If you are poor w/3 children, the govt pays you $6k for filing your taxes

[Veliko]

Funny stuff you wrote there. Someone else is trashing capitalism even though he admits it's not really capitalism, while I point out how changes over the past 100 years led that fake "capitalism" into the near-destruction of the entire global economy.

Post some logical and factual arguments instead of your simplistic, emotional attacks.

So in response to me saying that you feel personally insulted when someone criticises capitalism, your reaction is to, um, feel feel personally insulted about it.

 

[Jhhnn]

"People riding welfare" refers to a subgroup of those on welfare, people who never work as a matter of lifestyle. As Kadarin succinctly put it:


Obviously neither Kadarin nor I have a problem with people going on welfare because they've had a great catastrophe and suddenly become unable to support themselves, for whatever reason. Our objection is to people for whom welfare is a choice, a way of life, one they make no effort to escape.

To object to this by saying that most welfare recipients do not do this is as nonsensical as objecting to me stating that I dislike dogs that bite me by stating that most dogs do not bite me. That most dogs do not bite me is not a good reason to not dislike dogs which do bite me.

You only allowed for 2 categories- people who are working and people who are riding welfare, tarring the vast, vast majority of welfare recipients. Simple fact. And you'll likely do the same thing repeatedly, spreading one of the propaganda canons of the right wing, welfare recipients as perpetual moochers. Only when called on it have you modified your original statement.

Both you and Kadarin ignore the economic realities in which we live, realities not created by the people at the bottom, but rather the people at the top. It's a system in which a very small percentage of people are relegated to the role of "welfare rider", and a system of massive inequality that relegates more & more people to relatively unproductive & unrewarding roles in an ongoing fashion. They'll receive assistance off & on their whole lives. You as much as admitted it earlier in that post, then proceeded to stigmatize them en masse in your usual propaganda mongering fashion.

 

[werepossum]

The feeling of injustice at the thought of those scamming the system inflates their number beyond the truth though.

No doubt.

You only allowed for 2 categories- people who are working and people who are riding welfare, tarring the vast, vast majority of welfare recipients. Simple fact. And you'll likely do the same thing repeatedly, spreading one of the propaganda canons of the right wing, welfare recipients as perpetual moochers. Only when called on it have you modified your original statement.

Both you and Kadarin ignore the economic realities in which we live, realities not created by the people at the bottom, but rather the people at the top. It's a system in which a very small percentage of people are relegated to the role of "welfare rider", and a system of massive inequality that relegates more & more people to relatively unproductive & unrewarding roles in an ongoing fashion. They'll receive assistance off & on their whole lives. You as much as admitted it earlier in that post, then proceeded to stigmatize them en masse in your usual propaganda mongering fashion.

Both Kadarin and I qualified exactly what we were referencing earlier in the thread. If you cannot keep this in mind, perhaps you should get a small notebook to write things down for later reference.

As far as unrewarding, virtually everyone's work is unrewarding. That is why people pay you to do it.

 

[jackstar7]

No doubt.

So can we devote a proportional amount of energy towards them based on their numbers in reality, rather than the inflated and emotional response that seems to be shouted the loudest?

 

[Incorruptible]

Unproveable assertion. It's easier to imagine you rapping your gold on the table, like Fagin.



Quote the passage. Explain the preamble, while you're at it.

You and your fellow leftist idiots claim I don't donate any money to charity. At least prove it instead of running away like cowards.

 

[Jhhnn]

No doubt.


Both Kadarin and I qualified exactly what we were referencing earlier in the thread.

Quote yourself, because I can't find it.

Thanks

 

[Jhhnn]

You and your fellow leftist idiots claim I don't donate any money to charity. At least prove it instead of running away like cowards.

You claimed to be a source of great benevolence. I pointed out that I saw it as unproveable one way or the other, and unlikely in my opinion.

How could either of us possibly "prove" anything about that?

 

[Kadarin]

Quote yourself, because I can't find it.

Thanks

I was not referring to people who are disadvantaged due to economic policy. I'm all for using government resources to help disadvantaged people who have fallen on hard times by circumstance; I was instead referring to a welfare system that itself allows for the creation and maintenance of a lazy underclass that chooses not to work even though they're able. The same underclass that fully expects the government to provide for them even though they choose not to give back to the system.

 

[werepossum]

Quote yourself, because I can't find it.

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabri View Post
What social contract?
When did the government accept responsibility for providing a job and roof for every person?
end quote

Wasting your time. If he set aside his hate, envy and Marxism there'd be nothing left of him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadarin View Post
I don't have a problem with the government providing a little assistance to the working poor. I do, however, have a problem with a society that allows for multiple generations of people to live on welfare without contributing back.
end quote

This, exactly. I'd much rather my tax dollars go toward helping someone who is working than someone who rides welfare as a lifestyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OverVolt View Post
I think this is incorrect. The tax credit is subtracted from your gross income lowering your tax liability. It is not free money.
end quote

Originally that was true, but now you can get much more than you ever paid in.

My post, in its entirety, including the posts to which I was responding, with the relevant sections of each in bold. Wipe off the foam, ease back on the reflexive hate, and ignore the dog whistle buzz words, and it's there in black and white.

 

[werepossum]

Quote yourself, because I can't find it.

Thanks

Just in case that one was too confusing, here is Kadarin's post with the relevant portion (meaning my response specifically to his post) of my post:

I don't have a problem with the government providing a little assistance to the working poor. I do, however, have a problem with a society that allows for multiple generations of people to live on welfare without contributing back.

SNIP
This, exactly. I'd much rather my tax dollars go toward helping someone who is working than someone who rides welfare as a lifestyle.

SNIP

Everything not specifically responding to Kadarin's post has been removed from the above and the relevant portions bolded for your convenience.

 

[Jhhnn]

I was not referring to people who are disadvantaged due to economic policy. I'm all for using government resources to help disadvantaged people who have fallen on hard times by circumstance; I was instead referring to a welfare system that itself allows for the creation and maintenance of a lazy underclass that chooses not to work even though they're able. The same underclass that fully expects the government to provide for them even though they choose not to give back to the system.

I did not take issue with your remarks, but rather those of werepossum.

OTOH, we also have a system where there aren't enough jobs to satisfy your conditions, either. Inevitably, some people will drop out of the race when they perceive it to be rigged against them, leaving greater opportunity for those who persist.

All too many Americans are under employed or periodically employed, sliding back & forth across the line of poverty. It's only the programs available that make it possible for many to come back above the line when they fall below it. They never acquire much in the way of reserves to depend upon, live hand to mouth even in the best of times.

 

[Jhhnn]

My post, in its entirety, including the posts to which I was responding, with the relevant sections of each in bold. Wipe off the foam, ease back on the reflexive hate, and ignore the dog whistle buzz words, and it's there in black and white.

Utterly dishonest. You claimed that you were replying to Kadarin, when you quoted Atreus in the objectionable post, #71. You also claimed to have made your position & distinctions clear even earlier, when in fact you did not. When challenged to quote yourself in that regard, you merely repeat what I found objectionable.

Twiddling with the quotes to make it seem otherwise is a dishonest act of desperation to disown your own words & deny their derogatory intent.

It's like Dick Cheney- "I never said that."

 

[CADsortaGUY]

I did not take issue with your remarks, but rather those of werepossum.

OTOH, we also have a system where there aren't enough jobs to satisfy your conditions, either. Inevitably, some people will drop out of the race when they perceive it to be rigged against them, leaving greater opportunity for those who persist.

All too many Americans are under employed or periodically employed, sliding back & forth across the line of poverty. It's only the programs available that make it possible for many to come back above the line when they fall below it. They never acquire much in the way of reserves to depend upon, live hand to mouth even in the best of times.

lol. I get a kick out of people like you who don't understand the real world and think things happen to them instead of happen DUE to them. Yes, people can be wronged by others or companies but if they weren't relying on others they could easily shift to a better or atleast as good as of a situation. But likely you won't understand that as the whole liberal/prog/etc movement thrives on reliance on others(gov't, employers, etc).
It's high time people take charge of their lives instead of expecting others to coddle them.


disclaimer: I have no problem with a TRUE safety net to help people up but continued reliance is inexcusable.

 

[werepossum]

Utterly dishonest. You claimed that you were replying to Kadarin, when you quoted Atreus in the objectionable post, #71. You also claimed to have made your position & distinctions clear even earlier, when in fact you did not. When challenged to quote yourself in that regard, you merely repeat what I found objectionable.

Twiddling with the quotes to make it seem otherwise is a dishonest act of desperation to disown your own words & deny their derogatory intent.

It's like Dick Cheney- "I never said that."

Hmm. Your post to Kadarin.

I did not take issue with your remarks, but rather those of werepossum.

OTOH, we also have a system where there aren't enough jobs to satisfy your conditions, either. Inevitably, some people will drop out of the race when they perceive it to be rigged against them, leaving greater opportunity for those who persist.

All too many Americans are under employed or periodically employed, sliding back & forth across the line of poverty. It's only the programs available that make it possible for many to come back above the line when they fall below it. They never acquire much in the way of reserves to depend upon, live hand to mouth even in the best of times.

My post directly quoting Kadarin's post, with that portion in bold.

Wasting your time. If he set aside his hate, envy and Marxism there'd be nothing left of him.


This, exactly. I'd much rather my tax dollars go toward helping someone who is working than someone who rides welfare as a lifestyle.


Originally that was true, but now you can get much more than you ever paid in.

Note that in my post that was so objectionable to you I used the exact same terminology when I said "This, exactly" when quoting Kadarin's post. Note that my "objectionable" language to Atreus was "And philosophically I prefer supporting people who are working (and low wage work is often hard work) to people riding welfare."

You're certainly a special kind of stupid, Sunshine. Mix that with your foamy rage and Marxist "mentality" and you always bring to the table that special trifecta of Internet fail. You are the Westboro Proggist Church, the rainbow of hate, envy, foamy rage, spittle and stupidity flavored Skittles, dude, and no one can take that away from you.

 

[werepossum]

The U.S. hasn't had unrestrained capitalism for at least 100 years.

Even Bono now realizes how powerful capitalism is.

http://prismmagazine.org/bono-on-capitalism-with-a-conscience/

But don't tell that to the dreamer "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" people.

If you're looking for an intellect and consciousness to which Jhhnn one day might reasonably aspire, I'd suggest "bonobo" rather than "Bono".

I know they say even a broken clock is right twice a day, but they did not take into account the extraordinary number and bizarre nature of hours on that particular clock's face. One could wait a very long time for the correct time to be "oatmeal".

 

[Pr0d1gy]

I can't for the life of me understand why so many people who have money hate poor people so much. It's pathetic, really.

 

[MongGrel]

lol. I get a kick out of people like you who don't understand the real world and think things happen to them instead of happen DUE to them. Yes, people can be wronged by others or companies but if they weren't relying on others they could easily shift to a better or atleast as good as of a situation. But likely you won't understand that as the whole liberal/prog/etc movement thrives on reliance on others(gov't, employers, etc).
It's high time people take charge of their lives instead of expecting others to coddle them.


disclaimer: I have no problem with a TRUE safety net to help people up but continued reliance is inexcusable.

You apparently have never had the enlightening experience of having the large corporation you work for screw you up the butt after many years and over the objections of Senior Engineers.

You're living in you're own little glass bubble there, bub.

 

[werepossum]

I can't for the life of me understand why so many people who have money hate poor people so much. It's pathetic, really.

Just to be clear, the people who hate poor people of those who believe they should get jobs, work hard, pull their own weight, earn some self-respect and thus eventually not be poor anymore, whereas the people who don't hate poor people of those who believe they should remain on welfare in eternal poverty because the work for which they are qualified is unrewarding, eh?

 

[OGOC]

So in response to me saying that you feel personally insulted when someone criticises capitalism, your reaction is to, um, feel feel personally insulted about it.

I feel personally insulted at your hypocrisy and lame posts. If you want to criticize capitalism, let's hear it. Post some logical and factual arguments instead of your simplistic, emotional attacks.

 

[OGOC]

The really scary thing is that we've done almost nothing to prevent a recurrence and some things to make it worse. For instance, when we bailed out the too-big-to-fail banks we made them strong enough to gobble up smaller banks, making the too-big-to-fail banks even bigger.

Also, the regulations make it even harder for small banks to compete since they don't have the resources the big ones do. That's why big companies may even like heavy regulation since it eliminates their competition for them. People will often say we need heavy regulation so big companies can't get too big and become a monopoly/oligopoly, yet that is what their heavy regulation promotes.

It's odd how the government can force interest rates artificially low, push or even force banks into giving loans people can't pay back, say it will cover any bad loans with taxpayer dollars, then bail out those banks when the loans aren't paid back, and then all of that gets blamed on "capitalism."

 

[werepossum]

Also, the regulations make it even harder for small banks to compete since they don't have the resources the big ones do. That's why big companies may even like heavy regulation since it eliminates their competition for them. People will often say we need heavy regulation so big companies can't get too big and become a monopoly/oligopoly, yet that is what their heavy regulation promotes.

It's odd how the government can force interest rates artificially low, push or even force banks into giving loans people can't pay back, say it will cover any bad loans with taxpayer dollars, then bail out those banks when the loans aren't paid back, and then all of that gets blamed on "capitalism."

lol Yep. It's the equivalent of a late friend who would go a bar, have a dozen drinks, then complain the next day that "those peanuts made me sick."

 

[Jhhnn]

lol. I get a kick out of people like you who don't understand the real world and think things happen to them instead of happen DUE to them. Yes, people can be wronged by others or companies but if they weren't relying on others they could easily shift to a better or atleast as good as of a situation. But likely you won't understand that as the whole liberal/prog/etc movement thrives on reliance on others(gov't, employers, etc).
It's high time people take charge of their lives instead of expecting others to coddle them.


disclaimer: I have no problem with a TRUE safety net to help people up but continued reliance is inexcusable.

Yeh, that's obviously true for the millions left unemployed in the wake of the Ownership Society scam, and the dearth of employment opportunities today.

What was it you were saying about the real world? Something about not relying on others, as if that John Wayne-ism somehow holds true in our specialized world.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

You guys don't get it, do you? It's called investment in the future. One couple making three future taxpayers or slaves (inmate labor).

 

[CADsortaGUY]

You apparently have never had the enlightening experience of having the large corporation you work for screw you up the butt after many years and over the objections of Senior Engineers.

You're living in you're own little glass bubble there, bub.

lol. I've been fired before so no glass bubble here. The reason I got fired? Someone's kid wanted my job. Aww..... poor me... oh wait I picked myself up after the gut punch and got a job the next monday(fired on a friday).

It amazes me how fragile our society has become. Bunch of f'n pussies that expect to be coddled and sheltered from harsh realities. Go make something of yourself instead of relying on others to hand things to you or provide opportunities. I'm not where I am today because I had things handed to me - I worked hard, learned, and searched out ways to better myself and position.

 

[Veliko]

lol. I've been fired before so no glass bubble here. The reason I got fired? Someone's kid wanted my job. Aww..... poor me... oh wait I picked myself up after the gut punch and got a job the next monday(fired on a friday).

It amazes me how fragile our society has become. Bunch of f'n pussies that expect to be coddled and sheltered from harsh realities. Go make something of yourself instead of relying on others to hand things to you or provide opportunities. I'm not where I am today because I had things handed to me - I worked hard, learned, and searched out ways to better myself and position.

The only fragile thing I'm seeing is your self-esteem; you have to come onto the Internet and put others down in order to keep it inflated.