Hypothetical question: If suicide is illegal, why isn't abortion?

[soulcougher73]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: soulcougher73
I think the abortion things just comes down to where you draw the line of when it is concidered a person. Unfortunaly a lot of people have different views so this issue will never be unanimous.

To me conception or zygot/fetus stage is not life. But it does have the potential to be life. That is how i rationalize my stance on pro-choice. You are just taken away the potential of life, not actually killing something that is alive. But to each their own. That is my reasoning behind it.

As I mentioned earlier, there are two lines of attack:

Conservative: A fetus/zygote is a human life. Therefore abortion is illegal.

Liberal: A woman has the right to do what she pleases with her body. It is immoral (slavish) for the state to control her. Therefore abortion should be legal.

I guess i dont look at it from a polictical stand point of liberal vs. conservative. To me it is more of a logics thing.

Question to ponder: Can you really kill something that doesnt even know it is alive?

To us people who are alive we are going to say yes, but to a fetus/zygote it wouldnt even know it died.

 

[Pacemaker]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Pacemaker
I believe (and I could be wrong) that the reason suicide is illegal is because authorities wouldn't have the right to stop someone from killing themselves if it was legal.

...and?

and...

as a doctor are you supposed to listen to the crying mother who wants you to save her child or tell her, "I can't save your child, he/she commited suicide"

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: Dari

You're more than welcome to leave.

You don't have to get your panties twisted because I ripped apart your argument, and everyone agreed with me.

I don't see everyone agreeing with you, not least I. Furthermore, you said "that's all I have to say" yet you keep posting.

Several have, none have disagreed, your debate was flawed from the start which is your problem.

I said that's all I have to say, meaning that's all I need to say. Meaning your original point, along with your complete lack of a rebuttal other than 'waaaah don't disagree with me', doesn't really require an in depth response. I "diverted" the topic because my "diversion" is where the actual argument on the matter lies.

Plus, all I'm really doing now is enjoyed the sweet taste of victory, I'm not really continuing the debate.

Please. Stop acting like a child. You never said anything definitive in your first post, just laying out opinion. The only thing I took seriously has already been responded and your response was "haha. no...". If you want to have a logical debate on zygote/fetus, which is a conservative attack-line, count me in, otherwise you're just asserting your opinion, which does not equal fact. Funny how you never responded to the fact that I said the primary reason behind pro-abortion opinions is simply the right to choose, a liberal attack line.

haha no. You're wrong. That's really all I have to say.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Deeko
I nominate this for stupidest thread of the century if you really think this will be a logical discussion and not a flamewar.

It's actually very simple. Without getting into my opinions on the subject, those that support legal abortions do not consider a zygote/fetus to be a human, and therefore, it is not murder.

Also, are you seriously dumb enough to think it's a "cut and dry case"? Have you ever watched a political debate?

edit: also, why is your point of reference suicide? Most people would go to murder as being a more apt comparison since abortion is much more akin to killing another person than yourself. I get the whole "right to choose/its my body why can't I have an abortion or kill myself" thing you're going for, but wow. I stand by my first statement (dumbest thread of the century).

This.

<--Pro Choice.

 

[Oyeve]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Pacemaker
I believe (and I could be wrong) that the reason suicide is illegal is because authorities wouldn't have the right to stop someone from killing themselves if it was legal.

...and?

And in this day an age if a cop didn't try to stop an attempted suicide because he is not bound legally to do so will end up getting sued by the family of the idiot. And they would sue even if the cop tried to stop the attemped sucider because he was denied of his right to off himself.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: soulcougher73

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: soulcougher73
I think the abortion things just comes down to where you draw the line of when it is concidered a person. Unfortunaly a lot of people have different views so this issue will never be unanimous.

To me conception or zygot/fetus stage is not life. But it does have the potential to be life. That is how i rationalize my stance on pro-choice. You are just taken away the potential of life, not actually killing something that is alive. But to each their own. That is my reasoning behind it.

As I mentioned earlier, there are two lines of attack:

Conservative: A fetus/zygote is a human life. Therefore abortion is illegal.

Liberal: A woman has the right to do what she pleases with her body. It is immoral (slavish) for the state to control her. Therefore abortion should be legal.

I guess i dont look at it from a polictical stand point of liberal vs. conservative. To me it is more of a logics thing.

Question to ponder: Can you really kill something that doesnt even know it is alive?

To us people who are alive we are going to say yes, but to a fetus/zygote it wouldnt even know it died.

When did you realize you were alive? When did you start remembering things? When did you start understanding things?

If you can answer those three questions and they all correspond to the same date then you can consider that to be the time you were first conscious. But that also means that, in your opinion, it is ok to kill you the moment before.

 

[MotF Bane]

Anybody else want some popcorn?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: soulcougher73

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: soulcougher73
I think the abortion things just comes down to where you draw the line of when it is concidered a person. Unfortunaly a lot of people have different views so this issue will never be unanimous.

To me conception or zygot/fetus stage is not life. But it does have the potential to be life. That is how i rationalize my stance on pro-choice. You are just taken away the potential of life, not actually killing something that is alive. But to each their own. That is my reasoning behind it.

As I mentioned earlier, there are two lines of attack:

Conservative: A fetus/zygote is a human life. Therefore abortion is illegal.

Liberal: A woman has the right to do what she pleases with her body. It is immoral (slavish) for the state to control her. Therefore abortion should be legal.

I guess i dont look at it from a polictical stand point of liberal vs. conservative. To me it is more of a logics thing.

Question to ponder: Can you really kill something that doesnt even know it is alive?

To us people who are alive we are going to say yes, but to a fetus/zygote it wouldnt even know it died.

When did you realize you were alive? When did you start remembering things? When did you start understanding things?

If you can answer those three questions and they all correspond to the same date then you can consider that to be the time you were first conscious. But that also means that, in your opinion, it is ok to kill you the moment before.

I have a question for you. What do you care if someone you've never met doesn't want to become a parent scrapes a few cells out of her body that may or may not have gone full term and become a person?

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: Dari

You're more than welcome to leave.

You don't have to get your panties twisted because I ripped apart your argument, and everyone agreed with me.

I don't see everyone agreeing with you, not least I. Furthermore, you said "that's all I have to say" yet you keep posting.

Several have, none have disagreed, your debate was flawed from the start which is your problem.

I said that's all I have to say, meaning that's all I need to say. Meaning your original point, along with your complete lack of a rebuttal other than 'waaaah don't disagree with me', doesn't really require an in depth response. I "diverted" the topic because my "diversion" is where the actual argument on the matter lies.

Plus, all I'm really doing now is enjoyed the sweet taste of victory, I'm not really continuing the debate.

Please. Stop acting like a child. You never said anything definitive in your first post, just laying out opinion. The only thing I took seriously has already been responded and your response was "haha. no...". If you want to have a logical debate on zygote/fetus, which is a conservative attack-line, count me in, otherwise you're just asserting your opinion, which does not equal fact. Funny how you never responded to the fact that I said the primary reason behind pro-abortion opinions is simply the right to choose, a liberal attack line.

No, no, no. You're still missing the point, which is why I didn't even feel it necessary to explain. I'm answering your question in the most direct way possible - the reason this comparison isn't made, is because you're looking at the wrong thing. The reason abortion is only considered is because they don't consider the fetus to be a human life yet, therefore it isn't murder, therefore the women have the right to choose. Whereas conservatives believe life begins at conception, and therefore it is murder. Suicide is considered illegal because it is taking a human life. You can't compare the two because it has nothing to do with the debate. Your point of "omgz its both about the women's right to do wat she wants with her body lol11!!1!!" has nothing to do with it.

The only "opinions" I asserted in my first post were of this being the stupidest thread of the year, and I stand by that.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: Pacemaker

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Pacemaker
I believe (and I could be wrong) that the reason suicide is illegal is because authorities wouldn't have the right to stop someone from killing themselves if it was legal.

...and?

and...

as a doctor are you supposed to listen to the crying mother who wants you to save her child or tell her, "I can't save your child, he/she commited suicide"

I thought the law's job was to protect society, including protect it from themselves. It's not illegal to attempt suicide, but it's the law's job to protect you from yourself. How many people do you know have gone to prison for attempting to commit suicide? lol

 

[thecoolnessrune]

I think a more relevant question would be while its a double homicide to kill a pregnant woman, but a woman can still kill the fetus on her own.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: CKent
Attempting suicide isn't illegal in any state, as far as I know.

If I'm reading this correctly, there are a few states where it is.

 

[smittybg]

i got a better one. if a driver gets in a car wreck and kills a pregnant woman he get 2 counts of murder ....but she can abort the baby and its ok.

 

[manlymatt83]

oh god.

/lawnchair

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: OdiN
If murder is illegal, why isn't abortion?

this

 

[Capt Caveman]

BAN

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Oyeve
Who says you are not allowed to kill yourself? That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

"I want to kill myself, but it's illegal so I won't"

The law says so. That can have huge implications as far as insurance is concerned. Similarily, a woman that chooses abortion leaves the father with no choice in the matter, which is odd considering he was a partner in the creation of the child.

this too.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko
I nominate this for stupidest thread of the century if you really think this will be a logical discussion and not a flamewar.

It's actually very simple. Without getting into my opinions on the subject, those that support legal abortions do not consider a zygote/fetus to be a human, and therefore, it is not murder.

Also, are you seriously dumb enough to think it's a "cut and dry case"? Have you ever watched a political debate?

I qualified my statement so try reading it again. And there is no instantaneous time when a zygote/fetus turns into a human, it always is so that argument doesn't make much sense. But you're diverting the topic because I'm comparing two events that deals directly with a woman's choice: suicide and abortion. Either they both should be illegal or legal.

back this up with scientific evidence that you claim to have

(BTW: Scientific/Medical data doesn't agree with you)

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko
I nominate this for stupidest thread of the century if you really think this will be a logical discussion and not a flamewar.

It's actually very simple. Without getting into my opinions on the subject, those that support legal abortions do not consider a zygote/fetus to be a human, and therefore, it is not murder.

Also, are you seriously dumb enough to think it's a "cut and dry case"? Have you ever watched a political debate?

I qualified my statement so try reading it again. And there is no instantaneous time when a zygote/fetus turns into a human, it always is so that argument doesn't make much sense. But you're diverting the topic because I'm comparing two events that deals directly with a woman's choice: suicide and abortion. Either they both should be illegal or legal.

haha no. You're wrong. That's really all I have to say.

Thanks. Bye.

Thanks for playing! It was a cute try.

You're more than welcome to leave.

Could you please ban yourself?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: Dari

You're more than welcome to leave.

You don't have to get your panties twisted because I ripped apart your argument, and everyone agreed with me.

I don't see everyone agreeing with you, not least I. Furthermore, you said "that's all I have to say" yet you keep posting.

Several have, none have disagreed, your debate was flawed from the start which is your problem.

I said that's all I have to say, meaning that's all I need to say. Meaning your original point, along with your complete lack of a rebuttal other than 'waaaah don't disagree with me', doesn't really require an in depth response. I "diverted" the topic because my "diversion" is where the actual argument on the matter lies.

Plus, all I'm really doing now is enjoyed the sweet taste of victory, I'm not really continuing the debate.

Please. Stop acting like a child. You never said anything definitive in your first post, just laying out opinion. The only thing I took seriously has already been responded and your response was "haha. no...". If you want to have a logical debate on zygote/fetus, which is a conservative attack-line, count me in, otherwise you're just asserting your opinion, which does not equal fact. Funny how you never responded to the fact that I said the primary reason behind pro-abortion opinions is simply the right to choose, a liberal attack line.

No, no, no. You're still missing the point, which is why I didn't even feel it necessary to explain. I'm answering your question in the most direct way possible - the reason this comparison isn't made, is because you're looking at the wrong thing. The reason abortion is only considered is because they don't consider the fetus to be a human life yet, therefore it isn't murder, therefore the women have the right to choose. Whereas conservatives believe life begins at conception, and therefore it is murder. Suicide is considered illegal because it is taking a human life. You can't compare the two because it has nothing to do with the debate. Your point of "omgz its both about the women's right to do wat she wants with her body lol11!!1!!" has nothing to do with it.

The only "opinions" I asserted in my first post were of this being the stupidest thread of the year, and I stand by that.

You must be confused because you keep putting the conservative argument into the liberal's mouth and twist it 180 degrees. Liberals don't argue that point. They don't WANT to argue that point. Only conservatives do. Reversely, conservatives don't want to argue about state control of a person's body or about women's right.

 

[yours truly]

its not illegal, not in the uk anyway. cant prosecute a stiff

 

[Deeko]

Don't scroll up if you don't want to be proven wrong on the whole 'liberals don't think that' thing.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: Dari
You must be confused because you keep putting the conservative argument into the liberal's mouth and twist it 180 degrees. Liberals don't argue that point. They don't WANT to argue that point. Only conservatives do. Reversely, conservatives don't want to argue about state control of a person's body or about women's right.

snip.

No. You are wrong.

I is liberal. I argue fetus is not human life until a certain point.

Why the hell did you make an abortion thread in OT? Is P & N.


Fail.
Fail.
Fail.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Deeko
I nominate this for stupidest thread of the century if you really think this will be a logical discussion and not a flamewar.

It's actually very simple. Without getting into my opinions on the subject, those that support legal abortions do not consider a zygote/fetus to be a human, and therefore, it is not murder.

Also, are you seriously dumb enough to think it's a "cut and dry case"? Have you ever watched a political debate?

I qualified my statement so try reading it again. And there is no instantaneous time when a zygote/fetus turns into a human, it always is so that argument doesn't make much sense. But you're diverting the topic because I'm comparing two events that deals directly with a woman's choice: suicide and abortion. Either they both should be illegal or legal.

back this up with scientific evidence that you claim to have

(BTW: Scientific/Medical data doesn't agree with you)

You cannot prove a negative. However, if you'd like to prove that there is such a time, please provide the scientific evidence. I'm waiting...

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
BAN

Thats it, hide it out of sight along with ignorance and want.