyond 180 days) require special permits from the Mexican Consulate.

There are two kinds of permit: Non-Immigrant and Immigrant:

Non Immigrant Permits are for people who intend to visit Mexico for a specific purpose and then depart.
Immigrant Permits are for people who wish to live in Mexico, short or long term.
You do not have to surrender your natural Citizenship to be granted full resident status in Mexico. Full resident status entitles you to all rights and benefits of a Mexican National (live, work, claim state benefits and to pay taxes) but you cannot vote in Mexican elections. These permits may also prohibit work in specific industries. These are limited, and relate to bar and waiter/waitress work.

Immigrant Permits are issued to foreign nationals who have the intention of gaining permanent residency in Mexico. Under immigrant schemes, you are permitted to reside in the country, provided that you fulfil certain criteria (as specified by the type of permit) for a period of up to one year.

The permit must be renewed annually for a further four years in order for you to be able to apply for full residency status. If you wish to remain in Mexico as a "resident alien" after five years, you must apply for full residency status (there is a specific procedure to follow), and have this accepted. Once your application has been accepted and your "FM2" has been issued (see below) you are entitled to full rights and responsibilities as any other Mexican Citizen, with the exception of the right to vote.

(So, basically, exactly how it is in the US for a Naturalized Resident).

Also, I'm not sure where the 40,000 times daily wage came into play. It is 400 times the daily wage in a month. The daily wage is less than 50 dollars, so it works out to about 2000 dollars per month. I don't think 24,000 a year is a stupid or horrible requirement.

More:

Acquiring Mexican Citizenship is an involved process, and it is not easy to do. As a minimum, you must have been living in Mexico for 5 years (2 years under special circumstances) and have resident status. Marriage to a Mexican national may allow Citizenship without the residency requirement. For matters concerning the acquisition of Mexican Citizenship, seek professional advice and contact your local Mexican Consulate

Again, just like the US. Getting Citizenship here is a not an easy process at all.

So basically you can become a Mexican citizen but you cannot do anything that would make Mexico anything other than Mexico or attempt to changed things if you don't like it.

You described the requirements and process of obtaining residency in Mexico, and nothing more. With the exception of the investment requirement (#5), your post does not even address the enumerated items or show that they are incorrect or exaggerated. If they are incorrect I would like to know, because I think it's a damn good policy.

You did say that immigrants can claim public services (#4), but only on the same terms as Mexican citizens and only after they have put in five years to attain full resident status.

So 2 items of the 8 received a slight clarification, that doesn't make it all lies and exaggeration. How about the rest? Like facing jail for being there illegally (#8), foreigners not being allowed to vote even with full residency status (#2, #3), foreigners not being allowed to protest or wave flags other than the Mexican flag (#7), or having special privileges in their foreign language (#1), etc.
 

GeezerMan

Platinum Member
Jan 28, 2005
2,145
26
91

Link

For Mexico, also a porous southern border


"Few politicians have made public speeches about such matters. But Deputy Foreign Minister Gerónimo Gutiérrez recently acknowledged that Mexico's immigration laws were "tougher than those being contemplated by the United States," where the authorities caught 1.5 million people illegally crossing the Mexican border last year.

In an interview, Gutiérrez said Mexico needed to "review its laws in order to have more legitimacy when we present our points of view to the United States."

 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: utfrodo54
Originally posted by: exdeath
are open to allowing OUR great resources to benefit others

This line of yours highlights much of my concern... it concerns me dearly that you made it a point to emphasize OUR... do you mean your resources or mine or just those like you willing to help others? Are you assuming that my resources are collectively part of yours and free to be dispensed as you see fit? And if I don't feel the same are you going to use force to take them away from me and give them to someone else that you feel deserves them more?

That is a lot to get out of one little line and one word capitalized. I can just turn around and ask..."Are YOU assuming that my resources (and decision for that matter) are collectively part of yours and free to be dispensed as you see fit?" ...."are you going to use force to take them away from me and give them to someone else that you feel deserves them more [than me because I want to see America continue to what i think is grow richer in its people]?

It was important enough for you to emphasize it the way you did, so yes, I wondered why you did that. The more you post, the more I can see that you favor liberal or socialist ideals to some extent.

I don't get what you mean to say in trying to flip my question around like that. I don't assume anything for you, nor do I hold you obligated to do anything, you are free to give your stuff away to whoever you want.

But I am free to not agree with you and I am free to keep mine to myself or my family if I so wish, and there isn't anything you can do about it, politically or otherwise. I will use force not to take from anybody else, but to protect what I rightfully worked for myself when someone tries to take it from me to give to someone else based only on their personal judgment of equity. That is not the principle that America was founded on.

That is what I meant by 'voluntary participation in those transactions'. I didn't buy that Escalade, so don't go digging into my pocket and tax dollars to go bailing someone out who made bad choices simply because they are from another culture and haven't learned how our system works yet.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

From what I understand yes, and rightfully so. And this, and my post above yours, is why:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed93.html

When are we going to wake up and do the same thing for the same reasons?

Not really. The same exaggerations and lies I was talking about earlier. Here are the real facts:

Mexico's General Law of Population sets out the rights and obligations of foreigners, as well as the different statuses associated with foreign immigration.

In general, foreign nationals are welcome to visit Mexico for a defined period of time to take part in non-remunerative activities (e.g. a holiday), and requirements for remunerative visits or longer stays (beyond 180 days) require special permits from the Mexican Consulate.

There are two kinds of permit: Non-Immigrant and Immigrant:

Non Immigrant Permits are for people who intend to visit Mexico for a specific purpose and then depart.
Immigrant Permits are for people who wish to live in Mexico, short or long term.
You do not have to surrender your natural Citizenship to be granted full resident status in Mexico. Full resident status entitles you to all rights and benefits of a Mexican National (live, work, claim state benefits and to pay taxes) but you cannot vote in Mexican elections. These permits may also prohibit work in specific industries. These are limited, and relate to bar and waiter/waitress work.

Immigrant Permits are issued to foreign nationals who have the intention of gaining permanent residency in Mexico. Under immigrant schemes, you are permitted to reside in the country, provided that you fulfil certain criteria (as specified by the type of permit) for a period of up to one year.

The permit must be renewed annually for a further four years in order for you to be able to apply for full residency status. If you wish to remain in Mexico as a "resident alien" after five years, you must apply for full residency status (there is a specific procedure to follow), and have this accepted. Once your application has been accepted and your "FM2" has been issued (see below) you are entitled to full rights and responsibilities as any other Mexican Citizen, with the exception of the right to vote.

(So, basically, exactly how it is in the US for a Naturalized Resident).

Also, I'm not sure where the 40,000 times daily wage came into play. It is 400 times the daily wage in a month. The daily wage is less than 50 dollars, so it works out to about 2000 dollars per month. I don't think 24,000 a year is a stupid or horrible requirement.

More:

Acquiring Mexican Citizenship is an involved process, and it is not easy to do. As a minimum, you must have been living in Mexico for 5 years (2 years under special circumstances) and have resident status. Marriage to a Mexican national may allow Citizenship without the residency requirement. For matters concerning the acquisition of Mexican Citizenship, seek professional advice and contact your local Mexican Consulate

Again, just like the US. Getting Citizenship here is a not an easy process at all.

So basically you can become a Mexican citizen but you cannot do anything that would make Mexico anything other than Mexico or attempt to changed things if you don't like it.

You described the requirements and process of obtaining residency in Mexico, and nothing more. With the exception of the investment requirement (#5), your post does not even address the enumerated items or show that they are incorrect or exaggerated. If they are incorrect I would like to know, because I think it's a damn good policy.

You did say that immigrants can claim public services (#4), but only on the same terms as Mexican citizens and only after they have put in five years to attain full resident status.

So 2 items of the 8 received a slight clarification, that doesn't make it all lies and exaggeration. How about the rest? Like facing jail for being there illegally (#8), foreigners not being allowed to vote even with full residency status (#2, #3), foreigners not being allowed to protest or wave flags other than the Mexican flag (#7), or having special privileges in their foreign language (#1), etc.

All your questions were answered by my post, but if you need more clarification there is google. All I can tell you is that I looked into moving to Mexico several years back, and it is nowhere near as hard as an unskilled worker coming to the US.

I think you are extremely confused on the law. Neither illegal immigrants nor naturalized residents in the United States can vote. I'm not sure why you think that they can.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

From what I understand yes, and rightfully so. And this, and my post above yours, is why:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed93.html

When are we going to wake up and do the same thing for the same reasons?

Not really. The same exaggerations and lies I was talking about earlier. Here are the real facts:

Mexico's General Law of Population sets out the rights and obligations of foreigners, as well as the different statuses associated with foreign immigration.

In general, foreign nationals are welcome to visit Mexico for a defined period of time to take part in non-remunerative activities (e.g. a holiday), and requirements for remunerative visits or longer stays (beyond 180 days) require special permits from the Mexican Consulate.

There are two kinds of permit: Non-Immigrant and Immigrant:

Non Immigrant Permits are for people who intend to visit Mexico for a specific purpose and then depart.
Immigrant Permits are for people who wish to live in Mexico, short or long term.
You do not have to surrender your natural Citizenship to be granted full resident status in Mexico. Full resident status entitles you to all rights and benefits of a Mexican National (live, work, claim state benefits and to pay taxes) but you cannot vote in Mexican elections. These permits may also prohibit work in specific industries. These are limited, and relate to bar and waiter/waitress work.

Immigrant Permits are issued to foreign nationals who have the intention of gaining permanent residency in Mexico. Under immigrant schemes, you are permitted to reside in the country, provided that you fulfil certain criteria (as specified by the type of permit) for a period of up to one year.

The permit must be renewed annually for a further four years in order for you to be able to apply for full residency status. If you wish to remain in Mexico as a "resident alien" after five years, you must apply for full residency status (there is a specific procedure to follow), and have this accepted. Once your application has been accepted and your "FM2" has been issued (see below) you are entitled to full rights and responsibilities as any other Mexican Citizen, with the exception of the right to vote.

(So, basically, exactly how it is in the US for a Naturalized Resident).

Also, I'm not sure where the 40,000 times daily wage came into play. It is 400 times the daily wage in a month. The daily wage is less than 50 dollars, so it works out to about 2000 dollars per month. I don't think 24,000 a year is a stupid or horrible requirement.

More:

Acquiring Mexican Citizenship is an involved process, and it is not easy to do. As a minimum, you must have been living in Mexico for 5 years (2 years under special circumstances) and have resident status. Marriage to a Mexican national may allow Citizenship without the residency requirement. For matters concerning the acquisition of Mexican Citizenship, seek professional advice and contact your local Mexican Consulate

Again, just like the US. Getting Citizenship here is a not an easy process at all.

So basically you can become a Mexican citizen but you cannot do anything that would make Mexico anything other than Mexico or attempt to changed things if you don't like it.

You described the requirements and process of obtaining residency in Mexico, and nothing more. With the exception of the investment requirement (#5), your post does not even address the enumerated items or show that they are incorrect or exaggerated. If they are incorrect I would like to know, because I think it's a damn good policy.

You did say that immigrants can claim public services (#4), but only on the same terms as Mexican citizens and only after they have put in five years to attain full resident status.

So 2 items of the 8 received a slight clarification, that doesn't make it all lies and exaggeration. How about the rest? Like facing jail for being there illegally (#8), foreigners not being allowed to vote even with full residency status (#2, #3), foreigners not being allowed to protest or wave flags other than the Mexican flag (#7), or having special privileges in their foreign language (#1), etc.

All your questions were answered by my post, but if you need more clarification there is google. All I can tell you is that I looked into moving to Mexico several years back, and it is nowhere near as hard as an unskilled worker coming to the US.

I think you are extremely confused on the law. Neither illegal immigrants nor naturalized residents in the United States can vote. I'm not sure why you think that they can.

No, but their children and those children's children can. And they will vote in the United States elections for leaders and policies of Mexico, not the United States.

And oh I don't know, something about millions of people calling themselves illegal immigrants marching in our streets demanding they have the same rights as US citizens (which would mean voting), acting like they have a say in our immigration policies (ie: the equivalent of having the same voice as one has when voting) and our politicians agreeing with them, or at least their inaction would indicate as much. Politicians looking to appease those crowds for their votes (why, if they don't vote), etc.

And no, my questions where not address in your post, for example, nowhere does it say anything about how a person illegally entering Mexico is dealt with. But you're right, there is Google; I just wanted to point out that your post did not cover 6 of the 8 of the points, it basically only clarified two of them, and even then, those two are still valid to some extent.

And it will be something I will be looking into with keen interest, because if that list of 8 things is correct, it will make Mexico a very enticing place to live for me when things here go to hell.
 

utfrodo54

Member
Mar 14, 2007
48
0
61
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: utfrodo54
Originally posted by: exdeath
are open to allowing OUR great resources to benefit others

This line of yours highlights much of my concern... it concerns me dearly that you made it a point to emphasize OUR... do you mean your resources or mine or just those like you willing to help others? Are you assuming that my resources are collectively part of yours and free to be dispensed as you see fit? And if I don't feel the same are you going to use force to take them away from me and give them to someone else that you feel deserves them more?

That is a lot to get out of one little line and one word capitalized. I can just turn around and ask..."Are YOU assuming that my resources (and decision for that matter) are collectively part of yours and free to be dispensed as you see fit?" ...."are you going to use force to take them away from me and give them to someone else that you feel deserves them more [than me because I want to see America continue to what i think is grow richer in its people]?

It was important enough for you to emphasize it the way you did, so yes, I wondered why you did that. The more you post, the more I can see that you favor liberal or socialist ideals to some extent.

I don't get what you mean to say in trying to flip my question around like that. I don't assume anything for you, nor do I hold you obligated to do anything, you are free to give your stuff away to whoever you want.

But I am free to not agree with you and I am free to keep mine to myself or my family if I so wish, and there isn't anything you can do about it, politically or otherwise. I will use force not to take from anybody else, but to protect what I rightfully worked for myself when someone tries to take it from me to give to someone else based only on their personal judgment of equity. That is not the principle that America was founded on.

good deal, we are on the same page. Earlier tho, you had a more "if u are american (whether born/natuarlized), then this is the page you need to be or else u are ruining it for me" position.

That is what I meant by 'voluntary participation in those transactions'. I didn't buy that Escalade, so don't go digging into my pocket and tax dollars to go bailing someone out who made bad choices simply because they are from another culture and haven't learned how our system works yet.

But then you go to that...and lose me as a supporter of your thoughts.

edit: im dumb and left out a word or 2
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: utfrodo54
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: utfrodo54
Originally posted by: exdeath
are open to allowing OUR great resources to benefit others

This line of yours highlights much of my concern... it concerns me dearly that you made it a point to emphasize OUR... do you mean your resources or mine or just those like you willing to help others? Are you assuming that my resources are collectively part of yours and free to be dispensed as you see fit? And if I don't feel the same are you going to use force to take them away from me and give them to someone else that you feel deserves them more?

That is a lot to get out of one little line and one word capitalized. I can just turn around and ask..."Are YOU assuming that my resources (and decision for that matter) are collectively part of yours and free to be dispensed as you see fit?" ...."are you going to use force to take them away from me and give them to someone else that you feel deserves them more [than me because I want to see America continue to what i think is grow richer in its people]?

It was important enough for you to emphasize it the way you did, so yes, I wondered why you did that. The more you post, the more I can see that you favor liberal or socialist ideals to some extent.

I don't get what you mean to say in trying to flip my question around like that. I don't assume anything for you, nor do I hold you obligated to do anything, you are free to give your stuff away to whoever you want.

But I am free to not agree with you and I am free to keep mine to myself or my family if I so wish, and there isn't anything you can do about it, politically or otherwise. I will use force not to take from anybody else, but to protect what I rightfully worked for myself when someone tries to take it from me to give to someone else based only on their personal judgment of equity. That is not the principle that America was founded on.

good deal, we are on the same page. Earlier tho, you had a more "if u are american (whether born/natuarlized), then this is the page you need to be or else u are ruining it for me" position.

That is what I meant by 'voluntary participation in those transactions'. I didn't buy that Escalade, so don't go digging into my pocket and tax dollars to go bailing someone out who made bad choices simply because they are from another culture and haven't learned how our system works yet.

But then you go to that...and lose me as a supporter of your thoughts.

I'm not sure why I lost you here, both sections you replied to cover the same principle, the second one just gives a concrete example in practice. The first part says I am free to keep what is mine if I want, and you say we are on the same page. The second part says I am free to not be required to bail someone out when they make a mistake, which implies that I am allowed to keep what is mine. But you disagree with that?

If you don't agree with the second part, then, that means if I am saving up for a new car and picking myself up out of poor circumstances, but an immigrant comes here, and also wants a new car, but can't afford to have that car and buy food at the same time right off the bat...

You are saying I am obligated to hold off on my life and my plans to pursue my life liberty and happiness, and that I should have to give him some of the money I was saving for my car so that he can get those things right away after I've been working and saving up for the same things all my life? While people choosing to do such things are admirable, the whole point is that there is no coercion.

If my taxes go up to support immigrants, it's the same thing, because thats less money that I get to save for my own things so someone else can get them more easily.

If you have issue with my apparent contradiction that "everybody has the right to do as they please if they don't try to control someone else" while at the same time insisting in a controlling way, "but you have to be American even if you don't want to".

Well thats because being American implies that you understand and respect the fact that you shouldn't seek to control the affairs of others.

And yes I know we as a country do it all the time at the international level, meddling with other countries and cultures, but I don't always agree with that either. Sometimes it's for legitimate reasons, often it is for bogus political reasons.
 

Socio

Golden Member
May 19, 2002
1,732
2
81
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

I live on the Border I can tell you from experience living here that basically that is all true. Another thing I can tell you is if you buy land in Mexico and if you are a foreigner or a if you have applied and received citizenship there they can take that land back anytime they want I don't mean pay you for it either however if your a natural born citizen they can not due to their constitution.

If you look at Mexico?s immigration policy you can see grounds for most of what you mentioned;


Mexico's immigration law

Mexico has a single, streamlined law, seeking to ensure that foreign visitors and immigrants are:

_ In the country legally.

_ Have the means to sustain themselves economically.

_ Not destined to be burdens on society.

_ Of economic and social benefit to society.

_ Of good character, with no criminal record.

The law also seeks to ensure that:

_ Immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor.

_ Foreign visitors do not violate their visa status.

_ Foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics.

_ Foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported.

_ Foreign visitors violating terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported.

_ Anyone who aids in illegal immigration is imprisoned.

 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

From what I understand yes, and rightfully so. And this, and my post above yours, is why:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed93.html

When are we going to wake up and do the same thing for the same reasons?

Not really. The same exaggerations and lies I was talking about earlier. Here are the real facts:

Mexico's General Law of Population sets out the rights and obligations of foreigners, as well as the different statuses associated with foreign immigration.

In general, foreign nationals are welcome to visit Mexico for a defined period of time to take part in non-remunerative activities (e.g. a holiday), and requirements for remunerative visits or longer stays (beyond 180 days) require special permits from the Mexican Consulate.

There are two kinds of permit: Non-Immigrant and Immigrant:

Non Immigrant Permits are for people who intend to visit Mexico for a specific purpose and then depart.
Immigrant Permits are for people who wish to live in Mexico, short or long term.
You do not have to surrender your natural Citizenship to be granted full resident status in Mexico. Full resident status entitles you to all rights and benefits of a Mexican National (live, work, claim state benefits and to pay taxes) but you cannot vote in Mexican elections. These permits may also prohibit work in specific industries. These are limited, and relate to bar and waiter/waitress work.

Immigrant Permits are issued to foreign nationals who have the intention of gaining permanent residency in Mexico. Under immigrant schemes, you are permitted to reside in the country, provided that you fulfil certain criteria (as specified by the type of permit) for a period of up to one year.

The permit must be renewed annually for a further four years in order for you to be able to apply for full residency status. If you wish to remain in Mexico as a "resident alien" after five years, you must apply for full residency status (there is a specific procedure to follow), and have this accepted. Once your application has been accepted and your "FM2" has been issued (see below) you are entitled to full rights and responsibilities as any other Mexican Citizen, with the exception of the right to vote.

(So, basically, exactly how it is in the US for a Naturalized Resident).

Also, I'm not sure where the 40,000 times daily wage came into play. It is 400 times the daily wage in a month. The daily wage is less than 50 dollars, so it works out to about 2000 dollars per month. I don't think 24,000 a year is a stupid or horrible requirement.

More:

Acquiring Mexican Citizenship is an involved process, and it is not easy to do. As a minimum, you must have been living in Mexico for 5 years (2 years under special circumstances) and have resident status. Marriage to a Mexican national may allow Citizenship without the residency requirement. For matters concerning the acquisition of Mexican Citizenship, seek professional advice and contact your local Mexican Consulate

Again, just like the US. Getting Citizenship here is a not an easy process at all.

So basically you can become a Mexican citizen but you cannot do anything that would make Mexico anything other than Mexico or attempt to changed things if you don't like it.

You described the requirements and process of obtaining residency in Mexico, and nothing more. With the exception of the investment requirement (#5), your post does not even address the enumerated items or show that they are incorrect or exaggerated. If they are incorrect I would like to know, because I think it's a damn good policy.

You did say that immigrants can claim public services (#4), but only on the same terms as Mexican citizens and only after they have put in five years to attain full resident status.

So 2 items of the 8 received a slight clarification, that doesn't make it all lies and exaggeration. How about the rest? Like facing jail for being there illegally (#8), foreigners not being allowed to vote even with full residency status (#2, #3), foreigners not being allowed to protest or wave flags other than the Mexican flag (#7), or having special privileges in their foreign language (#1), etc.

All your questions were answered by my post, but if you need more clarification there is google. All I can tell you is that I looked into moving to Mexico several years back, and it is nowhere near as hard as an unskilled worker coming to the US.

I think you are extremely confused on the law. Neither illegal immigrants nor naturalized residents in the United States can vote. I'm not sure why you think that they can.

No, but their children and those children's children can. And they will vote in the United States elections for leaders and policies of Mexico, not the United States.

And oh I don't know, something about millions of people calling themselves illegal immigrants marching in our streets demanding they have the same rights as US citizens (which would mean voting), acting like they have a say in our immigration policies (ie: the equivalent of having the same voice as one has when voting) and our politicians agreeing with them, or at least their inaction would indicate as much. Politicians looking to appease those crowds for their votes (why, if they don't vote), etc.

And no, my questions where not address in your post, for example, nowhere does it say anything about how a person illegally entering Mexico is dealt with. But you're right, there is Google; I just wanted to point out that your post did not cover 6 of the 8 of the points, it basically only clarified two of them, and even then, those two are still valid to some extent.

And it will be something I will be looking into with keen interest, because if that list of 8 things is correct, it will make Mexico a very enticing place to live for me when things here go to hell.

And someone's children and their children in Mexico can vote. What's your point?

No, my post did address all your points. You are just too lazy or dishonest to actually look. :)
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Socio
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

I live on the Border I can tell you from experience living here that basically that is all true. Another thing I can tell you is if you buy land in Mexico and if you are a foreigner or a if you have applied and received citizenship there they can take that land back anytime they want I don't mean pay you for it either however if your a natural born citizen they can not due to their constitution.

If you look at Mexico?s immigration policy you can see grounds for most of what you mentioned;

I understood that practice to be only in context with your violating the prerequisites you accepted when you moved there.

I.e.: you started protesting, committing crimes, breaking Mexican laws, etc, now you lost your privilege to be here and you lost your land on no money back basis because you didn't keep your end of the bargain. GTFO and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Thats great if thats the case, and thats the reason I want only legal immigration here to be enforced.

What will cause you to respect the native laws of your host country more:

1) sneaking across illegally unseen and unknown, using fake identities, knowing that you'll get free stuff and can demand amnesty, knowing you can sneak in again and the worst thing that anybody will do is send you back again, etc.

or:

2) knowing that you will be jailed with no rights or privileges if you enter illegally or break laws, and if you chose to do any of the above while you are here legally, we can confiscate your property, put you in jail, all the things we do to citizens when they break laws and we call them criminals, with the final step that we can kick you out at the end and you will never be allowed to return again.

 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: Socio
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

I live on the Border I can tell you from experience living here that basically that is all true. Another thing I can tell you is if you buy land in Mexico and if you are a foreigner or a if you have applied and received citizenship there they can take that land back anytime they want I don't mean pay you for it either however if your a natural born citizen they can not due to their constitution.

If you look at Mexico?s immigration policy you can see grounds for most of what you mentioned;


Mexico's immigration law

Mexico has a single, streamlined law, seeking to ensure that foreign visitors and immigrants are:

_ In the country legally.

_ Have the means to sustain themselves economically.

_ Not destined to be burdens on society.

_ Of economic and social benefit to society.

_ Of good character, with no criminal record.

The law also seeks to ensure that:

_ Immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor.

_ Foreign visitors do not violate their visa status.

_ Foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics.

_ Foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported.

_ Foreign visitors violating terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported.

_ Anyone who aids in illegal immigration is imprisoned.

I think you an exdeath are huffing spray paint or something. The US has the exact same laws. Illegal immigrants are breaking the laws to enter. You know -- laws don't just magically police themselves. The lack of enforcement at the US border is not Mexico's problem -- it is ours. We have laws just as tough as Mexico, but we do not enforce them, and we have a broken immigration system that leads to those laws not being followed.

By the way, from someone's earlier link about anchor babies and Parkway Hospital:

"Most immigrant patients have jobs and pay taxes, through paycheck deductions or property taxes included in their rent, administrators at the Dallas and Fort Worth hospitals said. At both institutions, they have a better record of paying their bills than low-income Americans do, the administrators said."

It also says that local money does NOT go toward paying for Medical Care. Medicaid pays it. And guess what? If they pay taxes like the Director says, they are paying into Medicaid. How is it any different than low income legal citizens having baby? Oops, it isn't. Except as you see the immigrants have a BETTER RECORD OF PAYING THEIR BILLS. Ooops.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: exdeath
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

From what I understand yes, and rightfully so. And this, and my post above yours, is why:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed93.html

When are we going to wake up and do the same thing for the same reasons?

Not really. The same exaggerations and lies I was talking about earlier. Here are the real facts:

Mexico's General Law of Population sets out the rights and obligations of foreigners, as well as the different statuses associated with foreign immigration.

In general, foreign nationals are welcome to visit Mexico for a defined period of time to take part in non-remunerative activities (e.g. a holiday), and requirements for remunerative visits or longer stays (beyond 180 days) require special permits from the Mexican Consulate.

There are two kinds of permit: Non-Immigrant and Immigrant:

Non Immigrant Permits are for people who intend to visit Mexico for a specific purpose and then depart.
Immigrant Permits are for people who wish to live in Mexico, short or long term.
You do not have to surrender your natural Citizenship to be granted full resident status in Mexico. Full resident status entitles you to all rights and benefits of a Mexican National (live, work, claim state benefits and to pay taxes) but you cannot vote in Mexican elections. These permits may also prohibit work in specific industries. These are limited, and relate to bar and waiter/waitress work.

Immigrant Permits are issued to foreign nationals who have the intention of gaining permanent residency in Mexico. Under immigrant schemes, you are permitted to reside in the country, provided that you fulfil certain criteria (as specified by the type of permit) for a period of up to one year.

The permit must be renewed annually for a further four years in order for you to be able to apply for full residency status. If you wish to remain in Mexico as a "resident alien" after five years, you must apply for full residency status (there is a specific procedure to follow), and have this accepted. Once your application has been accepted and your "FM2" has been issued (see below) you are entitled to full rights and responsibilities as any other Mexican Citizen, with the exception of the right to vote.

(So, basically, exactly how it is in the US for a Naturalized Resident).

Also, I'm not sure where the 40,000 times daily wage came into play. It is 400 times the daily wage in a month. The daily wage is less than 50 dollars, so it works out to about 2000 dollars per month. I don't think 24,000 a year is a stupid or horrible requirement.

More:

Acquiring Mexican Citizenship is an involved process, and it is not easy to do. As a minimum, you must have been living in Mexico for 5 years (2 years under special circumstances) and have resident status. Marriage to a Mexican national may allow Citizenship without the residency requirement. For matters concerning the acquisition of Mexican Citizenship, seek professional advice and contact your local Mexican Consulate

Again, just like the US. Getting Citizenship here is a not an easy process at all.

So basically you can become a Mexican citizen but you cannot do anything that would make Mexico anything other than Mexico or attempt to changed things if you don't like it.

You described the requirements and process of obtaining residency in Mexico, and nothing more. With the exception of the investment requirement (#5), your post does not even address the enumerated items or show that they are incorrect or exaggerated. If they are incorrect I would like to know, because I think it's a damn good policy.

You did say that immigrants can claim public services (#4), but only on the same terms as Mexican citizens and only after they have put in five years to attain full resident status.

So 2 items of the 8 received a slight clarification, that doesn't make it all lies and exaggeration. How about the rest? Like facing jail for being there illegally (#8), foreigners not being allowed to vote even with full residency status (#2, #3), foreigners not being allowed to protest or wave flags other than the Mexican flag (#7), or having special privileges in their foreign language (#1), etc.

All your questions were answered by my post, but if you need more clarification there is google. All I can tell you is that I looked into moving to Mexico several years back, and it is nowhere near as hard as an unskilled worker coming to the US.

I think you are extremely confused on the law. Neither illegal immigrants nor naturalized residents in the United States can vote. I'm not sure why you think that they can.

No, but their children and those children's children can. And they will vote in the United States elections for leaders and policies of Mexico, not the United States.

And oh I don't know, something about millions of people calling themselves illegal immigrants marching in our streets demanding they have the same rights as US citizens (which would mean voting), acting like they have a say in our immigration policies (ie: the equivalent of having the same voice as one has when voting) and our politicians agreeing with them, or at least their inaction would indicate as much. Politicians looking to appease those crowds for their votes (why, if they don't vote), etc.

And no, my questions where not address in your post, for example, nowhere does it say anything about how a person illegally entering Mexico is dealt with. But you're right, there is Google; I just wanted to point out that your post did not cover 6 of the 8 of the points, it basically only clarified two of them, and even then, those two are still valid to some extent.

And it will be something I will be looking into with keen interest, because if that list of 8 things is correct, it will make Mexico a very enticing place to live for me when things here go to hell.

And someone's children and their children in Mexico can vote. What's your point?

No, my post did address all your points. You are just too lazy or dishonest to actually look. :)

No it didn't:

For example:

8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

But your post only contains stuff like:

"These permits may also prohibit work in specific industries. These are limited, and relate to bar and waiter/waitress work."

-snip-

"The permit must be renewed annually for a further four years in order for you to be able to apply for full residency status."

-snip-

"Acquiring Mexican Citizenship is an involved process, and it is not easy to do."

No where does it mention anything, using just #8 as an example, the consequences for someone on Mexican soil illegally without adhering to the strictly control permit processes you outlined.

Does citizenship by birth in Mexico apply only to naturalized citizens, or anybody that happens to squeeze out a kid on Mexican soil? What happens to the child of a person who has entered Mexico without authorization, which so far as I know, results in jail for the parent for being there illegally?

And just to clarify, does Mexican law grant natural born citizen status to children of immigrants, naturalized citizens or not, knowing full and well that the children can vote and interfere in Mexican politics on behalf of the parents even though the parents are explicitly prohibited?

That is very interesting if that is the case. That implies that

a) there is less motivation or incentive for immigrants to take over Mexico the same way Mexican immigrants are overrunning the US (thats pretty obvious, Mexico's immigration policies are more sane than ours from what I'm learning thus far)

b) automatic citizenship by birth alone may not be the factor I feel it is (ie: less anchor babies if they weren't guaranteed free care)

Unless

c) automatic citizenship by birth IS a key element but it is exclusively exploited by Mexicans seeking to populate US territories, and nobody else (Canada also shares a large land border, is the anchor baby concept as popular on that side of the country as it is on this side?)
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Originally posted by: Mill
Originally posted by: Socio
Originally posted by: GeezerMan
I keep seeing this on the web. Anyone know if these are all true? I know at least some are true.

Immigrant laws of Mexico:
1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the
schools, no special ballots for elections, and all government business will be conducted in our language.
2. Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote, no matter how long they are here.
3. Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
4. Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No
welfare, no food stamps, no health care, nor any other
government assistance programs.
5. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
6. If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay, BUT options will be restricted. You are not allowed to own waterfront property. That property is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
7. Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no wavinga foreign flag, no political organizing, no ?bad-mouthing? our president or his policies. If you do you will be sent home.
8. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be sent straight to jail.

I live on the Border I can tell you from experience living here that basically that is all true. Another thing I can tell you is if you buy land in Mexico and if you are a foreigner or a if you have applied and received citizenship there they can take that land back anytime they want I don't mean pay you for it either however if your a natural born citizen they can not due to their constitution.

If you look at Mexico?s immigration policy you can see grounds for most of what you mentioned;


<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbar...tion=detail&pk=MEXICO-04-24-06----</a>"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbar...action=detail&pk=MEXICO-04-24-06--</a></a>
><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbar...m?action=detail&pk=MEXICO-04-24-06</a></a>
>Mexico's immigration law</a>

Mexico has a single, streamlined law, seeking to ensure that foreign visitors and immigrants are:

_ In the country legally.

_ Have the means to sustain themselves economically.

_ Not destined to be burdens on society.

_ Of economic and social benefit to society.

_ Of good character, with no criminal record.

The law also seeks to ensure that:

_ Immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor.

_ Foreign visitors do not violate their visa status.

_ Foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics.

_ Foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported.

_ Foreign visitors violating terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported.

_ Anyone who aids in illegal immigration is imprisoned.

I think you an exdeath are huffing spray paint or something. The US has the exact same laws. Illegal immigrants are breaking the laws to enter. You know -- laws don't just magically police themselves. The lack of enforcement at the US border is not Mexico's problem -- it is ours. We have laws just as tough as Mexico, but we do not enforce them, and we have a broken immigration system that leads to those laws not being followed.

By the way, from someone's earlier link about anchor babies and Parkway Hospital:

"Most immigrant patients have jobs and pay taxes, through paycheck deductions or property taxes included in their rent, administrators at the Dallas and Fort Worth hospitals said. At both institutions, they have a better record of paying their bills than low-income Americans do, the administrators said."

It also says that local money does NOT go toward paying for Medical Care. Medicaid pays it. And guess what? If they pay taxes like the Director says, they are paying into Medicaid. How is it any different than low income legal citizens having baby? Oops, it isn't. Except as you see the immigrants have a BETTER RECORD OF PAYING THEIR BILLS. Ooops.

The comments of one hospital vs. the bankrupt and closing trauma centers in the Southwest United States. The EMT guys I know talk about it all the time, how they have to drive Mexican patients back to the border and they basically eat the gas costs, much less the medical expenses.

As far as it being ALL our fault and Mexico having nothing to do with it, then why does the Mexican government provide maps, etc. and practically encourage illegal entry knowing it is against our laws, while expecting us to abide by their laws? Sure they aren't obligated to keep people from leaving or breaking another countries laws, but the least they can do is take a neutral stance instead of pro actively encouraging illegal activity. That is an outright violation of sovereignty and act of war.

Fox was a double talking asshat, but I've heard the new president is more conservative and going to things a lot differently and I'm looking forward to it.

I just hope we can get our own side of the problem taken care of, namely the inviting hand outs, politicians sitting on their hands, etc.