How to Talk to Your Jewish Friends About Israel

[imported_dna]

That's not a context, that's a document which aims to make a point.

A context would be the fact that Jews purchased quite a bit of land even prior to 1948, and the Arab owners sold them that land; recently I've read that in the 1920's, for example, the majority of land purchased by Jews was from absentee landlords.

So, in the context of that historical fact, the quote you made makes no sense in that he would think that they stole, but rather -- as I said -- hat he was putting himself in the Arab's shoes.

Besides the land purchases I mentioned, there are plenty of other details, like the fact that Jewish immigration sparked urbanization, and a change in the economy, a change that the Fellahs did not expect and were not prepared for -- particularly due to lack of progress and stagnant economy under the currupt rule of the Ottomans.

Basically, power shifted, and those who didn't like the shift of power naturally blamed the Jews, instead of adapting.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: dna
That's not a context, that's a document which aims to make a point.

A context would be the fact that Jews purchased quite a bit of land even prior to 1948, and the Arab owners sold them that land; recently I've read that in the 1920's, for example, the majority of land purchased by Jews was from absentee landlords.

So, in the context of that historical fact, the quote you made makes no sense in that he would think that they stole, but rather -- as I said -- hat he was putting himself in the Arab's shoes.

Besides the land purchases I mentioned, there are plenty of other details, like the fact that Jewish immigration sparked urbanization, and a change in the economy, a change that the Fellahs did not expect and were not prepared for -- particularly due to lack of progress and stagnant economy under the currupt rule of the Ottomans.

Basically, power shifted, and those who didn't like the shift of power naturally blamed the Jews, instead of adapting.

So how much is ?quiet a bit?? What was the percentage of land ownership by Jews? Please enlighten us.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Siwy
So how much is ?quiet a bit?? What was the percentage of land ownership by Jews? Please enlighten us.

From the numbers I found, Jews owned 1874.69km² (converted from acres) of land. The total area of pre-1967 Israel was 20,770km²; now lets make life easier and subtract the desert area known as the Negev: 20,770 - 13,000 = 7,770km². Also, we need to substract 1% of the overall area, since 1% is watter (Kineret, part of the Dead Sea), so the we end up with 5693km².

So, precentage-wise, we get roughly 33%.

I'd say that's pretty respectable, especially when you can't claim that Arabs owned each and every inch of the 67% left.

EDIT: actually 33% and not 33.3%.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Siwy
So how much is ?quiet a bit?? What was the percentage of land ownership by Jews? Please enlighten us.

From the numbers I found, Jews owned 1874.69km² (converted from acres) of land. The total area of pre-1967 Israel was 20,770km²; now lets make life easier and subtract the desert area known as the Negev: 20,770 - 13,000 = 7,770km². Also, we need to substract 1% of the overall area, since 1% is watter (Kineret, part of the Dead Sea), so the we end up with 5693km².

So, precentage-wise, we get roughly 33%.

I'd say that's pretty respectable, especially when you can't claim that Arabs owned each and every inch of the 67% left.

EDIT: actually 33% and not 33.3%.

Let me get this straight. You took the total area of the land that Jews owned in the whole of Palestine and subtracted it from the pre-1967 land? Or am I missing something?

Source for your numbers would also be nice

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Siwy
Let me get this straight. You took the total area of the land that Jews owned in the whole of Palestine and subtracted it from the pre-1967 land? Or am I missing something?

Source for your numbers would also be nice

I got the number for purchased land here (around the bottom of the page). The other numbers I got from Wikipedia, so just lookup "Israel" and "Negev".

I don't kow how you came up with that subtraction formula, since that is clearly not what I did.

I took the amount of land owned by Jews circa. 1947, and then divided it by X.
In this case X is equal to the area of pre-1967 Israel (obviously post-1948), then subtracted the desert and the area represented by the Galilea Sea and part of the Dead Sea.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: dna
I got the number for purchased land here (around the bottom of the page). The other numbers I got from Wikipedia, so just lookup "Israel" and "Negev".

I don't kow how you came up with that subtraction formula, since that is clearly not what I did.

I took the amount of land owned by Jews circa. 1947, and then divided it by X.
In this case X is equal to the area of pre-1967 Israel (obviously post-1948), then subtracted the desert and the area represented by the Galilea Sea and part of the Dead Sea.

That is not a very realistic calculation ~ you?re assuming that Jewish land ownership was evenly distributed throughout the whole Palestinian land, which was not the case.

And why would you remove Negev area from the calculation? Wasn?t that land also annexed by Israel?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Siwy
That is not a very realistic calculation ~ you?re assuming that Jewish land ownership was evenly distributed throughout the whole Palestinian land, which was not the case.

I wasn't assuming that at all, nor is it relevant. In fact, the partition plan allocated even less than what ended up being pre-1967 Israel.

And why would you remove Negev area from the calculation? Wasn?t that land also annexed by Israel?

Since I was going for land that is arable, or on which you could build a town/city with relative ease (60 years ago).

Also, Israel didn't annex the Negev; they were to receive it according to the Partition Plan, so in that sense they were getting screwed getting a piece of land that you can't do much with.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Siwy
That is not a very realistic calculation ~ you?re assuming that Jewish land ownership was evenly distributed throughout the whole Palestinian land, which was not the case.

I wasn't assuming that at all, nor is it relevant. In fact, the partition plan allocated even less than what ended up being pre-1967 Israel.

And why would you remove Negev area from the calculation? Wasn?t that land also annexed by Israel?

Since I was going for land that is arable, or on which you could build a town/city with relative ease (60 years ago).

Also, Israel didn't annex the Negev; they were to receive it according to the Partition Plan, so in that sense they were getting screwed getting a piece of land that you can't do much with.

Looking at your source it seems that you took a TOTAL of Jewish land ownership, which was 463,000 acres (1,874 sq km) ~ you did not divide it by X, how much more inacurate can you get?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Siwy
Looking at your source it seems that you took a TOTAL of Jewish land ownership, which was 463,000 acres (1,874 sq km) ~ you did not divide it by X, how much more inacurate can you get?

Accuracy is'nt the problem, but comprehension.
Here it is in a more mathematical fashion.

F = X / Y
X = Land owned by Jews in 1947
Y = A - B - C
A = pre-1967 Israel
B = Negev
C = Water (1% of A)

At the end we get F = 33%

Clear enough?

 

[Siwy]

Comprehension isn?t the problem ~ the problem is inadequate explanation

And the issue still remains ~ why do you use TOTAL Jewish owned land in your calculations, as opposed to Jewish owned land inside the pre-1967 borders?

 

[imported_dna]

I was trying to work with some baseline, and since Arabs many times argue for the return to the 1967 lines, then it seemed like a good choice.

Also, it seems rather pointless to use the total land owned by Jews after the state was erected, as then the land belonged to the state, something you cannot claim regarding the time during the British mandate.

The whole point of this was to show that the myth of land-theft doesn't hold, and the Jews had legitimately acquired a respectable amount of land prior to 1948, and some of it directly from Arabs who were well compensated.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: dna
I was trying to work with some baseline, and since Arabs many times argue for the return to the 1967 lines, then it seemed like a good choice.

Also, it seems rather pointless to use the total land owned by Jews after the state was erected, as then the land belonged to the state, something you cannot claim regarding the time during the British mandate.

The whole point of this was to show that the myth of land-theft doesn't hold, and the Jews had legitimately acquired a respectable amount of land prior to 1948, and some of it directly from Arabs who were well compensated.

Well, I?m trying to figure out how much land was owned by Jews, Arabs and governing body in the area that would become Israel in 1948 ~ since that is the land that is considered stolen by many people and that is what started the conflict.

So, if we take a look at Israel?s land at its inception and forget about all the land and people outside of it ~ do you still hold that Jews owned 33% of that land? If so, how much land was owned by Arabs, how much of it was public land?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Siwy
So, if we take a look at Israel?s land at its inception and forget about all the land and people outside of it ~ do you still hold that Jews owned 33% of that land? If so, how much land was owned by Arabs, how much of it was public land?

To me, trying to figure that number seems pointless. I prefer to focus on the amount of land owned prior to 1948, since that's when Israel came to be (well, the armistice of 1949 set the broders).

If start calculating in post 1948 -- population and land-ownership wise -- then it's starting to get tricky, particularly due to the Palestinians refugees (I'll argue that they left at the behest of the neighboring countries, but that's a whole different subject). After 1948/9, the demographics change radically, part due to the refugee issue mentioned above, but also due to great influx of Jews from Arab countries (left due to violence, etc), as well as from Europe, so that is why I say it is pointless.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: dna

Originally posted by: Siwy
So, if we take a look at Israel?s land at its inception and forget about all the land and people outside of it ~ do you still hold that Jews owned 33% of that land? If so, how much land was owned by Arabs, how much of it was public land?

To me, trying to figure that number seems pointless. I prefer to focus on the amount of land owned prior to 1948, since that's when Israel came to be (well, the armistice of 1949 set the broders).

If you re-read my post above you will see that that is what I?m talking about, land ownership prior/at Israel?s inception, ?area that would become Israel in 1948?

So now that we have Israeli land ownership percentage, can I see your calculation for public land ownership and Arab land ownership using the same formula you used above?

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Siwy
If you re-read my post above you will see that that is what I?m talking about, land ownership prior/at Israel?s inception, ?area that would become Israel in 1948?

So now that we have Israeli land ownership percentage, can I see your calculation for public land ownership and Arab land ownership using the same formula you used above?

Since I do not plan on doing the legwork for you, I suggest you check out the Partition Plan. Other than that, I don't know where you're going with it.

Anyway, I re-read your post, and I must say that the fact that some Arabs were to become Israeli citizens does not mean that the land was stolen -- no more than one would say that the land was stolen when the Brits took over from the Ottoman empire. Also, people argue that (what was) the demographic change, i.e. influx of Jews, is tantamaunt to theft; but by that token, I can argue that influx of Mexicans to the USA is also theft.

In any case, I think I managed to argue my point that prior to 1948 Jews bought land, and didn't "steal" it people like to claim.

 

[Lemon law]

On that point I will agree with DNA---for a very long time--partly due to a back to Israel movement in Russia---jews were coming to the then British Mandate and buying land on the open market---competing with other buyers---with no group being favored. Although its important to point out, before 1948 a widespread terrorism campaign was already underway in the British Mandate led by mainly jewish terrorist---and at least three of whom --later became the Israelie prime minister.

It was only after the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948---and the invasion by neighboring arab countries---that the wholesale issues of theft along with long term Israelie and Arab national stupidity comes up.-------I still maintain that if we try to right all past wrongs on both sides, we will become so bogged down that we can't see this is about the future and not about an unchangable past.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Although its important to point out, before 1948 a widespread terrorism campaign was already underway in the British Mandate led by mainly jewish terrorist---and at least three of whom --later became the Israelie prime minister.

I don't see the relevance of this to the land issue we were talking about, and I would like to point out -- at the risk of being called an appologist -- that the terrorism acts conducted were not of the nature that we are accustomed to today. They focused on military installation, released interned immigrants, and tried to avoid bloodshed as much as possible (the hotel case a a debatable exception). That is to be contrasted with what we see today in the form of suicide bombers and outright murder of civilians.

 

[Polish3d]

I don't really care about Israel's 'war policy' so much as I do the wisdom of having a dependent such as Israel which causes Americans to be killed.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Frackal
I don't really care about Israel's 'war policy' so much as I do the wisdom of having a dependent such as Israel which causes Americans to be killed.

Huh? Where did this come from? Care to elaborate?

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: dna
Since I do not plan on doing the legwork for you, I suggest you check out the Partition Plan. Other than that, I don't know where you're going with it.

I was just trying to show you how full of crap you are. If you did your ?legwork? you?d realize it yourself.

According to your calculations Jews owned 33% of the land:

X = 1,874 sq km (Land owned by Jews in 1947 )
Y = 5693 sq km (pre-1967 Israel minus Negev and Water)
F = 33% (X / Y)

If we use your formula to calculate ownership of the rest of the land we get this:

X = 8,940 ? 1,874 = 7066 sq km (Total cultivable land minus land owned by Jews)
Y = 5693 sq km (pre-1967 Israel minus Negev and Water)
F = 124% (X / Y)

So according to your calculation Jews owned 33% of the land while Arabs and others owned 124%? How is that possible?

In any case, I think I managed to argue my point that prior to 1948 Jews bought land, and didn't "steal" it people like to claim.

You think you managed to argue your point, but you did no such thing. You just embarrassed yourself by showing your lack of knowledge about the issue and by your illogical math.

 

[piasabird]

And many of your friends probably feel defensive when it comes to Israel. They are defending themselves against the voice of their own conscience. They are morally sensitive people. That?s what is so frustrating. They care deeply about social justice in every other arena. But there is something peculiar about this Israel thing that seems to throw their normal ethical compass out of whack.

Above is a quote.

What does this statement mean?

"They are morally sensitive people."

So are all liberals or people who oppose what Isreal does Immoral and Insensitive? Mostly I have found that most Americans just care about money and morality is a second issue. I see people everywhere lying, stealing and finding excuses for whatever they want to do or justify.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Siwy
So according to your calculation Jews owned 33% of the land while Arabs and others owned 124%? How is that possible?

You must have failed math class, since you changed the value of X, without altering the value of Y.
You should've learned that when you get over 100% you've done something wrong.

I suggest you don't use my total land value, in one point, and then the total from Wikipedia in another.

Also, even if we disregard my calculation, and rely on the value from Wikipedia, then that is stated as 20%, and is still respectable.

You think you managed to argue your point, but you did no such thing. You just embarrassed yourself by showing your lack of knowledge about the issue and by your illogical math.

Heh, you're funny.
You start with a biased point of view that "land was stolen", and then don't even explain how it was stolen.

I await to see your argument.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: dna
You must have failed math class, since you changed the value of X, without altering the value of Y.

I didn?t change the value of X, because I shouldn?t according to your formula. You took the total land owned by Jews, I took the rest of the total land owned by Arabs and others.

You should've learned that when you get over 100% you've done something wrong.

This is your formula! And you are right, it is wrong!

I suggest you don't use my total land value, in one point, and then the total from Wikipedia in another.

If you use total Jewish land which was 1,874,000 sq km, why cannot I use total of the rest of the cultivable land which was 7,066,000 sq km? See this is your logical fallacy, which for some reason you cannot grasp.

You cannot use the total Jewish land ownership in the whole of Palestine to calculate the percentage of Jewish land ownership in 1948 Israel.

Also, even if we disregard my calculation, and rely on the value from Wikipedia, then that is stated as 20%, and is still respectable.

But if we disregard non-cultivable land, as you conveniently did in your formula to get your inflated 33%, it leaves us with an unrespectable 7% Jewish land ownership.

 

[Wag]

Sometimes this forum disgusts me.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: Siwy
I didn?t change the value of X, because I shouldn?t according to your formula. You took the total land owned by Jews, I took the rest of the total land owned by Arabs and others.

Wow, you really are dense.
Here is how it is supposed to be (bold where the change is):

X =8,940 ? 1,874 = 7066 sq km (Total cultivable land minus land owned by Jews)
Y = 8940 sq km (this is what I meant by using different totals)
F = 79% (X / Y)
Jewish ownership = 21%

But if we disregard non-cultivable land, as you conveniently did in your formula to get your inflated 33%, it leaves us with an unrespectable 7% Jewish land ownership.

My 33% isn't so far from 21%, and is still respectable.
If Jewish ownership was 7%, then Arab ownership was 26%, so don't get all worked up yet.

We've been dabating numbers for a while now, and you are yet to explain how land was stolen.