I Am Proud To Call Myself A Liberal

[momeNt]

How is taxation (taxation itself, not progressive tax, flat tax, simply the concept of taxation) something that could even remotely be rectified with the definition in the OP?

 

[thraashman]

How is taxation (taxation itself, not progressive tax, flat tax, simply the concept of taxation) something that could even remotely be rectified with the definition in the OP?

I think you'd first have to explain how you feel taxation is in contrast to that definition.

 

[QuantumPion]

"Any man who must say, 'I am the king' is no true king".

The OP is confusing titles and desires with actions and reality.

...The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable." The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another.

In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different.

Statements like Marshal Pétain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality.

 

[momeNt]

I think you'd first have to explain how you feel taxation is in contrast to that definition.

Taxation is a transaction that is involuntary - taxes are taken by an authority under the threat of punishment.

How does that coincide with a free and generous heart, or someone who advocates free action. Every dollar you earn, is a dollar that you can do something with of your own free action. Every dollar taxed, is a dollar that you cannot use by exercising your own free action.

This sounds like a definition of a compassionate anarchist. Not a liberal.

 

[schneiderguy]

Daily reminder that "Liberals" are authoritarians that express their violent tendencies through government, and should be locked in a cage for the safety of society.

 

[hal2kilo]

Don't be silly. You know you want to. ^_^ It's been another dark winter, you have to celebrate the sun coming back with a few beers and maybe some shots of vodka. :thumbsup:



All this is stuff I'm not too familiar with. You're probably way more informed than I am.

Not to worry I realize this is not native history to you. What amazes me is that there are so many posters on this site claiming to know something about the politics of this country. I bet 80% of the people posting on this site have no idea about what i posted to you. History is a real bitch for some people.

 

[Moonbeam]

Many liberals here lack humility as well....so don't fool yourself as to the reason you only pick on conservatives. People are people. The sad thing to me is that we have so many here who define their self-identity with a political label that commonly polarizes their thought processes into an us vs. them mentality. They vigorously defend their ideology well beyond the point of rationality as if their very soul was in jeopardy...not realizing how much they've sacrificed for an illusion. No one needs to be especially smart or intellectually gifted to see this. All one can do is point and hope for the best. Hope you have a great trip to Europe...I'll try my best to keep all your alts in line while you're gone.

Don't forget what science says about the conservative brain, that it's conservative ones that rationalize away facts that are ideologically painful more than liberal ones do. Any notion of equivalency between conservatives and liberals, in the face of these newly discovered scientific facts, can only be the result of just such fact denial by a conservatively disposed brain. Probably why the vast majority of scientists are liberals. Science IS liberal thinking.

The irony, of course, is that the common attempt to equate all ideological identification as equally evil looks to be just another form of biased conservative rationalization. Liberal bias is bias toward evidence based, emotionally impartial thinking and I choose to be liberal as a superior mental condition.

I am not sure why you wouldn't want to join me. Read the definition of liberal and see the virtues. Then look at the Republican morons in Congress. It should make you weep.

 

[Greenman]

I dare say that many conservatives here are actually more liberal than many so-called "liberals" here.

And I'd agree with you.

 

[Vic]

There is no excuse for what FDR did. It was immoral and a clear violation of the Constitution. Not surprised leftists will defend him.

I absolutely agree that there is no excuse for the Japanese American internment. But it is conservatives, not liberals, that defend that action.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/08952...pi=SY200_QL40

 

[werepossum]

I absolutely agree that there is no excuse for the Japanese American internment. But it is conservatives, not liberals, that defend that action.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/08952...pi=SY200_QL40

A conservative agreeing with the action after the fact equals a liberal actually taking the action?

Two things. First, there was some justification for Japanese nations to be removed (though not interred) in Hawaii, as encoded radio transmissions were regularly picked up. We can agree that the internment was horrific without accepting that FDR just made it up from whole cloth. Second, in our rush to cry racism we forget that 49% of the interred were German, Italian, Hungarian and Romanian, nationalities whose nations had not just attacked us prior to a declaration of war. I know you aren't crying racism, but it's well for us all to remember that this was reasonably common at the time, with plenty of Americans also interred, detained or imprisoned in nations conquered by the Japanese and Germans. While in retrospect it was an evil, un-American and unnecessary thing to do, it's not exactly as though FDR suddenly shed his human disguise and operated as the bug-eyed blood-thirsty alien he really was.

 

[row]

"classical liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology belonging to liberalism in which primary emphasis is placed on securing the freedom of the individual by limiting the power of the government...

...it advocates civil liberties with a limited government under the rule of law, private property, and belief in laissez-faire economic liberalism."

in other words, todays conservative.

can't believe how fuckin stupid some of you are.

well actually i can.

 

[Jaskalas]

You call yourself a Liberal, what is a Liberal?

I would imagine it's someone who stands up for the people. Who believes in their freedom of association, their right to self determination, their civil liberties to effect the maximum extent of freedom possible. How does anyone manage to twist such ideals?

Tyranny of the majority is not how to protect minorities, ensure civil liberties, or keep a healthy democracy. Democracies work best when they are smallest, closest to the individual. As exampled by some of the smaller European countries. They get high marks because they serve a subset of a greater European people.

Our people have significant differences which are often at an impasse and cannot lead to a functioning government. Our two party dysfunction is a sign that we need to rethink politics. It cannot remain divide and conquer, or someday there is going to be a mistake and a shooting war could ignite. It almost happened this past week.

State's rights would achieve all our goals.

Drop the requirement of placing all our eggs in one basket. Drop your claims of dominion and ownership over others, over all 50 states, over all 310 million people. Let California elect Mexicans, Massachusetts enact universal health care, Colorado legalize drugs, Texas and Alaska can drill for oil, Nevada can control its desert. States need the freedom to control their own affairs and choose policy best for themselves.

You and your ideals do not need to control or dictate our way of life, nor each and every little aspect of our lives. It's called live and let live. You all really need to start practicing it because this idea that there are vassal States is only going to end with disenfranchised voters who feel desperate to force change.

The use of force on others is not good. You should not actually be striving to make it happen, or to back people into a corner where they have no choice but to use it. You can be progressive, you can be liberal. You can turn the page where we actually respect others and let them choose for themselves.

You can chart a future in your State and show us the way forward.
Or you can bind us all together in a pressure cooker and watch it all explode.

Which policy does a "Liberal" choose?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

lol, most of those definitions come from dictionary.com or were otherwise made up on the internet. Nice macro op.

EDIT: Ok, apparently the dictionary.com definition was actually yanked from a dictionary published in 1919, and 2) comes from some book on engineering in the context of a liberal (e.g. liberal arts) education.

 

[surfsatwerk]

If tomorrow all the things were gone I'd worked for all my life,
And I had to start again with just my children and my wife.
I'd thank my lucky stars to be living here today,
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom and they can't take that away.

And I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free.
And I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.

From the lakes of Minnesota, to the hills of Tennessee,
across the plains of Texas, from sea to shining sea,

From Detroit down to Houston and New York to LA,
Well, there's pride in every American heart,
and it's time to stand and say:

I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free.
And I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Most ideologues are about being seen to do something. That it may be wrong, or unevenly applied isn't all that important.

Luke 18:9 -To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.

12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

There's plenty of this in obesity threads.

 

[werepossum]

You call yourself a Liberal, what is a Liberal?

I would imagine it's someone who stands up for the people. Who believes in their freedom of association, their right to self determination, their civil liberties to effect the maximum extent of freedom possible. How does anyone manage to twist such ideals?

Tyranny of the majority is not how to protect minorities, ensure civil liberties, or keep a healthy democracy. Democracies work best when they are smallest, closest to the individual. As exampled by some of the smaller European countries. They get high marks because they serve a subset of a greater European people.

Our people have significant differences which are often at an impasse and cannot lead to a functioning government. Our two party dysfunction is a sign that we need to rethink politics. It cannot remain divide and conquer, or someday there is going to be a mistake and a shooting war could ignite. It almost happened this past week.

State's rights would achieve all our goals.

Drop the requirement of placing all our eggs in one basket. Drop your claims of dominion and ownership over others, over all 50 states, over all 310 million people. Let California elect Mexicans, Massachusetts enact universal health care, Colorado legalize drugs, Texas and Alaska can drill for oil, Nevada can control its desert. States need the freedom to control their own affairs and choose policy best for themselves.

You and your ideals do not need to control or dictate our way of life, nor each and every little aspect of our lives. It's called live and let live. You all really need to start practicing it because this idea that there are vassal States is only going to end with disenfranchised voters who feel desperate to force change.

The use of force on others is not good. You should not actually be striving to make it happen, or to back people into a corner where they have no choice but to use it. You can be progressive, you can be liberal. You can turn the page where we actually respect others and let them choose for themselves.

You can chart a future in your State and show us the way forward.
Or you can bind us all together in a pressure cooker and watch it all explode.

Which policy does a "Liberal" choose?

Well said.

If tomorrow all the things were gone I'd worked for all my life,
And I had to start again with just my children and my wife.
I'd thank my lucky stars to be living here today,
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom and they can't take that away.

And I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free.
And I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.

From the lakes of Minnesota, to the hills of Tennessee,
across the plains of Texas, from sea to shining sea,

From Detroit down to Houston and New York to LA,
Well, there's pride in every American heart,
and it's time to stand and say:

I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free.
And I won't forget the men who died, who gave that right to me.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land God bless the U.S.A.

But there isn't "pride in every American heart". A large number of Americans look on their country as a racist, evil, backward oligarchy that needs to give them more stuff and emulate Europe. A smaller but still significant number of Americans look on their country as having fallen from lack of faith. And a probably still larger number of Americans look on their country as simply an accident of birth, no better than any and probably worse than most.

 

[Mursilis]

I miss some of the classic liberals of old, the kind who still recognized the importance of the principles of classic liberalism. People like Burton Joseph, who convinced the ACLU to intervene in the case of National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, wherein a group of Illinois Nazis wanted to march through a Jewish community. It takes some serious principles to stick up for the free speech rights of fringe groups roundly detested by the general community.

Or liberals like Alan Dershowitz, a proponent of gun control (he has stated the 2nd Amendment has "no place in modern society"), who has enough intellectual integrity to recognize that an individual right to bear arms is in fact in the Constitution. He has stated:

"Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a public safety hazard don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like."

Or liberals like Nat Hentoff, avowed atheist, who was both pro-life and anti-death penalty because he recognized that if chip away at the right to exist of any one group, you erode it for us all.

There's so few of those kinds of liberals anymore, especially here.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The simplest approach is usually the best.

The dinosaurs died out millions of years ago, but jellyfish and gators are still around.

Liberals claim to be tolerant, but your tolerance only goes so far.

Liberals may be more tolerant than conservatives. But there will be a day when you tell a certain group "no, you can not do that."

This is coming from a Texan...rofl..hahahaaa

 

[werepossum]

I miss some of the classic liberals of old, the kind who still recognized the importance of the principles of classic liberalism. People like Burton Joseph, who convinced the ACLU to intervene in the case of National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, wherein a group of Illinois Nazis wanted to march through a Jewish community. It takes some serious principles to stick up for the free speech rights of fringe groups roundly detested by the general community.

Or liberals like Alan Dershowitz, a proponent of gun control (he has stated the 2nd Amendment has "no place in modern society"), who has enough intellectual integrity to recognize that an individual right to bear arms is in fact in the Constitution. He has stated:

"Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a public safety hazard don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like."

Or liberals like Nat Hentoff, avowed atheist, who was both pro-life and anti-death penalty because he recognized that if chip away at the right to exist of any one group, you erode it for us all.

There's so few of those kinds of liberals anymore, especially here.

Well said. We also need more conservatives who understand that if you support freedom, liberty, limited government power and equality, that should be for ALL Americans, not simply the ones who behave similarly to us.

 

[Mursilis]

Well said. We also need more conservatives who understand that if you support freedom, liberty, limited government power and equality, that should be for ALL Americans, not simply the ones who behave similarly to us.

Thank you, and well said about modern "conservatives", which is why I've dropped the label for myself. The movement's been hijacked by abolute idiots these days; it's an embarrassment, really.

 

[Retro Rob]

Can't fathom why someone would be proud to don a label which meaning changes depending on who's asked.

 

[JManInPhoenix]

I miss some of the classic liberals of old, the kind who still recognized the importance of the principles of classic liberalism. People like Burton Joseph, who convinced the ACLU to intervene in the case of National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, wherein a group of Illinois Nazis wanted to march through a Jewish community. It takes some serious principles to stick up for the free speech rights of fringe groups roundly detested by the general community.

Or liberals like Alan Dershowitz, a proponent of gun control (he has stated the 2nd Amendment has "no place in modern society"), who has enough intellectual integrity to recognize that an individual right to bear arms is in fact in the Constitution. He has stated:

"Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a public safety hazard don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like."

Or liberals like Nat Hentoff, avowed atheist, who was both pro-life and anti-death penalty because he recognized that if chip away at the right to exist of any one group, you erode it for us all.

There's so few of those kinds of liberals anymore, especially here.

+1

Well said. We also need more conservatives who understand that if you support freedom, liberty, limited government power and equality, that should be for ALL Americans, not simply the ones who behave similarly to us.

+1

Thank you, and well said about modern "conservatives", which is why I've dropped the label for myself. The movement's been hijacked by abolute idiots these days; it's an embarrassment, really.

+1


Quite refreshing to see comments like this.

 

[surfsatwerk]

But there isn't "pride in every American heart". A large number of Americans look on their country as a racist, evil, backward oligarchy that needs to give them more stuff and emulate Europe. A smaller but still significant number of Americans look on their country as having fallen from lack of faith. And a probably still larger number of Americans look on their country as simply an accident of birth, no better than any and probably worse than most.

I posted the lyrics for lulz, but with all sincerity I am a hopeless optimist when it comes to this country. I would not argue the validity of anything you wrote. But having the personal experience of being broke and in serious criminal trouble and eventually making it through that to being a gainfully employed citizen with his slice of the "American Dream" it's hard for me not to love this country warts and all.

Which is also why I consider myself a "liberal" and vote for politicians who identify themselves as "liberal". Not that it matters because I live in a red state and all my votes are wasted.

 

[werepossum]

Can't fathom why someone would be proud to don a label which meaning changes depending on who's asked.

Isn't that true of every political label? Andrew Sullivan calls himself a conservative; I disagree because for virtually every issue on which I've seen him weigh in, he claims to support the principle but in that particular case the people who disagree with the principle are correct. Many if not a plurality of conservatives would think the same of me as I am obnoxiously pro-gay marriage rights, support endangered and/or threatened animals and/or habitat over people, and can see good things among the bad in Obamacare among other divergences. There is no political movement which is uniform (and the closer to centrist, of necessity uniformity decreases) or universally correct. A group where everyone believes exactly the same thing is a cult, whether it's based on religion or an ideology.

If you believe one party or one ideology is correct on all issues, you aren't thinking. If one party or one ideology fits you completely, you aren't thinking. There should always be conflict, because without being challenged there will be no growth.

 

[werepossum]

I posted the lyrics for lulz, but with all sincerity I am a hopeless optimist when it comes to this country. I would not argue the validity of anything you wrote. But having the personal experience of being broke and in serious criminal trouble and eventually making it through that to being a gainfully employed citizen with his slice of the "American Dream" it's hard for me not to love this country warts and all.

Which is also why I consider myself a "liberal" and vote for politicians who identify themselves as "liberal". Not that it matters because I live in a red state and all my votes are wasted.

Well said, and congratulations for making it through your rough patch rather than simply giving up and blaming others. I too love this country warts and all.